Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[LNW-GW Joint]

So somebody is paying for two Merseyrail fleets for the forseeable future?
Can't be good for the local taxpayer or whoever funds Merseytravel.

 

[Skie]

So will it be a TPE 2017 i.e we see one run close to New Year's Eve for the sake of "we ran one in 2021?"

No real need to do that though, the ownership, franchise and shareholder situation doesn’t compare.

They could do a manager run service as soon as the first train is formally accepted, but it’s be purely for PR reasons and could backfire if the full service is then months behind.

 

[Taunton]

Has there ever been a rolling stock procurement as long as this? The whole process must've been going on for a decade or so now. We may as well start tentively planning the 777's replacement at this rate.

Isn't that how it's meant to be nowadays? Compared to the old days, complete the first one, month of trials, into service (because it worked well), rest follow as they are all completed, it is now de rigeur to complete building of the whole fleet before the first one enters service.

Hasn't the Glasgow Underground also had the whole new fleet built, delivered and paid for, but none have entered service?

 

[James James]

Has there ever been a rolling stock procurement as long as this? The whole process must've been going on for a decade or so now. We may as well start tentively planning the 777's replacement at this rate.

All the ones on the continent perhaps?

 

[Ribbleman]

So somebody is paying for two Merseyrail fleets for the forseeable future?
Can't be good for the local taxpayer or whoever funds Merseytravel.

Stadler are only being paid once units have completed acceptance testing. The process has been very heavily delayed by the absence of the Swiss based technicians due to Covid.

Isn't that how it's meant to be nowadays? Compared to the old days, complete the first one, month of trials, into service (because it worked well), rest follow as they are all completed, it is now de rigeur to complete building of the whole fleet before the first one enters service.

Hasn't the Glasgow Underground also had the whole new fleet built, delivered and paid for, but none have entered service?

The new stock in Glasgow is not yet in service because the Ansaldo-Stadler consortium has not completed its work. Given that, it would be most surprising if payment to them has already been made.

 

[Pacef8]

Merseyrail trains finish about 8pm nye .

 

[507020]

Has there ever been a rolling stock procurement as long as this? The whole process must've been going on for a decade or so now. We may as well start tentively planning the 777's replacement at this rate.

10 years ago, they had to design a new type of paper to design the 777s on, as there wasn’t a type of paper available at the time which was suitable for their design process, or so they said…

Steve Rotherham is hopeful they will get one in use by end of the year although seems more interested in talking about the battery option but not much use if the trains aren't in service.

I believe Steve is likely to try and get them running the entirety of the service to his beloved Kirkby by the end of the year, with everywhere else having to wait until 2022, or Southport even 2023, but I don’t know what will happen about union acceptance.

Agree the battery option has alot of potential and got to give them credit of having a vision about how they can deploy them to improve journey opportunities.

What I believe will happen is, as many smaller lines adjacent to areas of electrification as possible will go over to battery/hydrogen operation, reducing the demand for DMUs and allowing life expired Sprinters to be withdrawn, with spare 175s and 185s floating around to cover the shortfall, leaving more heavily used lines that need a lot of DMUs such as the Calder Valley as the main candidates for electrification.

Their greatest potential is therefore complete modernisation of the entire network, starting by extending local electric networks slightly further out from the main population centres they serve.

So somebody is paying for two Merseyrail fleets for the forseeable future?
Can't be good for the local taxpayer or whoever funds Merseytravel.

And it’s not cheap to keep the 507/508s running at their age.

Stadler are only being paid once units have completed acceptance testing. The process has been very heavily delayed by the absence of the Swiss based technicians due to Covid.

At least the 777s that have been delivered are visible evidence, not only to managers, but to the travelling tax-paying public, that something worth while has been done with their money.

Merseyrail trains finish about 8pm nye

A short manager-run service using the 777s on New Year’s Eve wouldn’t be the worst idea would it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A short manager-run service using the 777s on New Year’s Eve wouldn’t be the worst idea would it?

...if you like vomit all over your nice new trains.

 

[507020]

...if you like vomit all over your nice new trains.

