Merseyrail Expansion

[pokemonsuper9]

I do believe that some poor deluded souls still believe there is a Ringway airport that is based in the Greater Manchester area and if any of those people want, as you say, a direct train service to that little-known airport that only exists in their confused minds, the costs that would be incurred in building such a new airport, together with approach roads and a new railway station would pose the question of where will the required finance come from to allow such a major aspirational project to take place and I am sure that a major sized area airport affected by such proposals would not be quiet in their expressed views on that matter.

Are they thinking of Manchester Barton Aerodrome? It's right off the M60 at Junction 11, but is only used for private flights (I think the Air Ambulance is based there).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't quite follow what you are trying to say, but a specially constructed heavy rail link, as distinct from a new station on an existing line as at Inverness Dalcross airport, can only really be justified if the airport usage exceeds 10 million passengers per year. The usage at Liverpool Speke airport is currently only about half that figure, so extension of Merseyrail to serve it can't be justified yet. By contrast, Manchester Ringway airport's usage exceeded this figure by 1990; its heavy rail connection opened in 1993 and the airport station was used by nearly 4 million passengers in 2022/3.

I really do object to the term Ringway airport as that name does not exist, hence the wording used in my second paragraph. On another website in past times, that said named non-existent airport was said to already have a railway station, so a moderator on that website asked the person in question to specifically ask for prices of rail tickets from " Ringway airport" railway station and to report back to the website with the ticket prices. Needless to say, no such answer was ever forthcoming and other website members wrote in to confirm there was no such railway station carrying the name of Ringway Airport railway station.

 

[Djgr]

I really do object to the term Ringway airport as that name does not exist, hence the wording used in my second paragraph. On another website in past times, that said named non-existent airport was said to already have a railway station, so a moderator on that website asked the person in question to specifically ask for prices of rail tickets from " Ringway airport" railway station and to report back to the website with the ticket prices. Needless to say, no such answer was ever forthcoming and other website members wrote in to confirm there was no such railway station carrying the name of Ringway Airport railway station.

Perhaps the time to mention that Speke airport has not existed since 2001!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps the time to mention that Speke airport has not existed since 2001!

That puts me in mind of the Liverpool folk song, with a chorus of.....

Don't want to go to Kirkby
Don't want to go to Speke
Don't want to go from all I know
In Back Buchanan Street.

 

[willgreen]

My post specified the justification for a "heavy rail" link; there is currently no "light rail" in Liverpool, in contrast to Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

The new Merseyrail stock is almost identical to the new Tyne and Wear Metro stock - I am not convinced there is a huge difference between the systems even if Merseyrail does remain part of the national network.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It would be much more useful to run a 15-min frequency Merseyrail service between Parkway and the City Centre, and include an additional station at Smithdown Road. Initially to Lime Street if feasible, eventually via the Wapping tunnel.

As for the Hunts Cross to Aintree loop: if potential passenger numbers for a full Merseyrail extension don't add up wouldn't trams be an alternative? Cheaper infrastructure, with the option of extending to the airport running on-street or mostly on the central reservation. The road from the airport to South Parkway is mostly dual carriageway, then it could head up to Hunts Cross via Woolton Road and Hillfoot Road.

Indeed it would be more useful, but there's no free paths for it on that section.
An additional station on Smithdown Rd is possible, but you'd need NPR to release enough capacity in order to serve it properly.

Trams would be a possibility, but Merseyrail extension wouldn't be as expensive as people think.
The trackbed is mostly intact, rolling stock already exists (options are there to order more if needed) and you would need less infrastructure to connect with Merseyrail, while you'd need 2 new interchange stations at Caldy Rd (between Orrell Park and Aintree at the northern end) and Hunts Cross at the southern end, to make it work.

 

[Chester1]

Whilst true they are still interested in developing the line and railways in general in North Wales. Certainly more so than the Westminster "government"



Again whilst true, I was highlighting why the passenger service Bidston (New Brighton) to Wrexham was maintained whilst that to Chester Northgate was lost. (and wasn't that a huge mistake given traffic congestion getting into Chester?)




