Merseyrail security guards broke train passenger's leg twice - Liverpool Echo article 30/04/2021

[Dr Hoo]

Yes, BTP do have PCSOs and Specials too.

The main problem is that outside of major cities BTP are very thin on the ground. Very often there are no BTP officers available to respond to incidents hence the railway having to employ other agencies to cover. Basically in many cases they're all there is- contracted security staff or nothin g

I can sort of understand that there is unlikely to be a BTP officer available at somewhere like Sheringham or Whitehaven but this incident occurred at, er, Liverpool Central.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can sort of understand that there is unlikely to be a BTP officer available at somewhere like Sheringham or Whitehaven but this incident occurred at, er, Liverpool Central.

I don't to be honest have any problem with private security guards providing security at a railway station any more than I have a problem with private security guards providing security at shops. A staffed railway station is little more than a shop selling travel. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to have such a person to chuck people out who are not behaving to acceptable standards, or to prevent people stealing goods (in the shop case).

What I have a problem with is the gross incompetence and thuggishness that pervades the industry.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

While I fully agree that the heavy handedness of the security staff should not have led to this happening, what isn't reported is how the individual was behaving which may or may not have played a part on how the security staff reacted. Absolutely two wrongs don't make a right, this chap shouldn't have received life changing injuries, but if he was refused travel because he was too drunk to travel then what was his behaviour like at the time he was ejected? Therefore should this have been a police matter?

 

[Wyrleybart]

While I fully agree that the heavy handedness of the security staff should not have led to this happening, what isn't reported is how the individual was behaving which may or may not have played a part on how the security staff reacted. Absolutely two wrongs don't make a right, this chap shouldn't have received life changing injuries, but if he was refused travel because he was too drunk to travel then what was his behaviour like at the time he was ejected? Therefore should this have been a police matter?

I read through this thread and was about to post when I read your's
There appear to have been three people involved in this incident - two security staff and a drunken passenger. The vast majority of this thread has been about the two security staff and their company, with practically nothing about the passenger who was clearly causing such a nuisance that the staff were trying to evict hiom from railway premises. Drunks come in several forms - the happy type who grin inanely and say stupid things but are generally pretty harmless, those who are nasty and aggressive and who want to fight the world, and allothers in between. What about the law abiding people who pay their fares and expect to travel in safety, but are intimidated and frightened by the drunken person who is clearly causing concern ?

I actually feel for the Carlisle employees who have to deal with these people but i guess it takes a certain type of person to do the job.

 

[lordbusiness]

I can sort of understand that there is unlikely to be a BTP officer available at somewhere like Sheringham or Whitehaven but this incident occurred at, er, Liverpool Central.

Fair point and I wouldn't disagree.

I'd love to see more BTP presence on stations and trains but unfortunately that's never going to happen, there just isn't the resources to do it. Not enough boots on the ground.

This leads to the same problem all forces have, policing must largely be 'intelligence led' and calls for service prioritised on a threat/ risk/ harm basis. It doesn't help that the sheer range of stuff frontline officers have to deal with- vulnerable persons on tfhe network for instance can take often take an inordinate amount of time to deal with, it's not unknown for officers to spend a whole shift 'nursemaiding' a VP while secure accommodation is found or waiting to hand someone over to another agency. If you've only got 4 officers on duty to cover your patch you can see what quickly happens.

I'm not running down the frontline officers who are doing the best they can but the odds are stacked against them.

 

[allotments]

Last year I was returning home from work on Tfwrail train at Chester when 2 security personnel dressed like police looking like nightclub bouncers asked to see my ticket

I asked who they were and who they were and didn't get a proper reply - never seen them before. I said I would show ticket to railway personnel when requested.

A third security man on the platform signalled to pull me off the train

They were about to try to extract me against my will when the train had to go ～ I feared physical manhandling ～ this is a common law assault.

I reported this to Tfwrail who said this shouldn't happen and these security never check tickets now

A week later I asked one of the security involved if they were really about to pull me off the train and he said yes.

The security don't dress similar to police now either.

I really object to having bouncers on trains because bad things will happen and the train feels like an uncomfortable environment.