A SHORT service finishing early in the day, before anyone feels the need to vomit all over them. They can keep the plastic bags on the seats in that case can’t they?

 

[Taunton]

Stadler are only being paid once units have completed acceptance testing. The process has been very heavily delayed by the absence of the Swiss based technicians due to Covid.


The new stock in Glasgow is not yet in service because the Ansaldo-Stadler consortium has not completed its work. Given that, it would be most surprising if payment to them has already been made.

The normal stage payments would be made periodically as a percentage of contract value at each key stage, per vehicle. By the time of delivery to site the manufacturer would have got most of it. Yes, there is the final commissioning stage.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The normal stage payments would be made periodically as a percentage of contract value at each key stage, per vehicle. By the time of delivery to site the manufacturer would have got most of it. Yes, there is the final commissioning stage.

The final payment normally covers the vendors profit. So assuming (say) 90% of the total contract value is paid upon delivery, the seller has at least covered their costs.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The normal stage payments would be made periodically as a percentage of contract value at each key stage, per vehicle. By the time of delivery to site the manufacturer would have got most of it. Yes, there is the final commissioning stage.

According to Liverpool City Region Transport committee meetings they have expended on the rolling stock programme (includes platform works, power supply upgrade, new depot, and a trackside wifi system)

2018/19 - planned spend £170m actual £121m difficult to deduce what was spent on Stadler as they didn't provide background but budget was £106m
2019/20 - planned spend £131m actual £96m of which £60m was on rolling stock but actually spent £32m
2020/21 - planned £108m actual £63m £55m on rolling stock but only spent £21m
2021/22 - planned £94m £53m on rolling stock.

So they have been underspending on Stadler for a number of years due to the delays so at least the local taxpayers haven't paid for something they haven't got yet. Whats interesting about the Transport Committee meetings is over the last three years never once has this programme been subject to any discussion on its delay.

 

[XAM2175]

10 years ago, they had to design a new type of paper to design the 777s on, as there wasn’t a type of paper available at the time which was suitable for their design process, or so they said…

What does this even mean?

 

[507021]

A SHORT service finishing early in the day, before anyone feels the need to vomit all over them. They can keep the plastic bags on the seats in that case can’t they?

Not going to happen.

 

[507020]

What does this even mean?

It was a joke that David Powell made in an interview about his arrival as the fleet replacement programme director. When he arrived there wasn’t even a blank sheet of paper he could design a new train on so first they had to design a sheet of paper before they could start.

 

[ExRes]

Not knowing Merseyside at all may I ask those of you that do if Kirkdale CS and Kirkdale Depot are part of the same complex/area?

 

[507020]

Not knowing Merseyside at all may I ask those of you that do if Kirkdale CS and Kirkdale Depot are part of the same complex/area?

The Kirkdale Carriage Sidings are at Kirkdale Depot, it is the same site, adjacent to Kirkdale station, however you may see it referred to now as “The Stadler UK Headquarters” despite the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway originally opening the depot there many years ago.

 

[ExRes]

The Kirkdale Carriage Sidings are at Kirkdale Depot, it is the same site, adjacent to Kirkdale station, however you may see it referred to now as “The Stadler UK Headquarters” despite the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway originally opening the depot there many years ago.

Thanks very much for the info, looks like you'll be getting a visit from a DCR loco tomorrow, currently scheduled to be at the CS around 1300

 

[507020]

Thanks very much for the info, looks like you'll be getting a visit from a DCR loco tomorrow, currently scheduled to be at the CS around 1300

What is a DCR loco and where will it be going? Is this the removal of 507006?

 

[Class83]

According to Liverpool City Region Transport committee meetings they have expended on the rolling stock programme (includes platform works, power supply upgrade, new depot, and a trackside wifi system)

2018/19 - planned spend £170m actual £121m difficult to deduce what was spent on Stadler as they didn't provide background but budget was £106m
2019/20 - planned spend £131m actual £96m of which £60m was on rolling stock but actually spent £32m
2020/21 - planned £108m actual £63m £55m on rolling stock but only spent £21m
2021/22 - planned £94m £53m on rolling stock.

