Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[norbitonflyer]

Hope so, then I can get the 1608 from Moorfields up to Kirkdale then get off and wait for an Ormskirk!


EDIT: Merseyrail have posted a Kirkby timetable update with some removed trains from Monday 23rd Jan, but no specific mention of the 777 starting. I don't think they're expecting to start the 777 on Monday as the BBC had originally reported.

Timetables

View or download our train timetables for the Northern line and Wirral line, plan your journey and see service updates

www.merseyrail.org

Those cancelled trains have the same timings as ECS runs on RTT this week (5Kxx) - they they are still shown on RTT as scheduled to run next week, still as ECS. But, reading between the lines, the paths used by ECS runs in between those hours this week will run in passenger service next week. This looks like the first 777 in service could be the 1050 from Central on Monday (and then every 45 minutes until 1605). The round trip at 1005 will also run in service from Tuesday onwards.

In particular, why would the 1005 run ECS on Monday only? Could it be a disguised official launch run?

 

[Horseman]

Does anyone know what exactly is the agreement regarding Guards on these new class 777 trains? There seems to be very little information about what exact method was agreed?

Will the Guard be guaranteed onboard? Will it still be full Guard control where the Guard both opens and closes the doors and dispatches the train? Or will it be the AGA Guard and SE OBM method where there is a guaranteed second person onboard but they do not operate the doors or dispatch the train? Or will it be the Scotrail TE method where they are booked for each train but not guaranteed? Or will it be the SN OBS method where they are booked for each train but not guaranteed and additionally look out at each stop and can put their key in to stop the door from closing? Or another method instead? From looking at the videos they do not appear to have had Guard panels installed? Unless i can not see them?

Also will the Guards remain non commercial? Or will they start to check and sell tickets? I think there was a plan for them to do penalty fares but i wonder if that got scrapped? Has this been decided on yet?As of yet there's nothing in there which says we will be selling tickets although checking them yes. Revenue protection is not part of the job description. The dispatch method is pretty much

The dispatch method is pretty much as you describe. As of yet there's nothing regarding us selling tickets in there although we will be checking them. Penalty fares though will be left up to the RPOs and security staff. No train will run without a second safety critical person on board.

As for them coming into service, by this point if anyone believes anything they read online about the 777s entering service they need to learn not to take anything written in the echo (or much of the mainstream media for that matter) with a huge pinch of salt.

They won't be entering passenger service on Monday. When they do enter passenger service, it is correct that the Kirkbys will be the first line they become operational on, with trained drivers and guards (or train managers as they're now to be called) due to enter a separate 777 link when they do. There is no fixed date for this yet as there are still aspects of the 777s that haven't been signed off.

It is likely to be soon though.

 

[markymark2000]

Contactless door systems usually involve an encrypted token being loaded onto the chip on the card. So merely knowing the serial number isn't going to help produce a fake one. The important part is having a robust system to manage cards/fobs/etc. so you know what has been issued to whom and can revoke permissions if one is lost. Or if the member of staff leaves, rather than trying to retrieve their fob, just cancel it. They're relatively cheap and a cancelled fob has no value unlike a T-key.

It all depends on the quality of the system being used to be honest. For every system I've come across that actually uses certificates and shells on the RFID chips, there are many more that merely use the ID of the chip

You hit the nail on the head in terms of the management aspect - and that is going to be key here (no pun intended!).

Thank you both.

As of yet there's nothing regarding us selling tickets in there although we will be checking them. Penalty fares though will be left up to the RPOs and security staff.

What's the point in checking tickets if you can't sell the right ticket or fine for the wrong ticket? The only benefit to this is staff presence.

 

[Skie]

What's the point in checking tickets if you can't sell the right ticket or fine for the wrong ticket? The only benefit to this is staff presence.

If the future is like Oyster/contactless, then in theory there won’t be tickets to sell. They’ll just tap you in where you boarded and when you tap out the fare will be calculated.

 

[TheSel]

In case anyone's not seen it, there's more info on Merseyrail's website here featuring a 'general guide', and sections on accessibility, carriage of cycles etc. All the subpages have text such as:

"Final preparations are being made to introduce the new trains, which could happen as early as Monday 23 January. Further updates will be made once the date of entry into passenger service is confirmed."

Note the phrase "could happen". Nothing is certain until it's certain!

There's also quite an interesting 'gallery' of pictures here although this may not be of much use to some users of assistive technology.

 

[Horseman]

Thank you both.



What's the point in checking tickets if you can't sell the right ticket or fine for the wrong ticket? The only benefit to this is staff presence.

