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Merseyrail new stock

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transmanche

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S7 is roughly 120m so I think 8 cars would possibly be counterproductive. (As I understand it the vehicles at the ends are longer and all are longer than 15m, so the S7 comes out at 117m).
Yes, S7 is like that (cars with cabs are about 2m longer to accommodate the cabs). But that doesn't mean that all Movia trains have to be like that. Merseyrail simply have to specify 15m cars. That means each unit can be 4x15m - doubling up where needed for an 8-car train. This might be operationally more convenient than having 4+3 or fixed formation 7-car units.
 
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HSTEd

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Say Merseyrail went for the Movia, would there be enough room for the installation of catenary in the tunnel sections?

I very much doubt it, considering when the tunnels were built.

I am not sure what you plan to gain by switching to catenary though.

Pretty much everywhere Merseyrail would be extended to could support third rail fairly easily - (except perhaps Preston and even there it looks like it could be feasible to supply a single track third rail powered approach into the station and then supply one platform for purely third rail use on the west side of the station).

Yes, S7 is like that (cars with cabs are about 2m longer to accommodate the cabs). But that doesn't mean that all Movia trains have to be like that. Merseyrail simply have to specify 15m cars. That means each unit can be 4x15m - doubling up where needed for an 8-car train. This might be operationally more convenient than having 4+3 or fixed formation 7-car units.

I am not convinced split units really provide the gains that many people claim - the fact that they have been abandoned for the Thameslink project really speaks volumes in my opinion.

As has the end of split units for the underground in favour of fixed formations.
And since there is a train available right now that meets the specification for a fixed formation train - saving the non zero engineering costs save for the simple 4th-3rd rail adaption.
 
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Wavertreelad

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I very much doubt it, considering when the tunnels were built.

I am not sure what you plan to gain by switching to catenary though.).


According to this link http://www.engineering-timelines.com/scripts/engineeringItem.asp?id=1151 the River Mersey Wirral Line tunnel were built to the following specification.

The main tunnel is lined with a 685mm thick layer of brickwork (six courses) set in cement mortar where it runs through sandstone. The brickwork is increased to eight courses where clay was encountered. It is 7.9m wide and 7m tall overall with 5.8m clearance between the rails and tunnel roof. There are recesses at 41.1m intervals on each side. The flanking tunnels are lined in four courses of brickwork. In addition to the double standard gauge tracks, telephone cables were laid in the running tunnel to improve cross-river communications.

This link http://www.storycontracting.com/rail/project-focus/87-merseyloop-an-underground-network describes the work of replacing the track in the 1970's built Wirral Loop tunnels under Liverpool and confirms the diameter of the tunnels.

Whilst I am no expert, the original tunnels would appear to have plenty of clearance for OHLE but I am not so sure about the 70's built tunnels on both the Wirral and Northern Lines, perhaps somebody can confirm?

To see the difference in the size of tunnel construction parts of in this video show the relevant sections.

http://youtu.be/MqQSrrXmrjk


Pretty much everywhere Merseyrail would be extended to could support third rail fairly easily - (except perhaps Preston and even there it looks like it could be feasible to supply a single track third rail powered approach into the station and then supply one platform for purely third rail use on the west side of the station).

This of course always assumes that the Merseyrail network remained totally a totally closed network. The problem is that in years ahead, and almost certainly within the projected life of the new stock there will be a need to open up one or more the existing Merseyrail routes for freight traffic to serve the Port of Liverpool. The present sole link is the Bootle Branch, itself a possible line that could see a return of a passenger service in the longer term, will face capacity issues because of constraints on the Chat Moss line. The only way of overcoming this problem would be to open up either the Ormskirk or Kirkby via Wigan route to freight with the construction new and/or reopening of old infrastructure to the Port of Liverpool.

On the passenger front Merseyrail has expressed an interest in operating trains to Warrington via the CLC route, electrifying this route with 3rd rail would not help other operators who use the route operate through services to Liverpool with OHLE stock.
 

HSTEd

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The other alternative will be the construction of the oft suggested high speed line between Liverpool and Manchester which would reduce the Chat Moss to a secondary and freight route.

To be honest I think political considerations will lead to Merseyrail becoming increasingly a closed system - I am really surprised that it survived privatisation as part of the network rather than being hived off at that time as an equivalent to the London Underground.

