Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

[Deafdoggie]

when you buy an online daysaver you have to give a name and that person must travel and have ID, according to the terms. Is this actually enforced?

 

[waveyswirley]

Wondering if anyone can clarify this... If I try and book a ticket on Trainline from Birkenhead Park to Manchester Victoria, I'm told I have to print a ticket, but the only stations on the Merseyrail network where you can print tickets are Lime St, South Parkway and Chester. What exactly would I be expected to do in this case?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wondering if anyone can clarify this... If I try and book a ticket on Trainline from Birkenhead Park to Manchester Victoria, I'm told I have to print a ticket, but the only stations on the Merseyrail network where you can print tickets are Lime St, South Parkway and Chester. What exactly would I be expected to do in this case?

This is no longer true, you can print tickets at any Merseyrail booking office (but not the TVMs).

 

[Skie]

Wondering if anyone can clarify this... If I try and book a ticket on Trainline from Birkenhead Park to Manchester Victoria, I'm told I have to print a ticket, but the only stations on the Merseyrail network where you can print tickets are Lime St, South Parkway and Chester. What exactly would I be expected to do in this case?

You can collect tickets at any Merseyrail ticket office, so Birkenhead Park should be able to print them for you. Just need a card and the ToD reference.

They don't show up on the list of valid collection points though. That might actually be further compounding the confusion/issues. I did try to get that fixed but met a brick wall of zero understanding of the problem so gave up.

 

[Adam Williams]

You can collect tickets at any Merseyrail ticket office, so Birkenhead Park should be able to print them for you. Just need a card and the ToD reference.

They don't show up on the list of valid collection points though. That might actually be further compounding the confusion/issues. I did try to get that fixed but met a brick wall of zero understanding of the problem so gave up.

It's present and correct in the industry data. Maybe an issue with the booking system, if that's not being displayed correctly somewhere?

 

[Skie]

It's present and correct in the industry data. Maybe an issue with the booking system, if that's not being displayed correctly somewhere?

View attachment 155850

Curious! The stations just don't appear in the dropdown on our Evolvi system, but you can overtype the selected station and it will accept a Merseyrail station. I suspect it's a fudge someone has done to 'fix' Merseyrail being a pain in the past and it's just lingering now they've entered the 90's era of ticketing.

 

[TUC]

You can collect tickets at any Merseyrail ticket office, so Birkenhead Park should be able to print them for you. Just need a card and the ToD reference.
p.

Why does Merseyrail want passengers to have to leave home earlier and waste their time standing in a queue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does Merseyrail want passengers to have to leave home earlier and waste their time standing in a queue?

Because they want you to go "s** that faff" and buy from their booking office so they get the commission. They are seriously scared of losing all the commission to (mostly) Trainline. That would blow the shaky economics of their fully staffed system out of the water.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Because they want you to go "s** that faff" and buy from their booking office so they get the commission. They are seriously scared of losing all the commission to (mostly) Trainline. That would blow the shaky economics of their fully staffed system out of the water.

They don't care about the small loss they'd make on the commission etc, it would be buttons in the scheme of things.

It's not about revenue, it's about a narrative that ticket offices are still necessary and relevant despite their dwindling use and absolutely astronomical cost, therefore anything that results in a visit to one is important. It's too hot politically, especially at the moment.

Pay as you Go will come in over the next year or so, as will some new local government, who will have to no doubt deal with further financial pressures as the economy remains turbulent. The ticket office issue will become unsustainable as they become almost entirely disused, at which point they may as well go all in with the rest of the smart ticketing, at which point nobody will really care about the ticket offices, especially with level boarding at most stations available.

I'm pretty sure that in reality this is mainly down to the local PTE Merseytravel/ Liverpool City Region more than Merseyrail, (who are just hopeless at the messaging). It's always the same story at the end of a franchise/concession, everything is stored up ready for the next one, whether it's rolling stock or fares reform.

 

[Wallsendmag]

They don't care about the small loss they'd make on the commission etc, it would be buttons in the scheme of things.

It's not about revenue, it's about a narrative that ticket offices are still necessary and relevant despite their dwindling use and absolutely astronomical cost, therefore anything that results in a visit to one is important. It's too hot politically, especially at the moment.

Pay as you Go will come in over the next year or so, as will some new local government, who will have to no doubt deal with further financial pressures as the economy remains turbulent. The ticket office issue will become unsustainable as they become almost entirely disused, at which point they may as well go all in with the rest of the smart ticketing, at which point nobody will really care about the ticket offices, especially with level boarding at most stations available.

I'm pretty sure that in reality this is mainly down to the local PTE Merseytravel/ Liverpool City Region more than Merseyrail, (who are just hopeless at the messaging). It's always the same story at the end of a franchise/concession, everything is stored up ready for the next one, whether it's rolling stock or fares reform.

