Merseyrail should be taken off the National Rail system

[thedbdiboy]

Moderator note: split from

Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

Watched a passenger being fined for having a valid e ticket but not printed out on a GN service to Stevenage from Moorgate last weekend. A long discussion centred around avoiding fraud. That is especially poor given they themselves advertise e-tickets as an option that can be "downloaded into...

www.railforums.co.uk

The underlying issue here is that Merseyrail is an operationally isolated metro system that through accident of history ended up as a franchised TOC during privatisation. Its nearest direct comparator is the Tyne & Wear Metro which (despite being exactly the same model of ex-heavy rail lines converted to metro use by means of a newly created city centre underground loop) manages to exist outside the National Rail banner.

The Waterloo & City managed to get transferred to TfL as part of the privatisation process but presumably Liverpool and the Isle of Wight were too far from London for anyone in control to challenge or query why they were subject to becoming franchises.

Given that the contract is now fully devolved it's really time to deal with this anomaly and treat through ticketing to and from the Merseyrail network in the same way as any other through ticketing off the National Rail system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The underlying issue here is that Merseyrail is an operationally isolated metro system that through accident of history ended up as a franchised TOC during privatisation. Its nearest direct comparator is the Tyne & Wear Metro which (despite being exactly the same model of ex-heavy rail lines converted to metro use by means of a newly created city centre underground loop) manages to exist outside the National Rail banner. The Waterloo & City managed to get transferred to TfL as part of the privatisation process but presumably Liverpool and the Isle of Wight were too far from London for anyone in control to challenge or query why they were subject to becoming franchises.
Given that the contract is now fully devolved it's really time to deal with this anomaly and treat through ticketing to and from the Merseyrail network in the same way as any ther through ticketing off the National Rail system.

It's a bit more complex than that in that Merseyrail has far better connectivity at the outer ends than most such other systems, even London Underground. It's a bit more like Glasgow.

(It's of note that DB has through ticketing onto the S-Bahnen it operates!)

 

[Djgr]

It's a bit more complex than that in that Merseyrail has far better connectivity at the outer ends than most such other systems, even London Underground. It's a bit more like Glasgow.

(It's of note that DB has through ticketing onto the S-Bahnen it operates!)

It is also a concession rather than a franchise. At the point of privatisation it was a (pretty disastrous) franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is also a concession rather than a franchise. At the point of privatisation it was a (pretty disastrous) franchise.

It's long been pretty disastrous in some form or other, though the bits that don't work have changed over time. It was OK in BR days (certainly a lot friendlier than it is now), though that did have its scandals and the Echo was still all over them every week or so!

I do think the MTL and Arriva days were its nadir, though.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It's a bit more complex than that in that Merseyrail has far better connectivity at the outer ends than most such other systems, even London Underground. It's a bit more like Glasgow.

(It's of note that DB has through ticketing onto the S-Bahnen it operates!)

I agree that it is a marginal case - but I have formed the view that in terms of that margin, it probably ought to sit on the transport authority metro side of the fence. At the time of privatisation the concept of National Rail did not exist - indeed the over-riding Government ethic was to shatter any notion of a national corporate identity; but had there been any time to think it through I think both Mersey and IoW would have fallen outside the national, heavy rail definition.

Paradoxically, having it as a metro network doesn't of course preclude it having through ticketing; but there would be a much more sustainable 'border' to ensure that the ticketing requirements etc were set up appropriately.

 

[DanNCL]

I agree with the OP. If Merseyrail don’t want to follow NRCOT then they should be removed from the National Rail system and operate as an isolated metro system for fares.

Possibly worth noting that despite not being part of the National Rail system, the Tyne & Wear Metro actually has more mileage shared with National Rail trains than Merseyrail does. If that isn’t enough for the Tyne & Wear Metro to be considered National Rail then it shouldn’t be enough for Merseyrail either. Network Rail owning the tracks isn’t on its own a valid reason to be part of the National Network for ticketing.