And those projections for freight traffic to the Port of Liverpool are dangerous since all the projections for the container ports of Britain come out as contradictory - they can't all grow at the rates they claim they will.
Longer freight loops on the Chat Moss and conversion of the freight to electric traction will also allow far heavier trains that will partially ameliorate the problem.

EDIT:

Also as dual voltage stock is apparently no hardship these days (implied by your insistance on it for every job) then why not simply electrify the CLC line with third rail and expect the other services over it to operate with dual voltage trains?
I would think that any Merseyrail extension would see it become the dominant service provider on the route.
 
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NotATrainspott

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Also as dual voltage stock is apparently no hardship these days (implied by your insistance on it for every job) then why not simply electrify the CLC line with third rail and expect the other services over it to operate with dual voltage trains?
I would think that any Merseyrail extension would see it become the dominant service provider on the route.

Since Merseyrail is the only system in the area which will be electrified with 750V DC top-contact third rail it would probably be easier to make Merseyrail go dual-voltage so that there is no need for either a dual-voltage Northern subfleet or specifying it for every train in the NW even when they won't require it. There isn't anything to say that a self-contained Merseyrail system is not allowed to run off 25kV AC OHLE as it does still have advantages over the current system. There is the increased safety for everyone, the greater electrical efficiency allowing more powerful trains and better regeneration and the better resilience to ice and snow on the surface to name a few. Then it means that even if the network is separated off, it is still able to engage in standard maintenance and construction procurement locally with Network Rail.

It seems the only justification for continuing with third or fourth rail across the whole system + extensions is the idea that a Movia S-Stock derivative would be used and wouldn't be able to come with 25kV capability. Apart from having more doors per train length than any other design, what advantage does the S-Stock really have over the Thameslink 700s or the Overground 378s with their walk-through carriages? Even with the same number of powered axles as the 508s any new train would be more powerful and more efficient with the new AC motors. Unless the Merseyrail network were going to need as much standing space as the Subsurface lines the reduction in seating and increase in standing space would not be particularly beneficial.
 

transmanche

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It seems the only justification for continuing with third or fourth rail across the whole system + extensions is the idea that a Movia S-Stock derivative would be used and wouldn't be able to come with 25kV capability.
I don't see why Movia and 25kV are assumed to be mutually exclusive. Movia trains operate on the Delhi Metro, which uses 25kV AC.

Apart from having more doors per train length than any other design, what advantage does the S-Stock really have over the Thameslink 700s or the Overground 378s with their walk-through carriages? Even with the same number of powered axles as the 508s any new train would be more powerful and more efficient with the new AC motors.
I suspect that they're lighter and cheaper than the Electrostar/Desiro equivalents. Plus having shorter carriages may have advantages on the Loop Line.

Unless the Merseyrail network were going to need as much standing space as the Subsurface lines the reduction in seating and increase in standing space would not be particularly beneficial.
Why do you assume that a Movia design must have less seating than any other design? The operator can tell Bombardier to fit any seating arrangement they wish.
 

Wavertreelad

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The other alternative will be the construction of the oft suggested high speed line between Liverpool and Manchester which would reduce the Chat Moss to a secondary and freight route..

I'd go along with that idea as is the most direct route between the two cities but it is obviously not the quickest south and Lime Street would be unable to handle captive stock. To save going off thread this is best discussed in the HS2 to Merseyside thread.

To be honest I think political considerations will lead to Merseyrail becoming increasingly a closed system - I am really surprised that it survived privatisation as part of the network rather than being hived off at that time as an equivalent to the London Underground...

I'm not so sure, whilst the Liverpool Greater Authority will take over strategic planning of transport from Merseytravel in a slightly enlarged area, it will not include Lancashire, Cheshire, North Wales and of course Greater Manchester, who are all likely to have different agenda.


And those projections for freight traffic to the Port of Liverpool are dangerous since all the projections for the container ports of Britain come out as contradictory - they can't all grow at the rates they claim they will.
Longer freight loops on the Chat Moss and conversion of the freight to electric traction will also allow far heavier trains that will partially ameliorate the problem.