A bit simplistic but the merit lies in park and ride sites rather than walk to station. Look at how tremendously successful Birkenhead North has been (and to a lesser extent Bidston). Obviously this would require through and frequent service to Liverpool.


I think that this is as much to do with class 230 performing a much lower percentage of journeys.

Anyway a cracking and quirky line and in particular its views of the Dee Estuary and the English/Welsh border not available by road.

Its a bit OT but the mistake was in the late 90s / early 2000s. The last freight train along the line from Dee Junction to Mickle Trafford was in the late 90s. The council obtained funding for a bus way to take people from a park and ride, past the old Northgate station site and into the city centre. A phase 2 towards Blacon was sketched out. It would have allowed the buses to miss the congestion and would have allowed the city to retain its status as a tourist destination, which has significantly declined since. The plan was abandoned thanks to a huge local campaign and the old track is now a cycle way. Had the line been retained as a railway a curve into Chester General and closure from there to Mickle Trafford would have been the best option, with all services serving one station (with Chester Liverpool Street and Bache as minor stations).

 

[Djgr]

Its a bit OT but the mistake was in the late 90s / early 2000s. The last freight train along the line from Dee Junction to Mickle Trafford was in the late 90s. The council obtained funding for a bus way to take people from a park and ride, past the old Northgate station site and into the city centre. A phase 2 towards Blacon was sketched out. It would have allowed the buses to miss the congestion and would have allowed the city to retain its status as a tourist destination, which has significantly declined since. The plan was abandoned thanks to a huge local campaign and the old track is now a cycle way. Had the line been retained as a railway a curve into Chester General and closure from there to Mickle Trafford would have been the best option, with all services serving one station (with Chester Liverpool Street and Bache as minor stations).

Chester is still a major tourism and retail centre but was obviously hit by Trafford Centre, Cheshire Oaks and then Liverpool One and the renaissance of Liverpool as a major tourist destination.

The Wirral line Chester/Liverpool services on Saturdays appear rammed with visitors in both directions!

 

[AlastairFraser]

As an unrelated aside, I've always thought stations like Hunts Cross, Halewood and other stations with a reasonable amount of potential passengers in their reach should have passing loops added? Basically every station along the CLC line gets a good number of trains passing through, but only once an hour stoppers! At least if there were passing loops, stoppers could let the express services pass, to make up for the lack of quadrupling along the line. Once an hour at stations like that, some of them still within Liverpool city boundaries, is an absolute joke!!
A family member of mine lives in Halewood, and I genuinely prefer to take Merseyrail to Hunts Cross and then walk than gamble on relying on a cramped two- or three-car sprinter that, if missed or cancelled, means an hour's wait.

Right, back on topic.

So would this be the Southport line being extended? It's my person opinion that a separate, OLE-powered service would be much preferred. Given the likely lower level of service, dedicating a 2tph (or more) suburban service using OLE 777s would make much more sense to the commuters than having a weird backwards-J shaped line that hooks back onto its own branch lines, and would prevent the operational annoyances (and even incidents) that power change-overs (3rd rail to battery, or to OLE) can cause.
Since 3rd rail expansion is disallowed, and battery power has significant drawbacks to performance and range, kicking Merseyrail up the arse to start using (and changing over to) OLE would help massively. Not to mention, could the batteries even carry a train up to Aintree from Hunts Cross?
Not to mention that, if my aforementioned (and, in my opinion, much-needed) ideas regarding the airport line (TLDR: reopen Wavertree, Sefton Park and Speke stations, open a Halewood South station, build a curved branch to the airport with an underground station at Hale and the Airport, and shuttle from there to Lime Street) go into place, there would be OLE 777s running that line too, given that the line is already OLE electrified! Plus, a dual-terminus with the Northern line and "Suburban line" makes operational sense for interchanges with the Airport line, the existing CLC City line, existing services via Runcorn and potential future services via the dormant Fiddler's Ferry line.

