Methods of door operation and despatch and staffing onboard trains.

[stadler]

In recent years we have seen such a huge variety of new door methods and despatch methods used. We have the traditional Guard Open Guard Close and then the Driver Open Guard Close and the Ten Bell methods too. But then you have all these new methods like what GA on their 720/745/755 and MR on their 777 and SE on their 395 and SWR on their 701 use. And now another method on the TFW 398/756 too. Then you have some trains like SN on their 377/387 with their OBS who are not safety critical or guaranteed but are booked to be on every train. So we have seen such a huge variety of methods recently compared to say fifteen or twenty years ago.

Currently we have at least eleven different methods of operation as detailed below:

----

• Method A - Guard Open Guard Close

This is where the guard has full control of opening and closing the doors. The guard opens their local door and steps out to check the train is fully platformed then releases the other doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the guard closes all doors except theirs and then closes their local door. The guard then gives two on the bell which the driver repeats and the train departs.

Used On:
CH MK3
CS MK5
EMR 158 170 222 360
GWR 150 158 MK3
IL 484
LNER MK4
LNWR 150 350 730
NO 150 155 156 158 170 195 319 323 331 333 769
SN 171
SR 153 156 158 170 MK3
SWR 158 159 442 444 450 455 456 458 707
TFW 150 153 158 170 175 197 230 231 769 MK4
TPE 185
XC 170
WMR 170 172 196 323 350 730

----

• Method B - Driver Open Guard Close

This is where the Driver releases the doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the guard closes all doors except theirs and then closes their local door. The guard then gives two on the bell which the driver repeats and the train departs.

Used On:
AWC 390
ES 373 374
GC 180
GWR 165 166 387 800 802
HT 802
LNER 800 801
NIR 3000 4000
SE 375 465 466 (outside London Metro area)
SE 377 (saloon only) (outside London Metro area)
SN 377 (saloon only) (Clapham to Watford and Redhill to Tonbridge)
SR 380 385
TPE 397 802 MK5A

----

• Method C - Ten Bell Despatch

This is where the driver releases the doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the guard gives 1-2 which the driver repeats. The driver then preses the door close button. Once all the other doors are closed the guard closes his local door. The guard then gives two on the bell which the driver repeats and the train departs.

Used On:
AWC 221
CH 165 168 172 (North of Banbury)
GC 221
IR DD
NIR DD
SE 377 (cab only) (outside London Metro area)
SN 377 (cab only) (Clapham to Watford and Redhill to Tonbridge)
XC 220 221

----

• Method D - Six Bell Despatch

The driver releases the doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the guard gives 1-2 which the driver repeats. The driver the presses the door close button and closes all of the doors including the guards local door. The driver checks the cameras and the train then departs.

Used On:
TFW 398 756

----

• Method E - Key Fob Despatch

The driver releases the doors. Then when the train is ready to depart the guard touches a key fob on the reader by the door which notifies the driver that the train can depart. The driver the presses the door close button and closes all of the doors including the guards local door. The driver checks the cameras and the train then departs.

Used On:
MR 777

----

Method F - Flag Despatch

The passengers open or close doors (on slam door trains) or the driver opens and closes doors (on power door trains) but despatch is done by showing a flag to the driver. When the train is ready to depart the guard displays a flag (which the driver sees by leaning out of the cab) to let the driver know that they can depart.

Used On:
GWR MK3 (Night Riviera only)
IR 22000 29000 (Enterprise only)

----

• Method G - Driver Door Operation With Guaranteed Guard And A Degraded Despatch Option

The driver opens and closes the doors and despatches themselves with the guard having no involvement in door operation or despatch. However there is still a guaranteed safety critical guard onboard all trains. There is also an degraded despatch option for the guard to operate the doors and despatch should the cameras be broken.

Used On:
GA 720 (on Manningtree to Harwich and Colchester to Walton and Colchester to Clacton only)
GA 745 (Ipswich to Norwich)
GA 755 (all services North of Cambridge and North of Ipswich and the Harwich and Sudbury branches)
SWR 701

----

• Method H - Driver Door Operation With Guaranteed Guard But No Degraded Despatch Option

The driver opens and closes the doors and despatches themselves with the guard having no involvement in door operation or despatch. However there is still a guaranteed safety critical guard onboard all trains. But there is no option for degraded despatch so the guard can not operate doors or despatch if the cameras are broken.

Used On:
SE 395

----

• Method I - DOO With A Diagrammed But Not Guaranteed Safety Critical Second Person

The driver opens and closes the doors and despatches themselves. However there is a safety critical Guard who is diagrammed to be onboard all trains. There is also an degraded despatch option for the guard to operate the doors and despatch should the cameras be broken. However the Guard is not guaranteed so the train can run without them if necessary.