Sorry you seem to have some strange ideas that are way off the mark.

 

[island]

I think it's plausible that Merseytravel want to have a narrative that booking offices are necessary.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I have yet to discover an online ticket retailer which will sell me a Merseytravel Saveaway or a Merseyrail Family Card, so when I want one of those I can only buy them at the Merseyrail ticket office. My most recent trip on Merseyrail, last Saturday, involved a MerseyRail Family Ticket, and two "loophole" off-peak day returns as five of us travelled to Liverpool. We bought them all at the Birkdale ticket office. It was quick and easy. In the past I have bought tickets online for journeys not commencing at Birkdale, and collected them at the Birkdale ticket office using the so-called Ticket on Departure process, although collecting them not at the time of intended departure. And I have bought "loophole" tickets for off-peak travel on Merseyrail, collected them at a ticket office a couple of days before the intended journey.
I have bought e-tickets for travel on Northern from Southport, and the Southport gateline people have not had a problem with them, although I have "complied" with the requirement to print them out before travel, not tried just showing them on a phone.
I guess as a Senior Railcard holder without a MerseyTravel Over 60s pass, I have just had to familiarise myself with all the vagaries of MerseyRail ticketing.

 

[alistairlees]

They don't care about the small loss they'd make on the commission etc, it would be buttons in the scheme of things.

Merseyrail have publicly said that this is why they do not want to have eTickets on their network, as these tickets would then be sold by other retailers and they would have to pay 5%. Of course, they would save on card processing and fulfilment fees, but they are clearly concerned that this would undermine their economics. They aso have not taken into account that more revenue might be gained, through increased sales.

 

[TUC]

Merseyrail have publicly said that this is why they do not want to have eTickets on their network, as these tickets would then be sold by other retailers and they would have to pay 5%. Of course, they would save on card processing and fulfilment fees, but they are clearly concerned that this would undermine their economics. They aso have not taken into account that more revenue might be gained, through increased sales.

But paper tickets are sold by other retailers too?

 

[Haywain]

But paper tickets are sold by other retailers too?

Yes, but Merseyrail receive a commission for issuing ToD at their ticket offices.

 

[alistairlees]

But paper tickets are sold by other retailers too?

Etickets are much more popular than ToD

 

[northwichcat]

Merseyrail have publicly said that this is why they do not want to have eTickets on their network, as these tickets would then be sold by other retailers and they would have to pay 5%. Of course, they would save on card processing and fulfilment fees, but they are clearly concerned that this would undermine their economics. They aso have not taken into account that more revenue might be gained, through increased sales.

If TVMs move to the paper tickets with codes to scan, won't that make Merseyrail look very outdated? We can scan your codes but we can't scan them if they're on your phone screen.

 

[Djgr]

Wondering if anyone can clarify this... If I try and book a ticket on Trainline from Birkenhead Park to Manchester Victoria, I'm told I have to print a ticket, but the only stations on the Merseyrail network where you can print tickets are Lime St, South Parkway and Chester. What exactly would I be expected to do in this case?

Buy it at Birkenhead Park ticket office perhaps

Why does Merseyrail want passengers to have to leave home earlier and waste their time standing in a queue?

Never much of a queue in my experience

I have yet to discover an online ticket retailer which will sell me a Merseytravel Saveaway or a Merseyrail Family Card, so when I want one of those I can only buy them at the Merseyrail ticket office. My most recent trip on Merseyrail, last Saturday, involved a MerseyRail Family Ticket, and two "loophole" off-peak day returns as five of us travelled to Liverpool. We bought them all at the Birkdale ticket office. It was quick and easy. In the past I have bought tickets online for journeys not commencing at Birkdale, and collected them at the Birkdale ticket office using the so-called Ticket on Departure process, although collecting them not at the time of intended departure. And I have bought "loophole" tickets for off-peak travel on Merseyrail, collected them at a ticket office a couple of days before the intended journey.
I have bought e-tickets for travel on Northern from Southport, and the Southport gateline people have not had a problem with them, although I have "complied" with the requirement to print them out before travel, not tried just showing them on a phone.
I guess as a Senior Railcard holder without a MerseyTravel Over 60s pass, I have just had to familiarise myself with all the vagaries of MerseyRail ticketing.

The Merseytravel website makes it very clear where Saveaways can be bought, which doesn't include online retailers. I have never found buying one at the ticket office anything other than straightforward

I think it's plausible that Merseytravel want to have a narrative that booking offices are necessary.

There was a national campaign recently to keep ticket offices open. It appears that many on this forum want to campaign to close them on Merseyrail!!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Sorry you seem to have some strange ideas that are way off the mark.

