Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[MattRat]

I’m sure the echo can spin that into negativity by tomorrow.

My response will be that maybe cost wouldn't be an issue if Joe Anderson hadn't embezzled all of the cities money away....

 

[D821]

I had wondered if they were ordering BEMUs for serving the non-electrified track between Ellesmere Port and Helsby too, but it doesn't seem like it.

 

[urbophile]

They could of course remove the bridge, it’s not like there isn’t one immediately parallel to it. Add lifts where the bridge was and you’ve at least made some people happy!

It's probably listed; anyway residents of Knowsley Road wouldn't be happy. And that wouldn't solve the problem of extremely narrow platforms which would be a safety risk for people in wheelchairs.

Green Lane and Cressington basically came under grandfather rights with the class 507/508 stock ie train doors could be released on the very narrow platform sections.
With the 777s this right is lost.

Well no, because the platforms (at Cressington) were only extended for the electrification/re-opening. They got special permission for the narrow sections. The only way they could be widened is by excavating huge slices out of the cutting sides, and rebuilding the retaining walls.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had wondered if they were ordering BEMUs for serving the non-electrified track between Ellesmere Port and Helsby too, but it doesn't seem like it.

The initial order doesn't cover extensions other than Headbolt Lane but they have options for more units.

 

[adc82140]

For those of us not keeping up at the back, now that units are starting to be accepted by Merseytravel, what are the barriers to commencing driver training and an introduction in to service? Are there still union issues outstanding?

 

[Skie]

1. Enough units need to be accepted to provide training/operational cover
2. Guards dispute needs to be resolved
3. Drivers need to agree to whatever the outcome of the guards resolution is (if it affects their role by adding new tasks)

#1 needs about 7 or 8 units accepted (iirc) and #2 is still in progress

 

[adc82140]

1. Enough units need to be accepted to provide training/operational cover
2. Guards dispute needs to be resolved
3. Drivers need to agree to whatever the outcome of the guards resolution is (if it affects their role by adding new tasks)

#1 needs about 7 or 8 units accepted (iirc) and #2 is still in progress

Once #1 has happened, there will be surely more pressure to resolve #2. Merseytravel won't be keen on paying leasing costs on the 777s as well as the 507/508s.

 

[ADHDTog]

A schedule is currently in place for 1817 5Q25 Crewe CS to Kirkdale CS tomorrow

Is this a unit drag?

 

[Skie]

Once #1 has happened, there will be surely more pressure to resolve #2. Merseytravel won't be keen on paying leasing costs on the 777s as well as the 507/508s.

The people involved know the timescales and implications if things aren’t resolved. As does the union…

 

[ashkeba]

But automated announcements telling passengers what part of the train they need to be in for certain stations have been in use for years down south.

And it worked so badly with people always getting caught out in the portion that terminates at Cambridge, or in the wrong half of a unit stopping at Littleport, or heading off to Canterbury when they wanted Dover.

It seems like a bad thing for passengers to introduce this behaviour to more units without walkthrough heads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it worked so badly with people always getting caught out in the portion that terminates at Cambridge, or in the wrong half of a unit stopping at Littleport, or heading off to Canterbury when they wanted Dover.

It seems like a bad thing for passengers to introduce this behaviour to more units without walkthrough heads.

It's not ideal. But the consequence here is low - 2 minutes to the next station, wait 15 minutes max (or 30 on a Sunday), 2 minutes back. Late evening services where people would genuinely get stuck are almost never double units. As long as they don't start prosecuting or PFing people who did it (including those who just decide to walk), but relatively few people on Merseyrail are on point to point tickets.

Delay caused by pulled passcoms and egresses might be more of a concern than issues for passengers caught out by it.

And as Cressington is very much a "local station for local people" - not a destination type station - basically everyone who uses it will know about it.

 

[trainmania100]

Have there been any new deliveries recently? They used to come through Dollands Moor but wasnt sure if they were arriving a different way now as havent seen any new reports of movements?

 

[ExRes]

Is this a unit drag?

Certainly should be as it's running as a Class 5, if it was just the barriers it would be a Class 6

 

[urbophile]

It's not ideal. But the consequence here is low - 2 minutes to the next station, wait 15 minutes max (or 30 on a Sunday), 2 minutes back. Late evening services where people would genuinely get stuck are almost never double units. As long as they don't start prosecuting or PFing people who did it (including those who just decide to walk), but relatively few people on Merseyrail are on point to point tickets.

Delay caused by pulled passcoms and egresses might be more of a concern than issues for passengers caught out by it.

And as Cressington is very much a "local station for local people" - not a destination type station - basically everyone who uses it will know about it.

Are they seriously suggesting not opening all doors at Cressington with the 777s? The narrow platforms are OK for averagely mobile passengers, and wheelchair users can't access/leave the platforms anyway. It will only be a problem when (if?) they install lifts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they seriously suggesting not opening all doors at Cressington with the 777s?

Yes.