So they have been underspending on Stadler for a number of years due to the delays so at least the local taxpayers haven't paid for something they haven't got yet. Whats interesting about the Transport Committee meetings is over the last three years never once has this programme been subject to any discussion on its delay.

It looks like well over £100m, probably closer to £200m has been spent on trains without a single train running in service, and no clear date for when that will happen. Plus the various infrastructure costs.

 

[Ianno87]

It looks like well over £100m, probably closer to £200m has been spent on trains without a single train running in service, and no clear date for when that will happen. Plus the various infrastructure costs.

Because you can't run the trains with out the infrastructure being done first.

Like complaining a builder has spent a fortune installing the walls and roof of your house "without a single sofa having been sat on" (because that's the last thing in the process)

 

[SolomonSouth]

They are very light - only 99 tonnes despite only being 4 coaches! Phenomenal!

 

[Class83]

Because you can't run the trains with out the infrastructure being done first.

Like complaining a builder has spent a fortune installing the walls and roof of your house "without a single sofa having been sat on" (because that's the last thing in the process)

The £1-200m is for the trains, the infrastructure is on top, and was done several years ago.

 

[Ianno87]

Even so, running a train I passenger service is, by definition, the last step of a long, complex project.

 

[Vespa]

It looks like well over £100m, probably closer to £200m has been spent on trains without a single train running in service, and no clear date for when that will happen. Plus the various infrastructure costs.

The money is not paid until a train is handed over, all 777 trains is as of this moment still owned by Stadler and has to have a running in period to make there is no faults as Stadler would be responsible for fixing it not Merseyrail.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It looks like well over £100m, probably closer to £200m has been spent on trains without a single train running in service, and no clear date for when that will happen. Plus the various infrastructure costs.

Infrastructure costs delivered by NR have more than doubled what NR told LCA they would cost but thats hardly a surprise same happened on Crossrail.

At the last transport committee the finance rep said they were reworking the overall costs of the programme and there had been cost creep. Lets see what they say in Sept meeting.

 

[ExRes]

What is a DCR loco and where will it be going? Is this the removal of 507006?

DC Railfreight, I understand from info elsewhere that Class 60s are not cleared between Sandhills and Walton Junctions so it may well be Class 20s if that's correct, as the return trips between Chaddesden and Kirkdale CS are both Class 0 headcodes I doubt they'll be moving anything, perhaps route learning

 

[507020]

DC Railfreight, I understand from info elsewhere that Class 60s are not cleared between Sandhills and Walton Junctions so it may well be Class 20s if that's correct, as the return trips between Chaddesden and Kirkdale CS are both Class 0 headcodes I doubt they'll be moving anything, perhaps route learning

Class 60s are definitely route cleared for the Canada Dock branch, which is used to access the Merseyrail Northern Line from elsewhere. I’ve seen one going over the bridge at West Derby Road. Class 66s have been all the way into Kirkdale C.S. to deliver the Class 777s from Dollands Moor and I doubt they were previously route cleared as they had no reason to run there. Do you know anything about the Chaddesden Sidings where they are coming from or why they are starting there. I’m curious as to what this movement could be. Unfortunately tomorrow I don’t have time to go and have a look myself.

 

[ExRes]

Class 60s are definitely route cleared for the Canada Dock branch, which is used to access the Merseyrail Northern Line from elsewhere. I’ve seen one going over the bridge at West Derby Road. Class 66s have been all the way into Kirkdale C.S. to deliver the Class 777s from Dollands Moor and I doubt they were previously route cleared as they had no reason to run there. Do you know anything about the Chaddesden Sidings where they are coming from or why they are starting there. I’m curious as to what this movement could be. Unfortunately tomorrow I don’t have time to go and have a look myself.

DC Railfreight locos and wagons are often berthed in Chaddesden Sidings as the company is Derby based, todays trip is a road learner and has 20118 & 20901 on it

 

[Mollman]

The return working if anyone is interested
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R21367/2021-08-11/detailed