The southern ports of Felixstowe,and Southampton are both chasing the same trades, mainly the Europe Asia and Far East Trades which will continue to grow as all the major shipping lines have vessels of 18000 teu coming on stream over the next few years. At the moment there is over capacity so the lines are dropping sailings at certain times of the year to prevent the rates dropping, but nevertheless the ships in service are still sailing at something like 85% full or more. The reason for the contradictions is that when London Gateway comes completely on stream in perhaps eighteen months time, it too will be targeting the same trades, with Felixstowe likely to be the main target, as the owners of Southampton also own London Gateway. In the meantime the Port of Liverpool riverside terminal Liverpool2 will commence operations towards the end of 2015. This will partly reduce the throughput through the southern ports for containers destined for and shipped from the north of England, depending on the carriers and trade the facility attracts. Felixstowe and London Gateway do not handle bulk traffic, whilst Southampton only handles a small amount of bulk whereas the opening of Liverpool2 will allow the Port of Liverpool to handle more bulk traffic as some of the landside port facilities are switched around, whilst the reduction of containerships negotiating the Gladstone Lock will allow more panamax bulk ships to enter the enclosed lock system. Aside from Liverpool2, the port is developing it's facilities for handling steel and scrap, as well as looking to develop facilities for biomass all of which are seen as growth areas all potential areas of growth for rail transport.


Also as dual voltage stock is apparently no hardship these days (implied by your insistance on it for every job) then why not simply electrify the CLC line with third rail and expect the other services over it to operate with dual voltage trains?
I would think that any Merseyrail extension would see it become the dominant service provider on the route.

My only reason for suggesting Merseyrail order dual voltage stock is that the conversion of the network could then be completed as and when separate extensions are added and/or infrastructure becomes due for replacement. I'm not sure other operators such as TPE and EM would go along with the prospect of having to operate a sub-fleet of dual voltage stock to serve the greater Liverpool area, nor would it help with converting freight movements from diesel to electric traction, even given the limits that are involved.
 

pablo

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Merseyrail is not Southern Commuterland. I doubt that the PTA would want re-instated the profligacy of running full-length formations all day. Having four driving ends in the peak is not the same problem ooop north.

When I left home for the smoke, I looked upon an eight-coach commuter train with wonder (in those days). :o
 

Techniquest

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Maybe not a full set all day long a la S stock, but it's definitely about time Merseyrail got 4 car trains as a minimum throughout the day. Smack on another set during a stop at Birkenhead North or Kirkdale (I'm not sure where you'd do it for the Southport-Hunts Cross trains) just before the peaks and boom, sorted.

Whatever happens, there'll be no new trains on Merseyrail for a good few years yet anyway, will there?
 

fowler9

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Maybe not a full set all day long a la S stock, but it's definitely about time Merseyrail got 4 car trains as a minimum throughout the day. Smack on another set during a stop at Birkenhead North or Kirkdale (I'm not sure where you'd do it for the Southport-Hunts Cross trains) just before the peaks and boom, sorted.

Whatever happens, there'll be no new trains on Merseyrail for a good few years yet anyway, will there?

Nah mate, Merseyrail are getting nout for a good few years.
 

Wavertreelad

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Nah mate, Merseyrail are getting nout for a good few years.

I'm not so sure, I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were building a fund to help with the cost of a replacement fleet. Interestingly this interview with the head of Merseyrail from November 2012 mentions "An OJEU notice will probably go out in spring next year" meaning 2013, but so far it has not been reported in the press, suggesting there is either a funding problem or a major change.

http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=1537

The article also confirms the lease on the 507/508 expires in 2018 but I suppose they could get a few more years out of them if needed with a short term agreement. Presumably the present operators would like to get the new stock into revenue earning service as soon as possible to reap the benefits in the remaining years of the franchise.
 

RobShipway

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I'm not so sure, I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were building a fund to help with the cost of a replacement fleet. Interestingly this interview with the head of Merseyrail from November 2012 mentions "An OJEU notice will probably go out in spring next year" meaning 2013, but so far it has not been reported in the press, suggesting there is either a funding problem or a major change.

http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=1537

The article also confirms the lease on the 507/508 expires in 2018 but I suppose they could get a few more years out of them if needed with a short term agreement. Presumably the present operators would like to get the new stock into revenue earning service as soon as possible to reap the benefits in the remaining years of the franchise.

I am sure that there has been the same sort of article within the last few years within Rail magazine about Merseyrail, where they confirmed within the next few years they plane to look at replacing the 507/508 with new stock either from Bombardier or Siemens. If my memory is correct, then this suggests to me that they have been looking at either Bombardier 377/378 type stock or Siemens class 350/380 type stock, both of which are dual voltage. Dual voltage trains on Merseyrail would make sense, so that they can be used on the existing 3rd rail system, but also be used on longer services to the likes of Preston etc....