 

[mangyiscute]

Imo merseyrail should just be forced to accept e tickets - I don't understand why they are making such a fuss when it would make everyone's lives easier. This issue with splitting it up is the number of journeys that involve other national rail and merseyrail, such as travellers travelling through Ormskirk/Headbolt Lane, or passengers from North Wales (or pretty much the whole of Wales) to Liverpool who I expect often change onto Merseyrail at Chester, or the Borderlands line as well (very few people will not be travelling past Bidston). If you kept very easy to access clear through ticketing, this would be fine, but I am sceptical that this would be the case considering how awful merseyrail are at giving tickets to the rest of the national rail network currently when they are legally obliged to.
The majority of merseyrail lines end at an interchange for other national rail services, that is unique across any similar system and that's why it must be kept as part of national rail. Arguably systems like c2c, southeastern, greater anglia are more self contained and no one is asking for them to be changed, purely because they aren't throwing a stroppy fit about being in the 21st century and actually using technology for tickets.

The final thing I will add is that if the Tyne&Wear metro was part of national rail, I would be far more likely to use it as someone not from that area, since I would immediately understand how the ticketing system works. As it is, I have no idea what ticket I'd need to buy for any journey I'd want to make, and that is very offputting.

 

[stevieinselby]

It's a bit more complex than that in that Merseyrail has far better connectivity at the outer ends than most such other systems, even London Underground. It's a bit more like Glasgow.

Merseyrail's operations are nothing like Glasgow.
Suburban services in Glasgow share tracks and stations with regional trains ... and in fact some are regional trains, local trains from Helensburgh C run right through to Edinburgh!
Although Merseyrail has better connectivity with other NR services than Tyne & Wear Metro, in terms of the way it runs on self-contained tracks it is basically the same model of operation. The only remotely comparable NR network is Valley Lines (not counting IOW or branch lines as trivial).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm afraid the OP is simply advocating parochialism as a way of managing public transport: it's a terrible idea. Unfortunately there does exist on Merseyside a vociferous minority who think no good can come from local people travelling outside the area and also that visitors are not really welcome. And this is the attitude that pervades Merseyrail's thinking about fares and ticketing. While it can make plenty of sense for local rail services, especially those which are operationally more or less free-standing, to be contracted through some form of local government and oversight, as far as day-to-day management goes it would be much better for that to be integrated with the wider rail network.

And before anyone thinks this is an "anti-Scouse" idea I think the same principles should also apply to the likes of Metrolink, Supertram et al. In an age where IT and the online world are so deeply ingrained into our everyday lives it is nonsense to be arguing for the continued existence of transport islands with independent fares and ticketing regimes along with a refusal to market the benefits of the wider network. Anyone who genuinely believes in net-zero will surely conclude that fully integrated multi-modal public transport is the way forward.

 

[cactustwirly]

It's a bit more complex than that in that Merseyrail has far better connectivity at the outer ends than most such other systems, even London Underground. It's a bit more like Glasgow.

(It's of note that DB has through ticketing onto the S-Bahnen it operates!)

That's because it's contracted by the Vehrkehrsbund and uses their fares which are multimodal

 

[zwk500]

The underlying issue here is that Merseyrail is an operationally isolated metro system that through accident of history ended up as a franchised TOC during privatisation. Its nearest direct comparator is the Tyne & Wear Metro which (despite being exactly the same model of ex-heavy rail lines converted to metro use by means of a newly created city centre underground loop) manages to exist outside the National Rail banner.

I think Merseyrail is still a heavy rail metro like London Underground rather than a Light Rail Metro like Tyne and Wear, which does make a difference.

The Waterloo & City managed to get transferred to TfL as part of the privatisation process but presumably Liverpool and the Isle of Wight were too far from London for anyone in control to challenge or query why they were subject to becoming franchises.

My understanding is that Liverpool and the successive infrastructure owners have talked several times about transferring Merseyrail over, but then the subject of the bill for maintaining the Mersey Tunnel comes up and suddenly the city council aren't half as keen.

Conceptually there are a lot of good arguments for splitting Merseyrail off and it being it's own metro, interacting with the national network on that basis (as T&W Metro and LU do).

 

[185]

I do think the MTL and Arriva days were its nadir, though.

Disagree... this is far, far worse.

