Merseyrail semi-fast running antics.

[Birkonian]

Merseyrail don't seem to run their network for the benefit of passengers.

As soon as trains become 5+ minutes late, semi-fast running kicks in to protect their difficult to maintain timetable.

My experience today takes the biscuit. The train to Chester didn't stop at Hooton despite being only 3 minutes late. Remember that there are only 2 trains per hour on Sundays. Pathetic.

 

[Haywain]

Merseyrail don't seem to run their network for the benefit of passengers.

That's one point of view but the counter argument is that taking steps to maintain on time running is very much for the benefit of the many, if not for the few who are directly affected by the missed stops. Having been a victim of such policies in the past I can see both sides of that coin.

 

[Birkonian]

I understand, but 3 minutes? Especially when the next train is not for another ½ hour.

 

[323235]

I could understand if a train was 15 minutes late missing out stops but 3 minutes seems a bit excessive.

 

[Tramfan]

Assuming this was the 13:42 from Hooton, it does appear that it started running fast after Birkenhead Central, where it was 14 mins late

 

[Phillipimo]

When services only have a 4 minute turnaround time after each 1.5 hour journey, then a 3 minute delay is significant. Of course it will inconvenience some people but without intervention it will delay many more people throughout the day, as well as delaying over services on the loop line in Liverpool.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Strangely, according to RTT that train did make one stop - at Port Sunlight.
In my experience Hooton is normally the last one omitted, because of the connections to/from Ellesmere Port.
But not today, apparently.
Delays started building up from Bebington on the way into Liverpool, reaching 14 down before the stops were pulled on the way out.

Realtime Trains | 2C26 1230 Chester to Chester | 16/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2C26 1230 departure from Chester to Chester on 16/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[jamesst]

The current Sunday Chester timetable allows literally no time for service recovery in the event of disruption.
Weekdays generally aren't as bad as the Capenhurst skip stopping can claw back a minute or two. Sundays however with an all stations minimal turnaround service means if a service runs even a few minutes later sooner or later service recovery will have to take place.

 

[Foxcover]

The leaf-fall timetable should be all year round …

 

[jamesst]

The leaf-fall timetable should be all year round …

And bring it in on Sundays aswell

 

[Starmill]

Merseyrail don't seem to run their network for the benefit of passengers. As soon as trains become 5+ minutes late, semi-fast running kicks in to protect their difficult to maintain timetable. My experience today takes the biscuit. The train to Chester didn't stop at Hooton despite being only 3 minutes late. Remember that there are only 2 trains per hour on Sundays. Pathetic.

Lengthening the turnaround times would result in less capacity. Presumably you'd be the first person to complain about that if they did this?

 

[Llandudno]

I thought that the 777s were quicker than the 507/508s and journey times would be speeded up?

 

[Bikeman78]

Lengthening the turnaround times would result in less capacity. Presumably you'd be the first person to complain about that if they did this?

The Chester line hasn't worked very well for years. The fact that it is still the case indicates that the class 777 have not delivered the hoped for journey time improvements. If they had, they would be able to make up time on the class 507 schedules without skipping stops.

 

[Starmill]

The Chester line hasn't worked very well for years. The fact that it is still the case indicates that the class 777 have not delivered the hoped for journey time improvements. If they had, they would be able to make up time on the class 507 schedules without skipping stops.

For a couple of minutes yes. But not for 14.

 

[gray1404]

The train was 3 minutes late PASSING Hooton. If it has to stop there it would have been more then 3 minutes late by the time we account for it showing down. It only got to Chester seconds before it's booked time. Any additional stops would have meant it would have been late. The stop skipping kicked in once the train was 14 minutes late and anyone on boards wanting Ellesmere port could have got off at Birkenhead Central

 

[Bikeman78]

For a couple of minutes yes. But not for 14.

I've seen little evidence of them making up much time. The Chester line needs a rethink. A solution on Sundays would be to interwork with Ellesmere Port as both routes are half hourly.

 

[Horizon22]

Strangely, according to RTT that train did make one stop - at Port Sunlight.
In my experience Hooton is normally the last one omitted, because of the connections to/from Ellesmere Port.
But not today, apparently.
Delays started building up from Bebington on the way into Liverpool, reaching 14 down before the stops were pulled on the way out.