Problem is would a class 377/378 or 350/380 fit side by side successfully through the tunnels within the Merseyrail network, if not then I can see either the class 313's being refurbished to be moved North or a new modern version of the class 313 being built for Merseyrail based on maybe the class 378.
 

pablo

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....

Problem is would a class 377/378 or 350/380 fit side by side successfully through the tunnels within the Merseyrail network, if not then I can see either the class 313's being refurbished to be moved North or a new modern version of the class 313 being built for Merseyrail based on maybe the class 378.

What makes you think they wouldn't? The tunnels accomodated through carriages to Paris once upon a time. :o
 

TheGrew

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What makes you think they wouldn't? The tunnels accomodated through carriages to Paris once upon a time. :o

Yeah the Wirral line tunnels did but I think the reference was to the Northern Line loop services with newer (and smaller) tunnels.
 

Manchester77

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I don't think a 380 could since they have 23 metre long coaches but I don't think there would be much of an issue with a 350
 

northwichcat

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Two points relating to 350s:
1. A 350 with 3rd rail equipment and no pantograph is a 450.
2. The 350s and 450s are an outdated design and I don't think Siemens would reopen the production line again once the 350/3s have been delivered.
 

jopsuk

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Indeed- whatever Merseyrail DO get will be whatever the most up to date stock from manufacturers that choose to bid is.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I don't think a 380 could since they have 23 metre long coaches but I don't think there would be much of an issue with a 350

Even 20m carriages are less than ideal for the city centre loop and the stock transfer line. They fit, but increase track wear which led to a derailment in the loop tunnel a few years back- hence why something based on the 'Movia' platform (S-stock) with 17-18m vehicles would be better, as it would reduce track maintenance costs.
 

Class83

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Surely track wear is a function of the distance between wheels on the bogies, so probably no difference with vehicle length or does tube stock have shorter bogies? 142 type non-bogied stock would be completely unsuitable. Clearly, the overhang at the middle of the carriage will increase with longer vehicles but 507/8s are 20m so that is fine.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Surely track wear is a function of the distance between wheels on the bogies, so probably no difference with vehicle length or does tube stock have shorter bogies? 142 type non-bogied stock would be completely unsuitable. Clearly, the overhang at the middle of the carriage will increase with longer vehicles but 507/8s are 20m so that is fine.

That might be the variable that needs attention, yeah. All I know is that I think the investigation into the loop derailment found that the track had been subjected to greater strain than thought, resulting in the rails being pushed apart causing the derailment. I'm not an engineer though, and I'm also on my mobile so can't link to the accident report. :oops:
 

Wavertreelad

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That might be the variable that needs attention, yeah. All I know is that I think the investigation into the loop derailment found that the track had been subjected to greater strain than thought, resulting in the rails being pushed apart causing the derailment. I'm not an engineer though, and I'm also on my mobile so can't link to the accident report. :oops:

I'm not an engineer either but as I understand the problem, the shorter the wheelbase, the less wear on the track and one way of reducing this I believe is for the axles to have the ability to steer into the bend, in the same way that some long buses, coach and trucks link the rear axle to the front steering to help the vehicle negotiate a turn. The other problem is the damp conditions in the tunnels themselves due to the rising water table under Liverpool city centre. This I believe caused components in the original track to wear much quicker than expected and allowing the track to split resulting in the derailment. If I'm not mistaken this is why the track in the loop tunnels was replaced with slab track a year or two ago.

The recent fatal accident involving a passenger trying to board a moving train at James Street highlighted the problem of the gap between the train and platform, so I can't see the new stock being longer than the 507/508's and perhaps this could be one of the reasons why the order has been delayed if the design has had to be altered in some way?

The new tunnels are definitely of a smaller diameter than the original under river Mersey Tunnels, what however is not clear is if they have sufficient clearance to allow OHLE. One of my earlier posts on this thread included the relevant dimensions.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The new tunnels are definitely of a smaller diameter than the original under river Mersey Tunnels, what however is not clear is if they have sufficient clearance to allow OHLE. One of my earlier posts on this thread included the relevant dimensions.

The modern tunnels only need to be able to pass a dual-voltage EMU with lowered pantograph though, as there is no plan to wire any of the current 3rd rail sections.
Wiring would be for surface extensions.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The modern tunnels only need to be able to pass a dual-voltage EMU with lowered pantograph though, as there is no plan to wire any of the current 3rd rail sections.
Wiring would be for surface extensions.