I'm not sure exactly what you think is off the mark, everything I've said is either common sense, proved through experience or properly quoted, like the TSA extract.

It's also apparent that, unlike some of your LNER flows, a large number of TOCs have got the correct fulfilment methods enabled in RCS, mostly where Merseyrail gets no revenue apportionment, as per the TSA (that was specifically updated to include that clause in 2021). Any other communications from Merseyrail or RDG is largely irrelevant or advisory. I don't agree with much talk on this forum of anti competitive practices, such as the Govia restrictions case - but it is a cornerstone of the TSA and via various concession or franchise commitments that the owner of the flow is responsible for that flow, free from interference from others, so long as whatever they implement is legal either contractually or in compliance with any regulation, statute etc.

May be worth an FOI to GBR or LNER to see what Merseyrail or RDG have been instructing TOCs to do, because I'm more inclined to believe that you have either been misled or are voluntarily waiving your rights under TSA to keep one awkward operator happy.

If LNER is specifically choosing not to exercise their TSA rights, I'd expect to see a suitable Equality Impact Assessment given as a public sector body they are under an obligation to proactively promote concepts that enhance equality and accessibility and inclusion. Just because Merseyrail or RDG say it's ok, does not make it so.

 

[TUC]

Never much of a queue in my experience

I don't think that's the issue. Like many people, I want to just arrive at the station and get on the train. Tickets are something for sorting out at my convenience in the comfort of home.

 

[Jack Hay]

Northwich to Liverpool Stations Route:Chester displays as not available as an e-ticket on the booking engine I tried. Hartford to Liverpool Stations is available as an e-ticket. With the latter there's no reason why I can't jump off the London Northwestern service at South Parkway and get Merseyrail to Central or Moorfields. Or even remain on until Lime Street and then get Merseyrail across to James Street.

I have done exactly that, changing at Lime St for James St with an e-ticket. I had intended to buy from the TVM at Acton Bridge, my departure station that day, but it was out of service, so I bought an e-ticket on my phone. E-tickets are available to 'Liverpool stations', and staff at James St let me through the barrier. I am surprised that Deafdoggie thinks this will be rare. There is quite a large flow from the mid Cheshire stations to Liverpool and James St is a very conveniently situated station. Of course, northwichcat and I are talking about e-tickets, not TODs.

 

[Krokodil]

Or if you can't (which I dispute, there's plenty of places they could have put some portabogs)

TfW had some portabogs at Chester. They got torched.

All that nonsense confusion derives from passengers with TOD collection references who seemingly don't follow instructions to collect before boarding.

OR who (when instructed to collect their ticket before exiting the station) attempt to exit without having collected.

2 kids meeting in Liverpool. One lives in Northern land, one lives in Merseyrail land. The Northern kid buys online, issued a mobile ticket, job done. Kid 2 says great i'll try that too! But they're using Merseyrail.

Northernland kid will get a PF too. I had a woman recently who'd bought a Greenbank to Liverpool Stations ticket and failed to print off the ToD. She was PFed by a Northern RPI. Luckily for her, after I printed it off I spotted that the RPI had issued the PF through to Liverpool rather than to where she left that Northern train at Chester, so I told her that she should have grounds for appeal.

I always advise passengers when I'm issuing ToDs onboard my trains to ensure they collect them at Chester before travelling on Merseyrail if the conductor doesn't come through in future, always quite shocked. A lot of them are also quite panicked that they've opened their app and found a code. I just explain Merseyrail are stuck in 1970.

Yeah, a lot of people do get caught unawares. I'm beginning to get fed up of spending time printing ToDs. If the service is busy I'll come back to them if I have time (and otherwise they need to visit the TVM at Chester), but I've got other passengers to see who are waving cash/credit cards at me.

 

[L401CJF]

Northernland kid will get a PF too. I had a woman recently who'd bought a Greenbank to Liverpool Stations ticket and failed to print off the ToD. She was PFed by a Northern RPI. Luckily for her, after I printed it off I spotted that the RPI had issued the PF through to Liverpool rather than to where she left that Northern train at Chester, so I told her that she should have grounds for appeal.

Sorry I was thinking more along the lines of the kid from Northern Land being issued a say St Helens to Lime Street mobile/E ticket rather than a TOD, whereas their mate seeing how convenient it was thought they'd try online themselves, however doesn't get issued a nice mobile ticket like their friend and instead a few letters and numbers.

 

[Realfish]

As an aside the, full to standing, 09:04 Birmingham to Liverpool service was cancelled at LPY this morning and the pax turfed out. Advised to await a further delayed following train - many declined and headed for platform 6 and Liverpool Central, where on arrival dozens of phone screens were offered and accepted at the gateline.