 

[AlterEgo]

I read through this thread and was about to post when I read your's
There appear to have been three people involved in this incident - two security staff and a drunken passenger. The vast majority of this thread has been about the two security staff and their company, with practically nothing about the passenger who was clearly causing such a nuisance that the staff were trying to evict hiom from railway premises. Drunks come in several forms - the happy type who grin inanely and say stupid things but are generally pretty harmless, those who are nasty and aggressive and who want to fight the world, and allothers in between. What about the law abiding people who pay their fares and expect to travel in safety, but are intimidated and frightened by the drunken person who is clearly causing concern ?

I actually feel for the Carlisle employees who have to deal with these people but i guess it takes a certain type of person to do the job.

They broke his leg, which is why people are talking about the rented thugs and not the victim here.

 

[357]

I read through this thread and was about to post when I read your's
There appear to have been three people involved in this incident - two security staff and a drunken passenger. The vast majority of this thread has been about the two security staff and their company, with practically nothing about the passenger who was clearly causing such a nuisance that the staff were trying to evict hiom from railway premises. Drunks come in several forms - the happy type who grin inanely and say stupid things but are generally pretty harmless, those who are nasty and aggressive and who want to fight the world, and allothers in between. What about the law abiding people who pay their fares and expect to travel in safety, but are intimidated and frightened by the drunken person who is clearly causing concern ?

I actually feel for the Carlisle employees who have to deal with these people but i guess it takes a certain type of person to do the job.

So being drunk and causing a nuisance is a reasonable reason to have your legs broken?

 

[Intermodal]

Sir Robert Mark the former Met Police Commissioner, who started out as a PC. After he retired told a story about as a Constable in Manchester in the 1940's arresting drunks at closing down. One of them would not go into the Police van and a Police Officer hit the drunk's leg with his truncheon, breaking it. Now the Police Offiicer would be prosecuted and fired. Then the drunk with his leg in plaster and the Police Officer were at the Magistrates Court the next day having a laugh about it.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting it is preferable to have police/security breaking people's legs unnecessarily when the same end can be achieved without lasting physical harm?

 

[Wyrleybart]

They broke his leg, which is why people are talking about the rented thugs and not the victim here.

Oh yes. Totally understand, and power crazed people in a uniform should definitely not being anywhere near railway passengers. Neither should they have broken the guy's leg in two places. I was merely speculating to myself what the drunk had gotten up to to find himself manhandled in such a way as to have his leg broken

 

[Intermodal]

Oh yes. Totally understand, and power crazed people in a uniform should definitely not being anywhere near railway passengers. Neither should they have broken the guy's leg in two places. I was merely speculating to myself what the drunk had gotten up to to find himself manhandled in such a way as to have his leg broken

I'm sorry, no, you don't understand.

They broke his leg.

It doesn't matter what he was doing, it's not proportional. You never have to break someone's leg. Police don't break people's legs when arresting violent criminals, they used approved control techniques.

Whatever the chap was doing is irrelevant, the security staff should not have broken his leg.

 

[357]

Oh yes. Totally understand, and power crazed people in a uniform should definitely not being anywhere near railway passengers. Neither should they have broken the guy's leg in two places. I was merely speculating to myself what the drunk had gotten up to to find himself manhandled in such a way as to have his leg broken

Having worked for another TOC that used these thugs, it could have been something as simple as he didn't have a ticket.

 

[warwickshire]

WMT use contract security for anti suicide patrols and gatelines out of hours (they have no revenue role so can't do any more than point people to the TVM, but it is an effective deterrent against casual evasion), I don't think it's the same company, though. They generally seem OK.

Firm used is Ses group.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I'm sorry, no, you don't understand.

They broke his leg.

It doesn't matter what he was doing, it's not proportional. You never have to break someone's leg. Police don't break people's legs when arresting violent criminals, they used approved control techniques.

Whatever the chap was doing is irrelevant, the security staff should not have broken his leg.

Pardon me, but I do understand. If the drunk was acting like the vast majority of normal citizens who successfully travel on trains without any security intervention, then his leg would not have been broken. The fact he was troubling the staff was the cause.

As I said previously, he should not have been injured by "rentathug" and Merseytravel needs to get it's act together PDQ, and I am in no way condoning what CCS have done, but the victim's inebriated state led to the incident and you cannot deny that.

 

[Intermodal]

Pardon me, but I do understand. If the drunk was acting like the vast majority of normal citizens who successfully travel on trains without any security intervention, then his leg would not have been broken. The fact he was troubling the staff was the cause.