Used On:
GA 720 (Wickford to Southminster only)
GA 745 (London to Ipswich only)
GA 755 (London to Ipswich and Stansted to Cambridge only)
SE 375 377 465 466 (on Mainline services within the London Metro area)

----

• Method J - DOO With A Diagrammed But Not Guaranteed And Not Safety Critical Second Person

The driver opens and closes the doors and despatches themselves. However there is a second person who is diagrammed to be onboard all trains. This person is not safety critical and is not guaranteed so the train can run without them if necessary.

Used On:
GX 387
HX 387
LM 803
SN 377 387 (Coastway and Mainline services)
SR 318 320 334
SR 380 385 (Glasgow suburban and Ayrshire services)

----

• Method K - Full DOO Operation

The driver opens and closes the doors and despatches themselves and is the sole member of staff onboard.

Used On:
C2C 357 387 720
CH 165 168 172 (South of Banbury)
EL 345
GA 720 (except for Manningtree to Harwich and Colchester to Walton and Colchester to Clacton and Wickford to Southminster services)
GA 745 (only Stansted Express services)
GN 387 717
GWR 165 166 (the Thames Valley area except on the RDG to BSK/GTW/RDH services)
GWR 387 (except Didcot to Cardiff services)
LO 378 710
LU All Stock (all tube services)
SE 376 707
SE 465 466 (Metro services)
SN 377 387 (Metro services)
TL 700

----

My question is if there is a best method? I am curious as to what others think is the most suitable method to use?

The traditional method of Guard Open Guard Close is arguably the safest. As this means the Guard their local door first and steps out to check before opening other doors. So this means the risk of doors being opened off platform if the Driver stops at the wrong position is very little. On trains where the Driver opens the doors there is a much greater risk especially at TOCs where train length varies a lot.

The method used on GA where there is a guaranteed safety critical Guard who has no involvement in doors does have the benefit of giving the Guard more time to check and sell tickets on busy trains. As this means that the Guard does not have to get back to the doors at each stop so can spend far more time on tickets. But of course this only works if the Guard actually bothers. As we have seen on Southern with their OBS many never bother to check tickets.

So this is not really a question of DOO vs non DOO but more a question of what method of operation should be used on trains with staff onboard. I would be interested in hearing others thoughts.

Also could we eventually move to standard system of operation on all trains? With so many different trains and different TOCs using different methods is it likely that the railway will move to one common system in the future especially once the older trains are gone and if the network is nationalised?

 

[hwl]

The traditional method of Guard Open Guard Close is arguably the safest. As this means the Guard their local door first and steps out to check before opening other doors.

Data suggests otherwise: TfL in early London Overground days found that DOO was safer than having a guard. PTI incidents reduced when swapping to DOO on LO services.

So this means the risk of doors being opened off platform if the Driver stops at the wrong position is very little.

ASDO addresses this issue with a smaller time penalty

On trains where the Driver opens the doors there is a much greater risk especially at TOCs where train length varies a lot.

Not if the train has ASDO...

 

[ComUtoR]

Data suggests otherwise:

Excellent. If you have the data, I'd love to see it.

Not if the train has ASDO...

ASSDO doesn't always prevent doors opening off the platform. It would very much depend on which system is in use.

 

[Horizon22]

Excellent. If you have the data, I'd love to see it.

I think much of the raw/source data is not in the public domain or has since been archived, but there's references to it. Mostly it suggests that the risk factors are so low regardless.

Driver-only trains safe as trains with driver and guard - University of Huddersfield

Page Description

www.hud.ac.uk

George Bearfield is Director of System Safety and Health at RSSB. A graduate of the University of Huddersfield, he is a Visiting Professor of Rail Safety at its Institute of Railway Research.

After analysing data from UK and European rail networks, he has written an online article that includes a statistical finding that the numbers of fatal and major incidents involving passengers boarding or alighting trains are highest for trains with both driver and guard when entering or leaving unstaffed platforms, where driver-only trains have proved to be slightly safer.

From staffed platforms, driver-only trains are shown to have been significantly safer than those with doors operated by a guard.

Driver-only trains: does removing guards put passengers at risk? - Future Rail | Issue 74 | June 2019

The debate over driver-only operation rumbles on in the UK, with its proponents noting it has been used for decades and is proven safe. But without a guard on the train, are there risks for passengers that haven’t been considered? Chris Lo investigates. Disabled access and platform safety still...

rail.nridigital.com

On platform safety, there is evidence that DOO has no negative impact. The Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB), a safety watchdog owned by rail industry stakeholders, has conducted research into the risks presented by driver door operation during train dispatch. It found that between 2010 and 2015, there were more platform safety incidents on conductor-operated trains (1.35 fatalities and weighted injuries (FWI) per billion passenger journeys) than DCO services (0.87 FWI per billion passenger journeys).