Indeed. The reasons for the longer-term plan to replace the Southern DC network with AC (greater efficiency at higher speeds, for example) don't really apply to the Merseyrail network- even if they did, the underground sections would probably stay as they are.
 

razor89

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Surely track wear is a function of the distance between wheels on the bogies, so probably no difference with vehicle length or does tube stock have shorter bogies? 142 type non-bogied stock would be completely unsuitable. Clearly, the overhang at the middle of the carriage will increase with longer vehicles but 507/8s are 20m so that is fine.

This is a factor but carriage lengths are also relevant. A longer carriage means the bogies have to turn to a greater angle with respect to the carriage itself. The problem with allowing bogies to turn freely is that, on straight sections of track, they become prone to hunting oscillations which can affect ride quality, wear on the track/ train wheels and can be dangerous if they get strong enough. Dampers therefore have to be used to reduce these oscillations, which also restrict movement when negotiating curves, hence the problem.
 

Wavertreelad

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The modern tunnels only need to be able to pass a dual-voltage EMU with lowered pantograph though, as there is no plan to wire any of the current 3rd rail sections.
Wiring would be for surface extensions.

Indeed. The reasons for the longer-term plan to replace the Southern DC network with AC (greater efficiency at higher speeds, for example) don't really apply to the Merseyrail network- even if they did, the underground sections would probably stay as they are.

As it stands at the moment, I would agree totally, but as we all know things do change and in the lifetime of the new stock, assuming that it is built from new there could be major changes to the present network which would take it from a more or less closed network to a more open network.

Extending the network from Kirkby to Wigan, or Ormskirk to Preston would also allow these lines to be used as an alternative route for freight trains to and from the Port of Liverpool. The Mersey-Dee (Halton) curve route to Ellesmere Port if electrified would allow through dual voltage electric trains to operate on the route, but Peel Ports also have plans to develop a rail connected freight village at the site of the former Bridgewater Paper Mill at Ellesmere Port as well at Ince. At the same time as the economy of the area improves and the population grows there is likely to be a need to provide more or frequent trains across the network placing further pressure on the existing infrastructure.

There is also the question of the age of some the existing power supply and signalling which at some point in the lifetime of the stock is probably going to have to be replaced. So whilst it might be necessary to maintain the third rail through the new tunnels if the clearances prohibit the use of the raised pantograph, I could forsee a decision to wire the rest of the network on a gradual basis, linked to any new extensions being electrified.
 

158722

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There is also the question of the age of some the existing power supply and signalling which at some point in the lifetime of the stock is probably going to have to be replaced. So whilst it might be necessary to maintain the third rail through the new tunnels if the clearances prohibit the use of the raised pantograph, I could forsee a decision to wire the rest of the network on a gradual basis, linked to any new extensions being electrified.

Indeed, the Northern line being the obvious one to get the overhead first - One day, when Manchester via Warrington Central to Hunts Cross gets wired then on to Southport direct services? Ormskirk to Southport reinstated and wired, Southport to Wigan wired, Preston to Southport still diesel via other reinstated Burscough curve, plus Kirby to Wigan also wired.
 

baldyman26

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Here is my though basis ref Merseyrail new stock. I firmly believe a re-work of the existing trains will happen. They are tried / tested and fairly reliable. And with similar units soon to be replaced around the country, there should be no shortage of extra stock that can be reworked in a similar fashion. And here is my reason why. Merseyrail works fine as it is. All this talk of line extensions etc are just that, talk. Any monies being spent on feasibility studies are coming from some European pot somewhere that has to be spent to satisfy a pen pusher.. Passengers don't think twice about having to change trains to get to where they are going, so for this reason money doesn't need to be spent, and with the rail network almost running to capacity, can any spare space for turnarounds be found at the likes of Warrington, Wigan and Preston etc.

Believe me I'm no expert and will probably be shot down for saying this, but it doesn't seem logical to be designing trains for this purpose if our politicians views towards the state of Northern England's Railways will never change.. So that is why I think the delays are happening and why Merseyrail are currently giving the fleet a lick of paint. They probably want line extensions, but know that there is every chance it won't happen. Going to the expense of designing a whole new fleet when they can effectively renew the current one for maybe another 20 years doesn't seem logical.
 
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