As I said previously, he should not have been injured by "rentathug" and Merseytravel needs to get it's act together PDQ, and I am in no way condoning what CCS have done, but the victim's inebriated state led to the incident and you cannot deny that.

Nice victim blaming.

I suppose you take the same view of drunken girls who unfortunately are raped? Well, if they weren't drunk it would've never happened...

 

[AlterEgo]

Pardon me, but I do understand. If the drunk was acting like the vast majority of normal citizens who successfully travel on trains without any security intervention, then his leg would not have been broken. The fact he was troubling the staff was the cause.

As I said previously, he should not have been injured by "rentathug" and Merseytravel needs to get it's act together PDQ, and I am in no way condoning what CCS have done, but the victim's inebriated state led to the incident and you cannot deny that.

The fact the staff were thugs are the cause of the broken leg.

 

[paddingtonGWR]

I'm sorry, no, you don't understand.

They broke his leg.

It doesn't matter what he was doing, it's not proportional. You never have to break someone's leg. Police don't break people's legs when arresting violent criminals, they used approved control techniques.

Whatever the chap was doing is irrelevant, the security staff should not have broken his leg.

The police DO break people's legs while arresting members of the public.

Have a look on YouTube

 

[73001]

There is clearly a training issue here... if they had the man up against the wall, how did he then turn around to face them? He should have been restrained in that position and then the two security frogmarch him out or detain him in that position until police arrive. In an ideal world anyway. We weren't there but the fact that it's got this far shows that they used an inappropriate amount of force... a bit of red mist possibly descended once the incident started.

 

[L401CJF]

Ah yes the mighty Carlisle. I've recently sent a complaint into Merseyrail about their complete lack of presence on the Ellesmere Port line of a night over the last few months while antisocial behaviour has been high on the line.

 

[jamesst]

Ah yes the mighty Carlisle. I've recently sent a complaint into Merseyrail about their complete lack of presence on the Ellesmere Port line of a night over the last few months while antisocial behaviour has been high on the line.

This is excellent to see. Despite the pleas of the staff and passengers the problems between Hooton to Ellesmere Port don't seen to exist in the eyes of certain quarters...

 

[L401CJF]

This is excellent to see. Despite the pleas of the staff and passengers the problems between Hooton to Ellesmere Port don't seen to exist in the eyes of certain quarters...

I did receive a response saying they are aware of the issues and have had BTP regularly visiting the stations after dark but I've not personally noticed any improvement.

The Carlisle staff seem to be regulars as far as Hooton then I rarely see them south of there. They were doing ticket checks at Ellesmere Port late one night a few weeks ago though. They always seem to be around when it's quiet but when they're needed nowhere to be seen! The line can be quite unpleasant to travel on after dark.

 

[8J]

Meanwhile, I've seen some CSS staff doing a ticket check around the Wirral Line loop. Surprise surpsise - they didn't catch anyone!

 

[Clip]

I read through this thread and was about to post when I read your's
There appear to have been three people involved in this incident - two security staff and a drunken passenger. The vast majority of this thread has been about the two security staff and their company, with practically nothing about the passenger who was clearly causing such a nuisance that the staff were trying to evict hiom from railway premises. Drunks come in several forms - the happy type who grin inanely and say stupid things but are generally pretty harmless, those who are nasty and aggressive and who want to fight the world, and allothers in between. What about the law abiding people who pay their fares and expect to travel in safety, but are intimidated and frightened by the drunken person who is clearly causing concern ?

I actually feel for the Carlisle employees who have to deal with these people but i guess it takes a certain type of person to do the job.

If I have read the story correctly the person was already being escorted out of the premises when the Carlisle staff got involved.

And no matter how you try and dress it up about the victims behaviour it's worth pointing out that the Carlisle staff were arrested, prosecuted and received a sentence.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Security guards broke train passenger's leg twice

Pair used "unnecessary force" to eject the passenger from Liverpool Central Station

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Above is a link to an article in the Liverpool Echo outlining a case of the extremely heavy handed approach of some bylaw enforcement officers employed by Carlisle Support Services on Merseyrail trains and stations.

For those that can't access the link, below is the extracted text from the article:


This episode highlights yet another case of the aggressive approach employed by CSS bylaw enforcement staff on Merseyrail. Do they have a vetting process to ensure they aren't taking on unsuitable, potentially unstable people in these roles?