So it does exist.

 

[357]

I've worked full DOO, driver open guard close, and ten bells.

Driver open guard close is my preference.

 

[Teddyward]

• Method G - Driver Door Operation With Guaranteed Guard And A Degraded Despatch Option

The driver opens and closes the doors and despatches themselves with the guard having no involvement in door operation or despatch. However there is still a guaranteed safety critical guard onboard all trains. There is also an degraded despatch option for the guard to operate the doors and despatch should the cameras be broken.

Used On:
GA 720 (on Manningtree to Harwich and Colchester to Walton and Colchester to Clacton and Wickford to Southminster only)

Conductor is not a mandatory requirement for Wickford to Southminster.

 

[507 001]

The method used on the 777s is absolutely bonkers, it’s one of the many irritating things about them.

I’m not sure what Merseyrail has mandated, but the Drivers seem to be super slow to release the doors. Theres literally no benefit to having the guard in control, quite mad.

 

[dk1]

But then you have all these new methods like what GA on their 720/745/777

Did you mean 720/745/755?

 

[TEW]

ASDO addresses this issue with a smaller time penalty

Not if the train has ASDO...

Quite a few ASDO systems work on the basis of opening the correct number of doors assuming the train has stopped and the correct mark, and provide no safeguard against the train not stopping at the correct mark.

 

[MCR247]

In recent years we have seen such a huge variety of new door methods and despatch methods used. We have the traditional Guard Open Guard Close and then the Driver Open Guard Close and the Ten Bell methods too. But then you have all these new methods like what GA on their 720/745/777 and MR on their 777 and SE on their 395 and SWR on their 701 use. And now another method on the TFW 398/756 too. Then you have some trains like SN on their 377/387 with their OBS who are not safety critical or guaranteed but are booked to be on every train. So we have seen such a huge variety of methods recently compared to say fifteen or twenty years ago.

Currently we have at least eleven different methods of operation as detailed below:



My question is if there is a best method? I am curious as to what others think is the most suitable method to use?

The traditional method of Guard Open Guard Close is arguably the safest. As this means the Guard their local door first and steps out to check before opening other doors. So this means the risk of doors being opened off platform if the Driver stops at the wrong position is very little. On trains where the Driver opens the doors there is a much greater risk especially at TOCs where train length varies a lot.

The method used on GA where there is a guaranteed safety critical Guard who has no involvement in doors does have the benefit of giving the Guard more time to check and sell tickets on busy trains. As this means that the Guard does not have to get back to the doors at each stop so can spend far more time on tickets. But of course this only works if the Guard actually bothers. As we have seen on Southern with their OBS many never bother to check tickets.

So this is not really a question of DOO vs non DOO but more a question of what method of operation should be used on trains with staff onboard. I would be interested in hearing others thoughts.

Also could we eventually move to standard system of operation on all trains? With so many different trains and different TOCs using different methods is it likely that the railway will move to one common system in the future especially once the older trains are gone and if the network is nationalised?

I could be wrong, but I’d thought drivers opened the doors on EMR 222s. Or they at least have some involvement in releasing the doors as the ‘SDO’ signs on the platforms line up with the front cab

 

[pompeyfan]

slight correction too that I believe (happy to be proven wrong) that Southern 171s is driver release guard close.

I think as thing move forward there will be a push for “Driver controlled operation” where there is a SC guard on every train that can do the doors if required, but normally the driver will have full control of the doors. I can’t see a push for future expansion of pure DOO, and I’m not convinced on the OBS position (however GTR / DfT have proven a lot of people wrong, many assumed that the grade would be binned off ASAP. 8 years later and they’re still actively recruiting the role).

I personally believe that driver release, guard close is better, however only if the ASDO system can detect and prevent a station stop short, however as mentioned above, many ASDO systems just release x number of coaches regardless of where the train stops.

Final point from me, the reduction in PTI incidents after LO moved to DOO. Surely that’s because there are no more ready to start against the red? I would very much imagine there’s been an increase in other incidents such as trap and drags, and other station irregularities. It would be interesting to know more granular details as to what has increased / decreased as a result of moving to full DOO.

 

[357]

Surely that’s because there are no more ready to start against the red?

That is not a PTI incident.

