Merseyrail new stock

[martynbristow]

Well if you read this a while back they've hired someone to look into the replacement.
And the overcrowding is a serious problem, there's weekends when standing room only becomes a luxury.
I'm frustrated with there prioritise. They seem to be more interested in expanding than caring for there current service.
You can't pickup a set of DC units in ASDA (or even Waitrose) so when there becomes a serious issue 5 years or so down the line your going to be stuck with ancient units and a failing service.
If you read the minutes of the meeting they go on about HS2 and how expansion can help yet forgetting the bread and butter.
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Tbh i dont really have a problem with the 507/508 Class, could do with adding a Toilet into them and adding a few more Trains as overcrowding is starting to show but overall the Trains themselves aint that bad

They aren't adding toilets and have no intention of doing so as they have added toilets to a number of stations, although not always serviceable.

 

[fowler9]

Well if you read this a while back they've hired someone to look into the replacement.
And the overcrowding is a serious problem, there's weekends when standing room only becomes a luxury.
I'm frustrated with there prioritise. They seem to be more interested in expanding than caring for there current service.
You can't pickup a set of DC units in ASDA (or even Waitrose) so when there becomes a serious issue 5 years or so down the line your going to be stuck with ancient units and a failing service.
If you read the minutes of the meeting they go on about HS2 and how expansion can help yet forgetting the bread and butter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They aren't adding toilets and have no intention of doing so as they have added toilets to every station, although not always serviceable.

Honestly, they really haven't got toilets at every station. They aren't there and as far as I am aware there are no plans to install them at every station.

 

[martynbristow]

It may have been in the concession agreement but they have added toilets at a number of stations now Maghull, Town Green, Green Lane.
They opted for stations and not to put them on the train.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Err, thats a real over egged story, simply he said he had nothing to announce at the present time. The 30 year strategy hints at them ordering a new fleet of DC units but with options for further dual voltage units.

Totally agree. Typical example of the media stirring it up to fill a column inch or two.

The 30 year strategy contains only proposals which first have to be adopted by the Greater Liverpool Combined Authority and then fully investigated to ascertain if the projects are technically possible and attain a satisfactory business case which may well reduce the number of projects the authority will take forward for final approval. The added complication is that some of the proposals involve extending the existing network over routes currently operated by Northern Rail/TPE whose franchises have only a short life span remaining let alone ATW so until the future boundaries of the network and future make up of the new franchises is determined it is clearly difficult for Merseytravel to reach final decisions. However, whilst the 30 year strategy does hint at metro style dual voltage stock, there is always the prospect that the authority may also opt to also use replacement refurbished stock for some use on some services which may become available at a later stage.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think it will be all or nothing, I dont think it will make financial sense for a heavy overhaul of only part of the existing fleet. They invited expressions of interest a year ago to 'test the market' and hired a procurement director on a six figure salary, theyve got £50m in the bank and full control of their franchise area. Expect a formal invitation to tender for something like 60 trains with options for a further 50 as soon as next Northern franchise is signed. They probably would have ordered this year if the franchising fiasco hadnt happened and direct awards given.

 

[martynbristow]

It's worth reading the minutes of the meeting.
They've postponed a decision they've postponed already because there more concerned about opening new stations and HS2
You can't run more trains with less stock.

The problem is you have growing passenger figures and static figure in terms of capacity.
People will rightly be ****ed off at a lack of progress.

 

[Wavertreelad]

It's worth reading the minutes of the meeting.
They've postponed a decision they've postponed already because there more concerned about opening new stations and HS2
You can't run more trains with less stock.

The problem is you have growing passenger figures and static figure in terms of capacity.
People will rightly be ****ed off at a lack of progress.

True people might rightly complain on the overcrowding, but imagine the outcry if they had ordered stock and then found that as a result of the award of the new franchise arrangements the stock was not suitable for the purpose. The Echo then might correctly complain about the waste of money, ala Merseytram which is why probably Merseytravel is being so cagey.

In a worse case scenario when the 313 start becoming available, perhaps Merseyrail could hire a few sets to strengthen existing services and thereby reduce overcrowding.

 

[martynbristow]

True people might rightly complain on the overcrowding, but imagine the outcry if they had ordered stock and then found that as a result of the award of the new franchise arrangements the stock was not suitable for the purpose. The Echo then might correctly complain about the waste of money, ala Merseytram which is why probably Merseytravel is being so cagey.