I definitely don't think extensions down the line, via Southport line services with batteries, would be a bad idea at first (if they were to, for example, build the line gradually and run services further and further up it as it gets built) but, looking at the services overall, it makes operational sense and sense for the passengers for Southport services to terminate at South Parkway and "Suburban" services to go from there to Aintree via Broadgreen.

Additionally, you mention services to Warrington. Given Merseyrail services have done their best to isolate their network from sharing track with external traffic (the only exception being Hunts Cross and the crossover to get to it from South Parkway), would Merseyrail services via Ditton Junction to Warrington using the basically-disused Fiddler's Ferry line make more sense, given it's grade-separated from all other traffic (except freight traffic to the Garston car terminus, but I have my own crayonista ideas for that, too )?

1) Station loops would be one option, but a lot of the line is hemmed in by housing around stations, so it wouldn't be cheap.
If you converted one to Merseyrail as I suggested (you'd need to install a battery charger in the sidings at Warrington Central station), and then extended the Northern service to a 6 car, that would be an initial investment to help build a business case for more investment.

2) It's my opinion that you'd need through services into Liverpool city centre to make it attractive.
If you wanted a terminus for the Outer Circle there, you'd need to completely rebuild Hunts Cross too, which would be even more expensive.
Not to mention the 777s would need additional investment to fit the pans for the OHLE capability.

I expect the changeover issue with 3rd rail to battery to be sorted by the time this line would open in any case - the batteries are said to have capacity for up to 15 miles of battery operation - this reopening would be about 9.5 miles, so well within capability.
Should the ORR change its mind, we could install 3rd rail, but battery makes sense for now.

3) I'm not going to go down the route of other future extensions down the City Line from Liv St towards the airport- they all depend on NPR removing InterCity services from at least the section from LSP into Lime St, and that would be a huge task.

4) About services to Warrington, the line via Fiddler's Ferry wouldn't be an option for a couple of reasons - Firstly, NPR is planned to use this alignment south of LSP - any other alignment would be super expensive and you'd need to build more track miles to reach the airport on a completely new alignment, while the old LNWR line towards Stockport from Fiddler's Ferry would only require around 10 miles of new trackbed.
Secondly, you'd need a lengthly tunnel to reach Warrington Central from the Fiddler's Ferry route, or if you wanted to run into Bank Quay, you'd need 2 reversals including one on the West Coast Main Line!

 

[urbophile]

Indeed it would be more useful, but there's no free paths for it on that section.
An additional station on Smithdown Rd is possible, but you'd need NPR to release enough capacity in order to serve it properly.

Trams would be a possibility, but Merseyrail extension wouldn't be as expensive as people think.
The trackbed is mostly intact, rolling stock already exists (options are there to order more if needed) and you would need less infrastructure to connect with Merseyrail, while you'd need 2 new interchange stations at Caldy Rd (between Orrell Park and Aintree at the northern end) and Hunts Cross at the southern end, to make it work.

plus Broad Green. Hunts Cross isn't as useful for interchange as Parkway would be, but constructing a conflict-free junction to get it there would be costly.

 

[AlastairFraser]

plus Broad Green

Oh yeah, but Broad Green wouldn't need total rebuilding necessarily.

Hunts Cross isn't as useful for interchange as Parkway would be, but constructing a conflict-free junction to get it there would be costly.

Indeed, that's why I said extend 3tph from the Southport line to provide those links to LSP without additional infrastructure.

 

[urbophile]

I don't quite follow what you are trying to say, but a specially constructed heavy rail link, as distinct from a new station on an existing line as at Inverness Dalcross airport, can only really be justified if the airport usage exceeds 10 million passengers per year. The usage at Liverpool Speke airport is currently only about half that figure, so extension of Merseyrail to serve it can't be justified yet.

But the airport doesn't exist in no-mans-land. It adjoins the large suburb of Speke (population approx 15 thousand), which is the second most deprived area in England and desperately needs decent transport connections. There are plenty of buses but they take the best part of an hour to reach the city centre. You could kill two birds with one stone by building a short rail link.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My post specified the justification for a "heavy rail" link; there is currently no "light rail" in Liverpool, in contrast to Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

It's interesting how historical changes in political views resulted in the three very different solutions to essentially the same problem demonstrated by Merseyrail (late 70s when BR was still in favour), T&W Metro (BR out of favour but a proper German style U-Bahn so still expensive) and Metrolink (1990s so done very much on the cheap).