Most would be inclined to agree. Officially it's to act as both a deterrent and a point of contact.

 

[507020]

In case anyone's not seen it, there's more info on Merseyrail's website here featuring a 'general guide', and sections on accessibility, carriage of cycles etc. All the subpages have text such as:

"Final preparations are being made to introduce the new trains, which could happen as early as Monday 23 January. Further updates will be made once the date of entry into passenger service is confirmed."

Note the phrase "could happen". Nothing is certain until it's certain!

There's also quite an interesting 'gallery' of pictures here although this may not be of much use to some users of assistive technology.

Could it be that Merseyrail will make a soft launch on the Kirkby off peak “ghost” path from Monday, with the fanfare being made on their full 4tph introduction to Kirkby.

My original prediction was that there would be no mixed running except in the core sections, with whole lines permanently converted in one go. It now looks like this won’t be the case.

I have received information that the same team will resume the 500 fault free mileage accumulation runs which took place throughout 2021, for subsequent deliveries, but of course these are dependent on 508s going for scrap.

Even if all Ormskirk and Kirkby services are 777 operated by April, it has been suggested that the full 508 fleet minus units that run out of miles could be retained for Grand National day.

Certainly their introduction on Wirral and Southport lines remains far off.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Apologies if this is in the wrong thread, but is this weekend’s closure of the Northern Line between Hunts Cross to Sandhills related to the introduction of the 777’s?

 

[danbarnstall]

I guess that can only mean one thing

 

[Parjon]

They won't be entering passenger service on Monday.

Ok cheers

 

[norbitonflyer]

Tbh it may well be, but introducing a few services on the Kirkby line hardly counts as introducing them into passenger service in my book!!

Isn't that how all new stock is introduced? Recent examples:
Class 484, one train on the Island Line
Class 196, initially just one train on the Shrewsbury line
Class 197, intially just one train on the Conwy valley Line
Class 231, initially just one train on the Rhymney Line

In any case, they can't all be switched over in one fell swoop. There would be a storage problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess that can only mean one thing

One journey driven and guarded by instructors to say it was done? There is indeed a 1050 from Central to Kirkby...

 

[busestrains]

One journey driven and guarded by instructors to say it was done? There is indeed a 1050 from Central to Kirkby...

That is what is sounds like. They just want to be able to say they have entered passenger service. It does not sound like they are ready yet for a regular service to start. I would not be surprised if this is a one off and then we do not see another 777 in passenger service for a while.

It reminds me of Stagecoach South West Trains who ran a 707 in passenger service for one day only and then nothing again for ages until after First South Western Railway took over. It looked like they were doing it just to say they had entered service.

 

[Skie]

That is what is sounds like. They just want to be able to say they have entered passenger service. It does not sound like they are ready yet for a regular service to start. I would not be surprised if this is a one off and then we do not see another 777 in passenger service for a while.

They only have a very small number of crew trained, so they can only really run a limited diagram. But as training continues more of them can be introduced until only 777s operate the line, or they can keep one train running until enough other staff are trained up to convert the whole line. Bit different than the original plan to switch the line over in one go, but the desire to get *something* running presumably won out over the more sensible but slower plans.

It reminds me of Stagecoach South West Trains who ran a 707 in passenger service for one day only and then nothing again for ages until after First South Western Railway took over. It looked like they were doing it just to say they had entered service.

In a way, but there isn't a contractual obligation being "met" with sharp practice here. It's just a PR thing really, so they can show progress and kick off the PR campaign rather than continuing to sit on it and presumably continue paying the consultants and agencies for their time. There are local elections due in early May, with the purdah period in March restricting what the local authorities and city region can announce, so avoiding that period is also a sensible move.

 

[karlbbb]

I can't see chucking in the odd service as anything other than a PR fail. It will not be met with good reaction that only a service here and there (at least for now) is the public's brand new trains coming into service.

 

[Trainbike46]

I can't see chucking in the odd service as anything other than a PR fail. It will not be met with good reaction that only a service here and there (at least for now) is the public's brand new trains coming into service.

I would say that most people understand new trains get phased into service, starting with one unit and then expanding as crew training continues/storage allows/units get delivered

 

[Sam 76]

I would say that most people understand new trains get phased into service, starting with one unit and then expanding as crew training continues/storage allows/units get delivered

Has its been confirmed it’s just the 10:50 or is it going to do a few diagrams during the day

 

[Bertie the bus]

Isn't that how all new stock is introduced? Recent examples:
Class 484, one train on the Island Line
Class 196, initially just one train on the Shrewsbury line
Class 197, intially just one train on the Conwy valley Line
Class 231, initially just one train on the Rhymney Line

In any case, they can't all be switched over in one fell swoop. There would be a storage problem.