In a worse case scenario when the 313 start becoming available, perhaps Merseyrail could hire a few sets to strengthen existing services and thereby reduce overcrowding.

Well true, but isn't the Merseytram fiasco similar to this one, pay someone a huge amount to decide were not doing it. You would want a fairly standard set of dual voltage stock anyway given the current changes and plans that have sat around for years.
Although your limiting factor is going to be the tunnel anyway

 

[southern442]

Tbh i dont really have a problem with the 507/508 Class, could do with adding a Toilet into them and adding a few more Trains as overcrowding is starting to show but overall the Trains themselves aint that bad

Agreed. Although they are old and 3 cars is slowly becoming insufficient, they do their job and do it well.

 

[martynbristow]

Agreed. Although they are old and 3 cars is slowly becoming insufficient, they do their job and do it well.

Indeed they do but 5 years down the line they will be struggling again.
Although scouters are apparently having there way with them again, some drunk approached me last night moaning there was a whole seat missing , and it was :P
Maybe they don't want to trust us with something new.

Newer stock would have improved accelerations and more efficient doors

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Newer stock would have improved accelerations and more efficient doors

Not necessarily.
When a class 185 or 350 (probably all Desiros) stops, you always have to wait 7 seconds before the doors are released.
But with passenger controls new trains would at least keep the heat in in winter.

 

[martynbristow]

Not necessarily.
When a class 185 or 350 (probably all Desiros) stops, you always have to wait 7 seconds before the doors are released.
But with passenger controls new trains would at least keep the heat in in winter.

I wasn't thinking about UK rail stock.
London Underground i think was a bit quicker and if you head out to Berlin the U-Bahn have mighty quick doors, caught my mates out on a stag do back in May :P

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Plug doors wouldn't really be needed on Merseyrail though, 376s (or 700s!) would be the modern benchmark. If and when new stock is ordered, it shouldn't be beyond manufacturers to fit doors that open automatically at the city centre stations but also have controls that are activated by the crew on the outer extremes of the network.

It is rather a shame that the ex LO and SET 508s weren't put into 'warm store' rather than being dumped at Eastleigh. That ship has sailed, sunk, and been turned into an artificial reef by now though!

 

[baldyman26]

Do we honestly think that Merseyrail will see any new rolling stock within the next 15 years. I very much doubt it. In fact in my opinion with that article I feel like the seed has been sewn and the subject will go quiet (especially if the current stocks remain reliable)

 

[WatcherZero]

Not necessarily.
When a class 185 or 350 (probably all Desiros) stops, you always have to wait 7 seconds before the doors are released.
But with passenger controls new trains would at least keep the heat in in winter.

The interlocks, I dont mind them, its a practical safety feature. Ive been on pacers before which have been moving while the doors were still open or not fully closed, once I even had my arm stuck in the door when the train set off. I just wish they wernt so noisy!

 

[Wolfie]

Breaking & Worrying news!!
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/transport-authority-cannot-say-merseyrail-7697049

It seems MerseyTravel couldn't give a monkies about it and don't want to spend the money

MerseyTravel want to drag out the existing units until they fall apart because they'd rather push on with expanding the network :/
Is it just me or is that bonkers.
You don't have enough rolling stock, its time expiring, doesn't offer the best for passengers and fails due to age a bit, yet your trying to open more stations and extend!
Hmmmm ...

The current rolling stock could be supplemented/augmented with 313s, perhaps modified as per Southern or Merseyide themselves, eg the Moorgate et al rolling stock which are to be replaced. Also the 508s which were broken up and presumably some of the 315s maight be a useful source of spares....

 

[Wavertreelad]

Well true, but isn't the Merseytram fiasco similar to this one, pay someone a huge amount to decide were not doing it. You would want a fairly standard set of dual voltage stock anyway given the current changes and plans that have sat around for years.
Although your limiting factor is going to be the tunnel anyway

The Echo are commenting that Merseytravel should get on with it, well if they can find the stock perhaps they can come up with a solution.

As far as I know the 313's will fit through the tunnels and should have sufficient life in them to serve on Merseyrail until replacements were available. Better to have a few extra old trains, than none at all.