But the airport doesn't exist in no-mans-land. It adjoins the large suburb of Speke (population approx 15 thousand), which is the second most deprived area in England and desperately needs decent transport connections. There are plenty of buses but they take the best part of an hour to reach the city centre. You could kill two birds with one stone by building a short rail link.

There's also a reasonable chance that a railway would increase demand for the airport. Luton's spectacularly expensive people mover basically turns it into *actually* a London airport rather than one with a train journey and a faffy, badly run bus ride. Had the Lizzie not been built arguably a better one than Ee'throw because Thameslink takes you right into the city (but really the Lizzie means both are on near even stead).

 

[Bevan Price]

1) Station loops would be one option, but a lot of the line is hemmed in by housing around stations, so it wouldn't be cheap.
If you converted one to Merseyrail as I suggested (you'd need to install a battery charger in the sidings at Warrington Central station), and then extended the Northern service to a 6 car, that would be an initial investment to help build a business case for more investment.

2) It's my opinion that you'd need through services into Liverpool city centre to make it attractive.
If you wanted a terminus for the Outer Circle there, you'd need to completely rebuild Hunts Cross too, which would be even more expensive.
Not to mention the 777s would need additional investment to fit the pans for the OHLE capability.

I expect the changeover issue with 3rd rail to battery to be sorted by the time this line would open in any case - the batteries are said to have capacity for up to 15 miles of battery operation - this reopening would be about 9.5 miles, so well within capability.
Should the ORR change its mind, we could install 3rd rail, but battery makes sense for now.

3) I'm not going to go down the route of other future extensions down the City Line from Liv St towards the airport- they all depend on NPR removing InterCity services from at least the section from LSP into Lime St, and that would be a huge task.

4) About services to Warrington, the line via Fiddler's Ferry wouldn't be an option for a couple of reasons - Firstly, NPR is planned to use this alignment south of LSP - any other alignment would be super expensive and you'd need to build more track miles to reach the airport on a completely new alignment, while the old LNWR line towards Stockport from Fiddler's Ferry would only require around 10 miles of new trackbed.
Secondly, you'd need a lengthly tunnel to reach Warrington Central from the Fiddler's Ferry route, or if you wanted to run into Bank Quay, you'd need 2 reversals including one on the West Coast Main Line!

No. It would be a lot cheaper to reinstate the Low Level platforms at Bank Quay. A problem with that line is that it is unsuitable for high speed running, due to numerous curved sections between Widnes and Warringon Arpley.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I expect the changeover issue with 3rd rail to battery to be sorted by the time this line would open in any case - the batteries are said to have capacity for up to 15 miles of battery operation - this reopening would be about 9.5 miles, so well within capability. gShould the ORR change its mind, we could install 3rd rail, but battery makes sense for now.

I wonder what odds the major bookmakers would offer on an ORR change of mind that particular 3rd rail aspiration in that area, which I have emboldened for purposes of clarity?

 

[Lloyds siding]

I think that your mention of "time critical" matters would suggest that the prospective airline passengers do not allow themselves enough time to ensure they meet any stated airport minimum time period regulations for travellers requiring flights. These passengers you say want a direct train, but airline passengers would come from a very wide catchment area, many living many miles away from the airport and nowhere near a railway station that has services that go direct to the airport. A cursory view of some of the taxi firms who serve airports suggest by the very fact that the fare to the airport from a wide range of local settlements is clearly shown in their marketing for such travel requirements.

I do believe that some poor deluded souls still believe there is a Ringway airport that is based in the Greater Manchester area and if any of those people want, as you say, a direct train service to that little-known airport that only exists in their confused minds, the costs that would be incurred in building such a new airport, together with approach roads and a new railway station would pose the question of where will the required finance come from to allow such a major aspirational project to take place and I am sure that a major sized area airport affected by such proposals would not be quiet in their expressed views on that matter.