No, it isn't how all new stock is introduced. Nothern's 769s, 195s and 331s certainly weren't introduced like that.

I'm also pretty sure that other new stock has been introduced to cover a whole diagram. How many introductions can you quote where an existing unit covered the morning peak, then they cancelled some passenger services while swapping the old unit for a new one to do a handful of off peak services and then cancelling some more passenger services to swap it back to an old unit for the evening peak and the rest of the day?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Has its been confirmed it’s just the 10:50 or is it going to do a few diagrams during the day

RTT appears to show
5K72 0908 Kirkdale C.S. to Kirkby
5G72, 5K14 and 5G75
2K17 1050 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G78 1113 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K20 1135 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G81 1158 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K23 1220 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G84 1243 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K26 1305 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G87 1328 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K29 1350 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G90 1413 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K32 1435 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G93 1458 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K35 1520½ Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G96 1543 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K38 1605 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
5D38 1628 Kirkby to Kirkdale C.S.

 

[Sam 76]

RTT appears to show
5K72 0908 Kirkdale C.S. to Kirkby
5G72, 5K14 and 5G75
2K17 1050 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G78 1113 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K20 1135 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G81 1158 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K23 1220 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G84 1243 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K26 1305 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G87 1328 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K29 1350 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G90 1413 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K32 1435 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G93 1458 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K35 1520½ Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G96 1543 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K38 1605 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
5D38 1628 Kirkby to Kirkdale C.S.

Thanks so much for this

 

[Techniquest]

Fingers crossed for everyone involved tomorrow! I'm keenly waiting for my chance to go to Liverpool in the spring, by then I hope there's plenty of 777s to find!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

https://twitter.com/MetroMayorSteve/status/1617261323363950600

 

[Horseman]

They only have a very small number of crew trained, so they can only really run a limited diagram. But as training continues more of them can be introduced until only 777s operate the line, or they can keep one train running until enough other staff are trained up to convert the whole line. Bit different than the original plan to switch the line over in one go, but the desire to get *something* running presumably won out over the more sensible but slower plans.


In a way, but there isn't a contractual obligation being "met" with sharp practice here. It's just a PR thing really, so they can show progress and kick off the PR campaign rather than continuing to sit on it and presumably continue paying the consultants and agencies for their time. There are local elections due in early May, with the purdah period in March restricting what the local authorities and city region can announce, so avoiding that period is also a sensible move.

This is basically what's happening, as we found out today. Technically it will mark the start of service.

 

[karlbbb]

RTT appears to show
5K72 0908 Kirkdale C.S. to Kirkby
5G72, 5K14 and 5G75
2K17 1050 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G78 1113 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K20 1135 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G81 1158 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K23 1220 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G84 1243 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K26 1305 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G87 1328 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K29 1350 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G90 1413 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K32 1435 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G93 1458 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K35 1520½ Liverpool Central to Kirkby
2G96 1543 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
2K38 1605 Liverpool Central to Kirkby
5D38 1628 Kirkby to Kirkdale C.S.

Well hopefully it runs this full list so I can quickly hop on one for a couple of stops on the way home from work!

https://twitter.com/Merseytravel/status/1617454527996887040

EDIT: Merseytravel confirming it will be unit 777049 entering passenger service at 1050, LVC-KIR.

EDIT2: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C79141/2023-01-23/detailed and with that, the first 777 is now in service!

 

[Vespa]

Is this the same train ?

Edit: just saw the post above including a detailed RTT.

 

[karlbbb]

Is this the same train ?

Yep that's the one.

 

[Vespa]

Yep that's the one.

Cheers I'll expect loads of pics will uploaded very soon....

I unfortunately have to go to work today, so won't get the opportunity to ride it, having said that, after 3 years what's another week.

 

[samrammstein]

777049 running 2K17, busy with enthusiasts.

Onboard staff mentioned this same diagram will hopefully be a 777 all week

 

[karlbbb]

They do look nice! Can't wait to jump on one later.

 

[Snow1964]

I can't see chucking in the odd service as anything other than a PR fail. It will not be met with good reaction that only a service here and there (at least for now) is the public's brand new trains coming into service.

Doesn't make good good PR to have a launch, then next day have everyone commenting on social media that new trains have already stopped running.

It is more better PR to park one in a spare bay or loop platform and invite everyone to come and view it, saying they are going to be rolled out in next few weeks.