I ask myself, in 1999-2002, would the performance and shenanigans taking place today have lead to the PTE removing their franchise - Yes.

Is this much worse level of service considered more acceptable nowadays with a gutless PTE, too frightened to sack the contractor? Yes.

I again suggest ORL / Northern should temporarily absorb the concession until a competent adult can be found to run it.

 

[Djgr]

I agree with the OP. If Merseyrail don’t want to follow NRCOT then they should be removed from the National Rail system and operate as an isolated metro system for fares.

Possibly worth noting that despite not being part of the National Rail system, the Tyne & Wear Metro actually has more mileage shared with National Rail trains than Merseyrail does. If that isn’t enough for the Tyne & Wear Metro to be considered National Rail then it shouldn’t be enough for Merseyrail either. Network Rail owning the tracks isn’t on its own a valid reason to be part of the National Network for

Disagree... this is far, far worse.

I ask myself, in 1999-2002, would the performance and shenanigans taking place today have lead to the PTE removing their franchise - Yes.

Is this much worse level of service considered more acceptable nowadays with a gutless PTE, too frightened to sack the contractor? Yes.

I again suggest ORL / Northern should temporarily absorb the concession until a competent adult can be found to run it.

Have you actually looked at the latest punctuality/cancellation figures?

Yes, way down on previous years but still way, way better than the likes of Northern.

 

[185]

Have you actually looked at the latest punctuality/cancellation figures?

This is not just about the fall in performance, trains running non-stop and shambolic chaos when the job stops, this is also about fiascoes which keep making the press, like their little e-ticket scam, booking offices not staffed, Carlisle plc thugs checking tickets & picking only on easy targets. - No issue with moving it under the control of Northern for a fixed period whilst their management are restructured or replaced as necessary. It could be a testbed to see if it is financially better off under a bigger franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's because it's contracted by the Vehrkehrsbund and uses their fares which are multimodal

It does for internal journeys. You can however buy a normal through DB rail only ticket to any S Bahn station. Not commonly done but it exists.

This is kind of comparable to Merseyrail having their day tickets and the likes, but through singles and returns being available.

This is not just about the fall in performance, trains running non-stop and shambolic chaos when the job stops, this is also about fiascoes which keep making the press, like their little e-ticket scam, booking offices not staffed, Carlisle plc thugs checking tickets & picking only on easy targets. - No issue with moving it under the control of Northern for a fixed period whilst their management are restructured or replaced as necessary. It could be a testbed to see if it is financially better off under a bigger franchise.

Northern is hardly any better. In many ways it's worse.

 

[Clansman]

Is it not just an illusion that Merseyrail is or should be light rail when they're run to the same 'heavy' rail standards and gauge as anywhere else?

As in, just because it has an underground component and runs frequent stops, why should that make it any less of a heavy rail than light-rail?

I don't understand the perception that just because it has a metro-style marketing and has a contained suburban network, that it should be a light-rail or metro by default in all cases such that it merrits being treated as such at all levels including in ticketing.

What benefit would taking it off the National Rail network bring when ticket integration is becoming more in vogue. Surely it should go in the other direction?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One could argue that a more sensible approach would be to have outboundary multimodal Travelcards for places like Merseyside and GM, and zonal through tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

The idea is a bad one. Splitting Merseyrail off completely would leave too big a hole in the network. If anything, ticketing etc needs to be brought more in line with the rest of the railway in terms of formats allowed etc.

 

[stuu]

Not at all convinced why this would be a good idea. We should be aiming for more integration of ticketing, not less.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This is not just about the fall in performance, trains running non-stop and shambolic chaos when the job stops, this is also about fiascoes which keep making the press, like their little e-ticket scam, booking offices not staffed, Carlisle plc thugs checking tickets & picking only on easy targets. -

Northern also employ Carlisle plc thugs to pick on people and they often close their booking offices, plus the utter chaos when there is an infrastructure failure.
Transferring it will solve nothing.
If you want to solve some of these issues, you need a national change in regulations e.g. outright ban on agency workers, a performance requirement on franchises to open booking offices and fine for non compliance, universally mandated acceptance of e tickets..