 

[Gareth]

And as Cressington is very much a "local station for local people" - not a destination type station - basically everyone who uses it will know about it.

Could not the long term solution be a slightly relocated station? There appears to be much more space immediately south of Salisbury Rd, with a field on one side. Additional access to the station could be achieved by a path from the main road via where the Aldi is. It'd give the station more of a presence in the wider area too.

You could do similar with Green Lane also.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could not the long term solution be a slightly relocated station? There appears to be much more space immediately south of Salisbury Rd, with a field on one side. Additional access to the station could be achieved by a path from the main road via where the Aldi is. It'd give the station more of a presence in the wider area too.

You could do similar with Green Lane also.

I'm not sure it's really that much of an issue, particularly if any rejigging is possible to allow the front door of the rear unit to be on.

 

[Gareth]

Well, I did suggest as a long term aspiration, when a time possibly comes when trains through there are 8-car most of the day and the footfall through the station has increased correspondingly. The station is currently quite tucked away between narrow residential streets. If you were ever to do a comprehensive refurbishment Sandhills-style, then the slight relocation might well make sense to improve the station's accessibility, as well as solving the platform length issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, I did suggest as a long term aspiration, when a time possibly comes when trains through there are 8-car most of the day and the footfall through the station has increased correspondingly. The station is currently quite tucked away between narrow residential streets. If you were ever to do a comprehensive refurbishment Sandhills-style, then the slight relocation might well make sense to improve the station's accessibility, as well as solving the platform length issue.

It's tucked between residential streets because that's what it's there to serve! It's very much an origin, not a destination, and doesn't really have any scope to be the latter. I wouldn't be opposed to moving it (though if you were going to west would seem to make more sense than east), but as a "local station for local people" locals will know that they need to be in the front 4, and if anyone forgets it's only a short trip to South Parkway and back.

 

[462cd]

And as Cressington is very much a "local station for local people" - not a destination type station - basically everyone who uses it will know about it.

I think this is the key point. Short platforms can get messy - like when airport passengers get stuck at the back of trains at Liverpool South Parkway just down the road - but Cressington is used almost exclusively by regular locals who'll learn once and get used to it. Lengthening the platforms or moving the station would be nice, but if the money for that existed then there's better things to spend it on.

 

[Gareth]

FFS, I wasn't claiming it was anything else.

 

[theblackwatch]

Certainly should be as it's running as a Class 5, if it was just the barriers it would be a Class 6

Well it seems to be running... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K52303/2021-11-23/detailed

Does anyone know the consist please?

 

[3973EXL]

Well it seems to be running... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K52303/2021-11-23/detailed

Does anyone know the consist please?

56302 Barriers 2x777 Barriers 56091

 

[ExRes]

56302 Barriers 2x777 Barriers 56091

Reported as 016 & 018

 

[urbophile]

I'm not sure it's really that much of an issue, particularly if any rejigging is possible to allow the front door of the rear unit to be on.

Quite. An awful lot of fuss about one little station (albeit my local, and a favourite). But I honestly can't see what a difference the new trains will make to passengers' use of the narrow platform sections. It would only be a problem for wheelchairs and there is no access for them to the station anyway. Relocating as suggested would incur the problem of platforms on curved track, and would abandon a splendid listed building.

 

[Skie]

But I honestly can't see what a difference the new trains will make to passengers' use of the narrow platform sections. It would only be a problem for wheelchairs and there is no access for them to the station anyway.

Legislation, basically. Lots of standards that need to be met with relation to the platform train interface (pti) when you introduce new units that grandfathered rights won’t apply to.

My biggest concern about Cressington would be headroom. A blind user enjoying the new freedoms granted by the 777’s might not enjoy smashing their head into a listed bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Legislation, basically. Lots of standards that need to be met with relation to the platform train interface (pti) when you introduce new units that grandfathered rights won’t apply to.

My biggest concern about Cressington would be headroom. A blind user enjoying the new freedoms granted by the 777’s might not enjoy smashing their head into a listed bridge.

It's basically the same situation as Loughborough, is it not, where HSTs used to use the platform beyond the narrow bridge, but now it's closed off?

 

[wobman]

Is there any news of when they are actually coming into service? I've seen them on test but not heard of an actual date they come into service

 

[MattRat]

Is there any news of when they are actually coming into service? I've seen them on test but not heard of an actual date they come into service

Depends how much money they are willing to throw down the toilet leasing 777s that aren't in operation. If they are smart, the guard problem gets solved and I'd say early 2022. If they like burning money, it'll be maybe 2023 before they run dry.

 

[507020]

Depends how much money they are willing to throw down the toilet leasing 777s that aren't in operation. If they are smart, the guard problem gets solved and I'd say early 2022. If they like burning money, it'll be maybe 2023 before they run dry.

What do you mean leasing? The 777s are directly owned by Merseytravel and will be until they go for scrap circa 2065, so there are no leasing costs on them whether they are in service or not.