 

[jopsuk]

313s would definitely fit, some were run before the 507/508 fleet were constructed. A 507/508, in three car formation, is essentially a 313 minus the AC equipment and pantograph well

 

[al.currie93]

Hmm, I agree about replacements being unlikely... new trains are becoming ever more expensive and difficult to procure, and we need all the rolling stock we can get at the moment! Cascades of other PEP stock is the best you can hope for I reckon...

 

[mwmbwls]

Plug doors wouldn't really be needed on Merseyrail though, 376s (or 700s!) would be the modern benchmark. If and when new stock is ordered, it shouldn't be beyond manufacturers to fit doors that open automatically at the city centre stations but also have controls that are activated by the crew on the outer extremes of the network.

It is rather a shame that the ex LO and SET 508s weren't put into 'warm store' rather than being dumped at Eastleigh. That ship has sailed, sunk, and been turned into an artificial reef by now though!

At the risk of changing this discussion from Traction and Rolling Stock to Infrastructure, might I suggest that a holistic approach is developed - whereby the next generation of Merseyrail rolling stock is operated on a DOO basis with step free platforms and Platform Edge Doors at busy central stations. I don't recall this being suggested in the recent thirty year plan.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In theory - "spare" 313;s would /could be very cheap - and the economics of running a 6 car off peak are only EC4T (traction costs) + wear and tear + station access costs. In other words a few quid per journey. A bit more of a deal for the customers at not much extra cost. (Until new trains become really neccesary) -

 

[martynbristow]

At the risk of changing this discussion from Traction and Rolling Stock to Infrastructure, might I suggest that a holistic approach is developed - whereby the next generation of Merseyrail rolling stock is operated on a DOO basis with step free platforms and Platform Edge Doors at busy central stations. I don't recall this being suggested in the recent thirty year plan.

Very well said
Although I'm sure theres a contract out for you now :P
I like the idea. This is how it is in Munich and Berlin.
There will be the usual DOO arguments and the cost will be astronomical but it would take Merseyrail into a new league.

In the recent RUS from Network Rail they said Liverpool Central wasn't fit for purpose, so they all went ahead with a like for like replacement basically.

The problem is if you wanted to improve the network as such it should have been included in the recent work which I don't think it was.
And such rolling stock procurement would take longer.

Getting in 313's or whatever will fit would help but Merseyrail knocked back the 508's being sent back on the grounds of cost.
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In theory - "spare" 313;s would /could be very cheap - and the economics of running a 6 car off peak are only EC4T (traction costs) + wear and tear + station access costs. In other words a few quid per journey. A bit more of a deal for the customers at not much extra cost. (Until new trains become really neccesary) -

I don't know the exact costs but I'm sure that
313's cost more than not bothering :P Merseytravel/Merseyrail wouldn't get anything from it really, until they have to hire sardine packers they won't be interested $$

 

[prod_pep]

The Liverpool Central refurb has certainly brightened the place up, but it has done precious little to improve the crowding the Northern Line platform sees. A small area of additional space has been created where an area between the escalators has been opened up, but it isn't a significant improvement.

I understood a failure to agree leasing fees with the 508/3s led to them being rejected by Merseyrail. The GN 313s are leased by Eversholt and not Angel Trains, so that may (or may not) prove an advantage in agreeing a plan this time around.

 

[martynbristow]

The Liverpool Central refurb has certainly brightened the place up, but it has done precious little to improve the crowding the Northern Line platform sees. A small area of additional space has been created where an area between the escalators has been opened up, but it isn't a significant improvement.

I understood a failure to agree leasing fees with the 508/3s led to them being rejected by Merseyrail. The GN 313s are leased by Eversholt and not Angel Trains, so that may (or may not) prove an advantage in agreeing a plan this time around.

Well heres hope for the 503's
For the money that spent I feel we got a rough deal as passengers at Central. It took long enough!
So it all came down to ££s we as passengers weren't worth it

 

[Swirlz]

I don't think any new stock is coming soon!

The 507/508 fleet is currently through the process of getting GSM-R installed, if not already completed.

In addition, Merseyrail is actually cancelling the additional "peak time" extras, and there's a possibility that redundancy (or more likely no replacements for retirement etc) will follow:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/rail-union-warns-cuts-merseyside-7710585

 

[prod_pep]

In addition, Merseyrail is actually cancelling the additional "peak time" extras, and there's a possibility that redundancy (or more likely no replacements for retirement etc) will follow:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/rail-union-warns-cuts-merseyside-7710585

Merseyrail have already confirmed that this story is untrue: http://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/spring-2015-timetable-statement.aspx.