 

[Djgr]

Northern also employ Carlisle plc thugs to pick on people and they often close their booking offices, plus the utter chaos when there is an infrastructure failure.
Transferring it will solve nothing.
If you want to solve some of these issues, you need a national change in regulations e.g. outright ban on agency workers, a performance requirement on franchises to open booking offices and fine for non compliance, universally mandated acceptance of e tickets..

Merseyrail is a concession and not a franchise.

 

[185]

Merseyrail is a concession and not a franchise.

Which means the buck stops with the useless, gutless elephant in the room Merseytravel, our PTE.

Union hat off, business head on, no issues with the use of contractors, unless they are substantially worse... which Carlisle plc really are. You only need to look at how Manchester's rent-a-thug revenue & security contractor (who sat on and killed a passenger) to realise that paying a little extra gets you ten times better staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which means the buck stops with the useless, gutless elephant in the room Merseytravel, our PTE.

Union hat off, business head on, no issues with the useless of contractors, unless they are substantially worse... which Carlisle plc really are. You only need to look at how Manchester's rent-a-thug revenue & security contractor (who sat on and killed a passenger) to realise that paying a little extra gets you ten times better staff.

The reason businesses use contractors for positive reasons are twofold (both of which apply to my job):

1. To bring in skillsets that aren't present internally and don't justify training someone up as their requirement may be time bound or difficult to get.
2. So the workforce can be flexed without the complexity of redundancies etc, e.g. as projects start and finish.

The negative reason is:

3. To save money by them being on poorer conditions or pay than your negotiated internal structures

No prize for guessing why the railway does it (clue, it's not 1 or 2) and thus why it results in atrocious customer service.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Is it not just an illusion that Merseyrail is or should be light rail when they're run to the same 'heavy' rail standards and gauge as anywhere else?

As in, just because it has an underground component and runs frequent stops, why should that make it any less of a heavy rail than light-rail?

I don't understand the perception that just because it has a metro-style marketing and has a contained suburban network, that it should be a light-rail or metro by default in all cases such that it merrits being treated as such at all levels including in ticketing.

What benefit would taking it off the National Rail network bring when ticket integration is becoming more in vogue. Surely it should go in the other direction?

It's not about whether its 'heavy' or 'light' rail, it is more that a whole range of customer standards designed for main line rail use are not necessarily appropriate for a self-contained urban network.

The idea is a bad one. Splitting Merseyrail off completely would leave too big a hole in the network. If anything, ticketing etc needs to be brought more in line with the rest of the railway in terms of formats allowed etc.

It wouldn't leave a hole in the network because the lines and services would still be there and could still have through ticketing etc. However, its management structures is entirely devolved so there is no way to enforce agreed National Rail standards beyond the legacy British Rail ones - the suggestion is there to reflect reality and allow the concept of 'National Rail' to have some consistent meaning.

 

[Trainbike46]

Moderator note: split from

Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

Watched a passenger being fined for having a valid e ticket but not printed out on a GN service to Stevenage from Moorgate last weekend. A long discussion centred around avoiding fraud. That is especially poor given they themselves advertise e-tickets as an option that can be "downloaded into...

www.railforums.co.uk

The underlying issue here is that Merseyrail is an operationally isolated metro system that through accident of history ended up as a franchised TOC during privatisation. Its nearest direct comparator is the Tyne & Wear Metro which (despite being exactly the same model of ex-heavy rail lines converted to metro use by means of a newly created city centre underground loop) manages to exist outside the National Rail banner.

The Waterloo & City managed to get transferred to TfL as part of the privatisation process but presumably Liverpool and the Isle of Wight were too far from London for anyone in control to challenge or query why they were subject to becoming franchises.

Given that the contract is now fully devolved it's really time to deal with this anomaly and treat through ticketing to and from the Merseyrail network in the same way as any other through ticketing off the National Rail system.

Changing the structure can be a good idea for specific circumstances, but it is important to think in advance of what the advantages and disadvatages would be.