Realtime Trains | 2C26 1230 Chester to Chester | 16/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2C26 1230 departure from Chester to Chester on 16/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

8 minutes at Rock Ferry would suggest some sort of passenger incident / train fault / infrastructure issue there.

 

[Bevan Price]

I've seen little evidence of them making up much time. The Chester line needs a rethink. A solution on Sundays would be to interwork with Ellesmere Port as both routes are half hourly.

They CAN make up time on the Southport line. Late last year I was on a train that left Liverpool Central 11 minutes late, did not miss any stations, and regained over 7 minutes of lateness by Southport. (Public timetable - one minute less according to WTT.)

 

[bramling]

That's one point of view but the counter argument is that taking steps to maintain on time running is very much for the benefit of the many, if not for the few who are directly affected by the missed stops. Having been a victim of such policies in the past I can see both sides of that coin.

If you have a situation where interventions are having to be made when a service is only running a few minutes late, then the timetable and/or train/crew diagrams just aren’t robust enough.

Are Merseyrail trying to run their service with insufficient resources, or do changes need to be made to the infrastructure?

 

[Horizon22]

If you have a situation where interventions are having to be made when a service is only running a few minutes late, then the timetable and/or train/crew diagrams just aren’t robust enough.

Are Merseyrail trying to run their service with insufficient resources, or do changes need to be made to the infrastructure?

If you look at the Chester turnarounds, they are miniscule. They're probably trying to get away with running fewer units (and drivers) on a Sunday.

 

[gray1404]

They do factor in recovery time into the timetable. For example I often get on the train at Bache that can be say four minutes late, yet by Birkenhead Central it is on time. I find when the train leaves Bache or Chester on time it can be waiting 3 or 4 minutes at Birkenhead Central.

 

[bramling]

If you look at the Chester turnarounds, they are miniscule. They're probably trying to get away with running fewer units (and drivers) on a Sunday.

So there’s a very simple solution which is to insert an extra diagram (albeit likely at a cost of having to pad out the journey time slightly). But as you say, requires an extra train formation, and more drivers. I’m not sure it’s really responsible to run a service which seems to have zero opportunity to recover from anything.

I guess terminating at James Street platform is more passenger friendly than skipping stops, but this is only going to make up a few minutes if that.

 

[Krokodil]

If you have a situation where interventions are having to be made when a service is only running a few minutes late, then the timetable and/or train/crew diagrams just aren’t robust enough.

But it wasn't "only a few minutes late", it was 14 minutes late.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ultimately, the planned extra electrified platform at Chester will solve the turnround problem there.

 

[amahy]

Surely with this train, it makes sense to go non stop from Liverpool to Hooton, then all stops to Chester, as passengers for stations between Liverpool and Hooton can get the Ellesmere Port train, whereas passengers for Capenhurst, Bache, and Chester have no alternative other than waiting the half hour.

 

[yorkie]

Surely with this train, it makes sense to go non stop from Liverpool to Hooton, then all stops to Chester, as passengers for stations between Liverpool and Hooton can get the Ellesmere Port train, whereas passengers for Capenhurst, Bache, and Chester have no alternative other than waiting the half hour.

Agreed.

 

[D365]

It surely doesn’t help that the total number of Class 777 units is less than the total number of Class 507/508 units was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail never used to do this before about 2000 - they'd just take the late unit out, cancel a round trip and put it back in on time. I don't think I ever experienced a semifast run when I was using the network regularly before moving down South in 2001, though there were enough cancellations and the very occasional (one that I remember) turning short. Was this better I wonder? The upside of semifast running is that those making the busiest journeys still can.

 

[Cross City]

When services only have a 4 minute turnaround time after each 1.5 hour journey, then a 3 minute delay is significant. Of course it will inconvenience some people but without intervention it will delay many more people throughout the day, as well as delaying over services on the loop line in Liverpool.

May as well just not stop anywhere, they'll never be late then!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In PEP days there was always a standby unit parked up between the peaks in the siding at Birkenhead Central, ready to step in.
I don't know if that is still the case with 777s.
That never applied at weekends, through.