 

[Swirlz]

Merseyrail have already confirmed that this story is untrue: http://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/spring-2015-timetable-statement.aspx.

The irony is that management have informed staff internally that they planned to remove the peak time extras!

RMT go to the press as a result, and, all of a sudden, Merseyrail back track!

 

[Olaf]

Breaking & Worrying news!!
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/transport-authority-cannot-say-merseyrail-7697049

It seems MerseyTravel couldn't give a monkies about it and don't want to spend the money

MerseyTravel want to drag out the existing units until they fall apart because they'd rather push on with expanding the network :/
Is it just me or is that bonkers.
You don't have enough rolling stock, its time expiring, doesn't offer the best for passengers and fails due to age a bit, yet your trying to open more stations and extend!
Hmmmm ...

Dreadful planning; plus the article suggest that they will have spent £4.3M on procurement without any outcome - sounds like jobs for the boys again.

If they went for a generic product, perhaps in common with the Rail North initiatives, there would be more options around feet size and make up.

It is possible they are dragging this out until after the next general election, but I am not sure what that would achieve.
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Totally agree. Typical example of the media stirring it up to fill a column inch or two.

The 30 year strategy contains only proposals which first have to be adopted by the Greater Liverpool Combined Authority and then fully investigated to ascertain if the projects are technically possible and attain a satisfactory business case which may well reduce the number of projects the authority will take forward for final approval. The added complication is that some of the proposals involve extending the existing network over routes currently operated by Northern Rail/TPE whose franchises have only a short life span remaining let alone ATW so until the future boundaries of the network and future make up of the new franchises is determined it is clearly difficult for Merseytravel to reach final decisions. However, whilst the 30 year strategy does hint at metro style dual voltage stock, there is always the prospect that the authority may also opt to also use replacement refurbished stock for some use on some services which may become available at a later stage.

The article is fairly accurate on the back story; a position was created for someone to look at the options for the replacement fleet about two to three years ago. Nothing came of that, but they managed to spend £1.3M on it. Last year, or earlier this year they announced a life extension program to the existing fleet to tide it over, but as yet there is still no outcome from the procurement exercise with the suggestion that expenditure expected to reach £4.3M at end of last financial year. That is an extraordinary rate of burn with nothing to show for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Liverpool Central refurb has certainly brightened the place up, but it has done precious little to improve the crowding the Northern Line platform sees. A small area of additional space has been created where an area between the escalators has been opened up, but it isn't a significant improvement.

IIRC that the work on the platforms was only intended as an interim step, with the RUS indicating that more extensive work would be required in CP6. The latest wish-list mentions possible options for Central station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The irony is that management have informed staff internally that they planned to remove the peak time extras!

RMT go to the press as a result, and, all of a sudden, Merseyrail back track!

If they had got to the point of announcing the suggested cuts, they would not be in a position to back-track.

 

[childwallblues]

313s would definitely fit, some were run before the 507/508 fleet were constructed. A 507/508, in three car formation, is essentially a 313 minus the AC equipment and pantograph well

At least two 313s were sent to Kirkdale before the arrival of the 507s. 313013 was noted on the Kirkby line whilst 313003 was noted on Kirkdale Depot.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If they went for a generic product, perhaps in common with the Rail North initiatives, there would be more options around fleet size and make up.

I'm tempted to say that Merseytravel only have themselves to blame.
They wanted a concession to give them "local control", but are now not in a position to procure a new fleet.
If Merseyrail was a regular franchise, there would now be proper industry focus on what to do with the operation.

Over the next 12 months, some kind of new deal will be formulated for Northern electric stock for the new franchise.
It's most likely to involve refurbishing and upgrading about 40 units from the class 319 fleet (with more available).
Merseyrail could piggy back on that to derive a dual-voltage unit suitable for them.
Among other synergies Abellio has a finger in both operations.
Maintenance costs could also be shared with Northern - Allerton depot interfaces with both networks after all.
That presumes a 319-type unit will work in the tunnels and round the network.
Maybe Merseytravel are just waiting for the cascade options to firm up before deciding what to do.
They are part of Rail North, after all.