Like daodao I don't know what this comment about Ringway is about, other than to imply that senior people like me who still sometimes refer to Manchester Airport as Ringway are deluded. I sometimes refer to Liverpool John Lennon Airport as Speke too, and Aintree University Hospital is Fazakerley Hospital. Sorry that my mind is partly in the past, but that's the way it is.

 

[urbophile]

Like daodao I don't know what this comment about Ringway is about, other than to imply that senior people like me who still sometimes refer to Manchester Airport as Ringway are deluded. I sometimes refer to Liverpool John Lennon Airport as Speke too, and Aintree University Hospital is Fazakerley Hospital. Sorry that my mind is partly in the past, but that's the way it is.

I bet you still call Queen Square bus station The Gyratory. And of course it's Home and Bargain not Home Bargains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like daodao I don't know what this comment about Ringway is about, other than to imply that senior people like me who still sometimes refer to Manchester Airport as Ringway are deluded. I sometimes refer to Liverpool John Lennon Airport as Speke too, and Aintree University Hospital is Fazakerley Hospital. Sorry that my mind is partly in the past, but that's the way it is.

Being the one who made that particular posting, whilst noting what you say above, I am 78 years old and had a stroke in 2012 from which I made a good fortunate recovery. I have no problems in referring to matters under their currently-used name. The barbed comment you mention makes no mention of older people, but it does act as a retort to those much younger people who deliberately use arcane terminology just to deliberately annoy website members on a number of websites known to me.

 

[Bevan Price]

Like daodao I don't know what this comment about Ringway is about, other than to imply that senior people like me who still sometimes refer to Manchester Airport as Ringway are deluded. I sometimes refer to Liverpool John Lennon Airport as Speke too, and Aintree University Hospital is Fazakerley Hospital. Sorry that my mind is partly in the past, but that's the way it is.

Well - Aintree University Hospital IS in Fazakerley, not Aintree, so the Aintree name is misleading. Moreover, it is only a short walk from Fazakerley station - and quite a lohg way from Aintree station. .

 

[Djgr]

Well - Aintree University Hospital IS in Fazakerley, not Aintree, so the Aintree name is misleading. Moreover, it is only a short walk from Fazakerley station - and quite a lohg way from Aintree station. .

and Headbolt Lane is in...well who knows?!

 

[daodao]

But the airport doesn't exist in no-mans-land. It adjoins the large suburb of Speke (population approx 15 thousand), which is the second most deprived area in England and desperately needs decent transport connections. There are plenty of buses but they take the best part of an hour to reach the city centre. You could kill two birds with one stone by building a short rail link.

Obvious routes from the existing rail network to Liverpool's airport at Speke would join the 25kV AC Liverpool-Crewe line, not Merseyrail, and be routed close to Speke Hall rather than the suburb of Speke. This airport is minor compared to the major international airport at Manchester (Ringway) and at present doesn't merit a direct heavy rail link.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well - Aintree University Hospital IS in Fazakerley, not Aintree, so the Aintree name is misleading. Moreover, it is only a short walk from Fazakerley station - and quite a lohg way from Aintree station. .

There's quite a bit of debate about the exact nomenclature of places around there. Most notably I never knew anyone who referred to the Old Roan (the development of 1930s semis visible from the station named after the former pub) as "Aintree Village", despite signs being put there to that effect in the late 90s and the OS map calling that area Aintree (the other side of the railway bridge was Netherton). We called the area of terraced housing around the racecourse area (where my Nan and Grandad lived) Aintree, Fazakerley was further down past the end of the cemetery* (and the hospital was definitely there), and it was Walton once you got to the shops on Longmoor Lane (Walton Vale). But it's all a bit blurred.

* Which to add further confusion is called Kirkdale Cemetery despite definitely not being in Kirkdale! (See also Edge Hill University which is in Ormskirk but is so named because it was in Edge Hill originally).

 

[507021]

Taking to Birkenhead North would be a great interim measure until battery 777's can operate the line into the loop.

Re the Birkenhead North platform, I have noticed that the 777's seem to be using that a lot.