For Merseyrail leaving national rail

Advantages: None

Disadvantages:
- likely disappearance of through singles&returns
- Likely to make ticket integration worse, not better
- Possible reduction of passenger rights as can't be held to NRCOT anymore - they can already offer extra/better rights if they want to, so this can only get worse


Therefore, to me it seems pretty obvious that removing merseyrail from National Rail is a bad idea

 

[AlastairFraser]

Merseyrail is a concession and not a franchise.

Let me rephrase that to all NR operators.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Changing the structure can be a good idea for specific circumstances, but it is important to think in advance of what the advantages and disadvatages would be.

For Merseyrail leaving national rail

Advantages: None

Disadvantages:
- likely disappearance of through singles&returns
- Likely to make ticket integration worse, not better
- Possible reduction of passenger rights as can't be held to NRCOT anymore - they can already offer extra/better rights if they want to, so this can only get worse


Therefore, to me it seems pretty obvious that removing merseyrail from National Rail is a bad idea

The advantages would chime with the political commitment to devolution. The funding is devolved to the region, managed by an elected body responsible to local people. Things like through ticketing absolutely can be retained but too often the debate on this is all about some unaccountable 'other' that must simply provide what is wanted with no debate about trade-offs and costs.

This debate spun off from the issue of Merseyrail not accepting e-Tickets because they do not have the means to adequately monitor their use. As a devolved operation they are choosing not to fund this - do 'we' have the right to force them?

All I have suggested is that tying Merseyrail into National Rail ties them into a lot of arrangements that make sense for the rail network as a whole but don't necessarily all make sense for Merseyrail locally when (for example) Tyne & Wear metro or London Underground are not tied to the same requirements.

 

[Djgr]

The advantages would chime with the political commitment to devolution. The funding is devolved to the region, managed by an elected body responsible to local people. Things like through ticketing absolutely can be retained but too often the debate on this is all about some unaccountable 'other' that must simply provide what is wanted with no debate about trade-offs and costs.

This debate spun off from the issue of Merseyrail not accepting e-Tickets because they do not have the means to adequately monitor their use. As a devolved operation they are choosing not to fund this - do 'we' have the right to force them?

All I have suggested is that tying Merseyrail into National Rail ties them into a lot of arrangements that make sense for the rail network as a whole but don't necessarily all make sense for Merseyrail locally when (for example) Tyne & Wear metro or London Underground are not tied to the same requirements.

It's certainly interesting that nobody seems to bat an eyelid about not being able to buy a through ticket to South Shields.

 

[Trainbike46]

The advantages would chime with the political commitment to devolution. The funding is devolved to the region, managed by an elected body responsible to local people. Things like through ticketing absolutely can be retained but too often the debate on this is all about some unaccountable 'other' that must simply provide what is wanted with no debate about trade-offs and costs.

This debate spun off from the issue of Merseyrail not accepting e-Tickets because they do not have the means to adequately monitor their use. As a devolved operation they are choosing not to fund this - do 'we' have the right to force them?

All I have suggested is that tying Merseyrail into National Rail ties them into a lot of arrangements that make sense for the rail network as a whole but don't necessarily all make sense for Merseyrail locally when (for example) Tyne & Wear metro or London Underground are not tied to the same requirements.

Merseyrail is already primarily controlled by Merseytravel, and under local control.

Regarding eTickets, generally speaking eTickets aren't enabled for merseyrail flows, and this recent controversy appears to be based around a lot unclear communication, especially surrounding people attempting to travel on a booking references, which isn't allowed anywhere

It's certainly interesting that nobody seems to bat an eyelid about not being able to buy a through ticket to South Shields.

That's because people are used to it not being possible; Personally, I think it would be an improvement if it was possible to buy through tickets to/from any Tyne and Wear Metro station.

We should be aiming to make public transport more integrated, not less.

 

[Djgr]

I mean, fundamentally it's all about an organisation based in a city where the Tories achieved 1.7% of the vote in the last local elections (and no the decimal point is not in the wrong place) and wanting to have absolutely nothing to do with Westminster.

The government and its hangers-on are regarded, at best, as incompetent and dysfunctional but most people in the city would consider that I am being extremely generous here.