I think now is a time for Merseyrail to review their practices and relationship with Carlisle Support Services?

Merseyrail have recently extended the duties of Carlisle Support Services Bylaw Enforcement officers to cover revenue protection duties onboard too including issuing penalty fare notices. I dread to think how this will play out now.

Absolutely flabbergasting behaviour, I hope the people involved are okay.

 

[paddingtonGWR]

Absolutely flabbergasting behaviour, I hope the people involved are okay.

100%

Hi Viz with SIA badge and think there GOD!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read through this thread and was about to post when I read your's
There appear to have been three people involved in this incident - two security staff and a drunken passenger. The vast majority of this thread has been about the two security staff and their company, with practically nothing about the passenger who was clearly causing such a nuisance that the staff were trying to evict hiom from railway premises. Drunks come in several forms - the happy type who grin inanely and say stupid things but are generally pretty harmless, those who are nasty and aggressive and who want to fight the world, and allothers in between. What about the law abiding people who pay their fares and expect to travel in safety, but are intimidated and frightened by the drunken person who is clearly causing concern ?

Breaking peoples' legs is not necessary to remove them from the premises under any circumstances. The only situation in which that might even vaguely be appropriate would be if it was absolutely necessary to prevent a terrorist attack that could kill many.

Like usual, this will have been a case of thugs losing their rag and giving someone a (totally unnecessary) kicking.

I actually feel for the Carlisle employees who have to deal with these people but i guess it takes a certain type of person to do the job.

Unfortunately it seems most of them aren't that "certain type of person"

 

[PupCuff]

My preference in all of this would be a national rail security services along the lines of SecuRail in Belgium (as mentioned upthread). They're equipped with decent training, some police powers, and PPE (eg stab vests, handcuffs etc). They come across as a very professional bunch, and deal with a lot of the low level crime on the railways that really don't justify the cost of taking a police officer off the streets (eg fare evasion, antisocial behaviour etc).

Instead in the UK what we seem to do is just farm out security to whoever can do it cheapest (that includes things like nightclubs and supermarkets too) - the amount of times I've seen nightclub 'bouncers' for example in something that vaguely passes for a uniform sitting on violent people rather than properly restraining them is really concerning, and is exactly when these types of broken leg or asphyxiation incidents occur.

TOCs pay a substantial amount of money to the BTP to have them attend and deal with incidents so it's reasonable that they will only want to pay that for incidents which absolutely need police attendance. But at the same time, if the attendance of the private security will end up costing them more in claims, bad rep etc, is it worth it?

 

[O L Leigh]

Like usual, this will have been a case of thugs losing their rag and giving someone a (totally unnecessary) kicking.

I don't disagree with your general point but, unless you know for certain the circumstances under which this person suffered these injuries, your assertion quoted above can only be described as speculative.

 

[Darren Jones]

Security guards broke train passenger's leg twice

Pair used "unnecessary force" to eject the passenger from Liverpool Central Station

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Above is a link to an article in the Liverpool Echo outlining a case of the extremely heavy handed approach of some bylaw enforcement officers employed by Carlisle Support Services on Merseyrail trains and stations.

For those that can't access the link, below is the extracted text from the article:


This episode highlights yet another case of the aggressive approach employed by CSS bylaw enforcement staff on Merseyrail. Do they have a vetting process to ensure they aren't taking on unsuitable, potentially unstable people in these roles?

I think now is a time for Merseyrail to review their practices and relationship with Carlisle Support Services?

Merseyrail have recently extended the duties of Carlisle Support Services Bylaw Enforcement officers to cover revenue protection duties onboard too including issuing penalty fare notices. I dread to think how this will play out now.

This is disgusting behaviour from the officers, I hope the people involved are okay.

 

[Clip]

I don't disagree with your general point but, unless you know for certain the circumstances under which this person suffered these injuries, your assertion quoted above can only be described as speculative.

Even though it says in the story that they were far too heavy handed

pushing the man face-first into the wall, with his face hitting the corner of the wall.

The man turned around to face the pair who then pinned him to the ground with such force that the victim repeatedly cried out in pain and begged for them to let go.

Of which the police,CPS and the courts agreed with which is why they were arrested, sent to court and sentenced for the assault.

So whilst you may think his quote was 'speculative' no one else did and they got sentenced for giving some one a kicking. And thats not disputable nor speculative by anyone.