I don't think there's any more capacity on the loop, so Merseyrail services along the Borderlands Line would have to be end-to-end, terminating at Birkenhead North.

Whilst all true, a direct service from Heswall and Neston to Chester would do a roaring trade today.

I expect a station at Blacon would also do rather well, despite the area having plenty of buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect a station at Blacon would also do rather well, despite the area having plenty of buses.

Rail will almost* always beat bus, pretty much, not least given how dire most UK bus operation is. If you look at Manchester, each Metrolink extension near enough kills a swathe of once well-used bus routes.

* Unless the rail is particularly bad. The Flying Dentonian isn't going to harm buses from Denton/Reddish S, for instance.

 

[Djgr]

I don't think there's any more capacity on the loop, so Merseyrail services along the Borderlands Line would have to be end-to-end, terminating at Birkenhead North.



I expect a station at Blacon would also do rather well, despite the area having plenty of buses.

Well it would have done, but it's a footpath now!

I don't think there's any more capacity on the loop, so Merseyrail services along the Borderlands Line would have to be end-to-end, terminating at Birkenhead North.

Are you sure about this? The big win comes from the direct service

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure about this? The big win comes from the direct service

Unless you took from West Kirby or New Brighton by reducing that to half hourly (running 8 car to compensate). Those two branches are both the quieter ones.

 

[507021]

Rail will almost* always beat bus, pretty much, not least given how dire most UK bus operation is. If you look at Manchester, each Metrolink extension near enough kills a swathe of once well-used bus routes.

* Unless the rail is particularly bad. The Flying Dentonian isn't going to harm buses from Denton/Reddish S, for instance.

I'm aware, I was agreeing with and reinforcing Djgr's point. Lifting the line through Blacon was a shocking lack of foresight.

Well it would have done, but it's a footpath now!


Are you sure about this? The big win comes from the direct service

A very nice footpath in fairness, but I think a railway line to connect Chester with the Deeside Industrial Park and West Wirral would be more useful. As for the loop, I'm sure I heard or read somewhere the current 14tph through it is close to or at capacity, but happy to be corrected on that if I'm mistaken.

 

[Djgr]

Unless you took from West Kirby or New Brighton by reducing that to half hourly (running 8 car to compensate). Those two branches are both the quieter ones.

Not a chance. And neither of them are quiet by any means

Not a chance. And neither of them are quiet by any means

An equally unpopular alternative would be running Ellesmere Port as a shuttle from Hooton. West Kirby branch appears to generate around 3 million passenger journeys per annum and Ellesmere Port branch around 0.8 million.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No. It would be a lot cheaper to reinstate the Low Level platforms at Bank Quay. A problem with that line is that it is unsuitable for high speed running, due to numerous curved sections between Widnes and Warringon Arpley.

It would be cheaper, but you'd still practically have to knock down the chemical industry cluster just west of Bank Quay to accomplish that.
Cheaper to extend Merseyrail down the CLC to Warrington Central and use the Fiddlers' Ferry line for NPR, where they'll be no need for NPR platforms (if you wanted a station in Warrington, you'd go for the extant site of Warrington Arpley).

The Fiddler's Ferry line is mostly straight up to Sankey Bridges too, so it's not a terrible speed restriction.

I wonder what odds the major bookmakers would offer on an ORR change of mind that particular 3rd rail aspiration in that area, which I have emboldened for purposes of clarity?

I couldn't comment as I don't gamble personally......

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be cheaper, but you'd still practically have to knock down the chemical industry cluster just west of Bank Quay to accomplish that.
Cheaper to extend Merseyrail down the CLC to Warrington Central and use the Fiddlers' Ferry line for NPR, where they'll be no need for NPR platforms (if you wanted a station in Warrington, you'd go for the extant site of Warrington Arpley).

Are there not enough railway stations in the Warrington catchment area besides the two town stations? Thinking of Padgate and Birchwood on the east side and Warrington West and Sankey for Penketh on the west side.

A mention of Warrington Arpley would bring back memories of the Warrington to Broadheath line, which will have Lymm residents out in force, either for or against.