 

[Adam Williams]

Sorry I was thinking more along the lines of the kid from Northern Land being issued a say St Helens to Lime Street mobile/E ticket rather than a TOD, whereas their mate seeing how convenient it was thought they'd try online themselves, however doesn't get issued a nice mobile ticket like their friend and instead a few letters and numbers.

Something to add here is that while the process of ToD might be obvious to those of us on the forum, there are some passengers now who have used digital tickets exclusively for legitimately all of the rail ticket purchases they've done in their life, depending on where they live. Then they suddenly go to Liverpool, or a TOC decides to add an additional new 20 Advance ticket tiers and forgets to make them all E-Ticketable; suddenly, disaster strikes.

Yes - they really should be reading the user interface of their ticket booking app - but I do have a little bit of sympathy. Booking sites don't present ToD as an exceptional case, worthy of red warning messages and icons that draw attention. The booking process just continues and usually the E-Ticket option is just .. silently absent. Some passengers do realise that something is different after booking, and immediately write to customer services confused - and those customers can be saved from a possible prosecution. Others don't do enough due diligence and assume since the booking is in the app, the tickets are there too. They only find out they've screwed up during the journey. Is this partially their own fault? Sure. Should the industry be doing more here, given the success of E-Tickets and the flow penetration nowadays within RCS? Probably.

How many booking sites prominently tell you that only paper tickets will be available for a particular search result, without resorting to showing/hiding a tiny grey icon?

 

[185]

Little development. I have heard there may be an audit of both the operator Merseyrail and the PTE Merseytravel, looking at how many passengers were penalty fared, prosecuted or made to pay settlements for failing to produce a TOD ticket bought online; this is to gauge the disparity between MEL and other train operators in the way they have behaved.

This will also examine the relationship between the PTE and the contractor to establish if the publicly funded PTE have behaved diligently in overseeing the performance of their contractor - ie ensuring they mitigate this problem. The buck stops with Cllr Liam Robinson - chair of Merseytravel, involved in debacle after debacle over the years.

Allegedly.

 

[yorkie]

Little development. I have heard there may be an audit of both the operator Merseyrail and the PTE Merseytravel, looking at how many passengers were penalty fared, prosecuted or made to pay settlements for failing to produce a TOD ticket bought online; this is to gauge the disparity between MEL and other train operators in the way they have behaved.

This will also examine the relationship between the PTE and the contractor to establish if the publicly funded PTE have behaved diligently in overseeing the performance of their contractor - ie ensuring they mitigate this problem. The buck stops with Cllr Liam Robinson - chair of Merseytravel, involved in debacle after debacle over the years.

Allegedly.

Good to hear.

It would also be good if all PFs could be checked for legitimacy; further up the thread there is photo of a PF warning notice, which warns of PFs in various unwarranted situations.

 

[northwichcat]

I had a woman recently who'd bought a Greenbank to Liverpool Stations ticket and failed to print off the ToD. She was PFed by a Northern RPI. Luckily for her, after I printed it off I spotted that the RPI had issued the PF through to Liverpool rather than to where she left that Northern train at Chester, so I told her that she should have grounds for appeal.

I'm presuming in this instance, she alighted a Northern train at Chester and boarded the TfW service to Liverpool. Given you say she encountered a Northern RPI and I don't think other train operators are bothered if Northern RPIs correctly enforce penalty fares or buy before you board.

 

[Sonic1234]

Merseyrail have publicly said that this is why they do not want to have eTickets on their network, as these tickets would then be sold by other retailers and they would have to pay 5%.

This is something I've always wondered with the push to eTickets. Aren't they basically saying "please give 5% to Trainline"? Yes, they recommend their own website but most will be sold by Trainline. GTR is covered in posters pushing people to swap (despite GTR being lukewarm on eTickets, they don't allow them on several ticket types).

 

[Adam Williams]

This is something I've always wondered with the push to eTickets. Aren't they basically saying "please give 5% to Trainline"? Yes, they recommend their own website but most will be sold by Trainline. GTR is covered in posters pushing people to swap (despite GTR being lukewarm on eTickets, they don't allow them on several ticket types).

As is usually the case in life, it's not quite that straightforward. They're also saying:

• Please use a fulfilment method that gives us, as operators, much better visibility of ticket usage, helping us to detect and prosecute for fraud
• Please use a fulfilment method that is less of a maintenance burden to deal with than CCST/magstripe, and takes our RPIs less time to inspect on-board trains
• If the TOC isn't selling directly, it's also "please don't bother us about any pre-sales or after-sales payment/ticketing/refund queries and use the customer support team that the retailer pays for"
• Trainline won't keep the entire 5%. Some of it will immediately go back into the rail industry