 

[Mojo]

Other dispatch methods not mentioned include the use of CD / RA indicators and also bat and flag/lamp as an alternative.

a. CD / RA indicator with driver responsible for closing the doors
(could possibly include a sub option here where the CD indicator is used alongside a signal from platform staff to tell the guard to close doors - I have seen this at Marylebone for the locohauled sets a few years ago so not sure if this practice is still used here or indeed anywhere else)

b. Hand signal with bat or white lamp for guard to close doors, but RA indicator used rather than bell codes (used at stations like Birmingham New St and Manchester Pic to guard against Spads but also used for dispatch of Pendolinos at most locations on the WCML)

c. Bat to driver of DOO train to indicate station work complete to close doors, followed by a green lamp or flag when safe to depart

 

[LowLevel]

Since the greater reliance on Train Operator's instructions for dispatch things have diverged quite a lot.

For example on EMR class 170s and 360s the guard is allowed to release the doors without first opening a local door if they've watched the train arrive through a droplight window. If not sure, check. Speeds things up quite a lot.

 

[Mojo]

For example on EMR class 170s and 360s the guard is allowed to release the doors without first opening a local door if they've watched the train arrive through a droplight window. If not sure, check. Speeds things up quite a lot.

On the Cross City line in Birmingham there are also green lines painted on the platform that means the guard can open the train doors without having to do a check also if the middle cab on 6 car sets or rear cab on single units was aligned appropriately. If operating from the controls in the pantograph car then the local door would still be opened first. Or at least this was permissible when I worked in that area in the late 2000s.

 

[stadler]

slight correction too that I believe (happy to be proven wrong) that Southern 171s is driver release guard close.

I think as thing move forward there will be a push for “Driver controlled operation” where there is a SC guard on every train that can do the doors if required, but normally the driver will have full control of the doors. I can’t see a push for future expansion of pure DOO, and I’m not convinced on the OBS position (however GTR / DfT have proven a lot of people wrong, many assumed that the grade would be binned off ASAP. 8 years later and they’re still actively recruiting the role).

I personally believe that driver release, guard close is better, however only if the ASDO system can detect and prevent a station stop short, however as mentioned above, many ASDO systems just release x number of coaches regardless of where the train stops.

Final point from me, the reduction in PTI incidents after LO moved to DOO. Surely that’s because there are no more ready to start against the red? I would very much imagine there’s been an increase in other incidents such as trap and drags, and other station irregularities. It would be interesting to know more granular details as to what has increased / decreased as a result of moving to full DOO.

Southern 171s are full Guard Open Guard Close on both the London Bridge to Uckfield and the Eastbourne to Ashford services. The Driver currently has no involvement in the doors on either route. However this has had a complicating history.

On the London Bridge to Uckfield route it has always been Guard Open Guard Close from day one. The Driver has never had any involvement in the doors. This is because up until 2015 (before the platform extensions) almost every station on the Uckfield branch had short platforms which required the Guard to activate the door deselect and therefore the Guard was required to release the doors at these stations. It was always decided to just use Guard Open Guard Close at all stations and for all lengths as it would make it confusing to only use it at some stations or for longer length trains. Since 2015 (when the platform extensions happened) door deselect is no longer used so technically they could switch to Driver Open Guard Close but they have decided to keep it as it is. So it is still Guard Open Guard Close on this route.

On the Eastbourne to Ashford (and Brighton to Ashford previously) route it was Driver Open Guard Close from day one all the way up until 2020 when it changed. This was because Southern only used two coach units on the line meaning there was no stations that required the Guard to release the doors. The only stations that could not fit two coaches were Doleham and Three Oaks which were the front coach only. However for the front coach only the Driver can activate door deselect himself (it is only for short platforms of more than one coach that the Driver can not do) so the Driver just released the doors at all stations. But then in 2020 they decided to introduce four coach units to the line. This meant there was multiple stations (such as, Appledore, Ham Street, Normans Bay, Pevensey Bay, Rye, Winchelsea, stations) which could only fit the front two or three coaches meaning the Guard had to activate door deselect and release the doors at these stations. It would have made it confusing to have the Driver releasing at some stations and the Guard releasing at other stations so in 2020 they decided to just switch over to Guard Open Guard Close entirely at all stations.

So currently the Southern 171s on both London Bridge to Uckfield and Eastbourne to Ashford are full Guard Open Guard Close at all stations and the Driver has no involvement in the doors any more.

 

[manmikey]

The method used on the 777s is absolutely bonkers, it’s one of the many irritating things about them.

I’m not sure what Merseyrail has mandated, but the Drivers seem to be super slow to release the doors. Theres literally no benefit to having the guard in control, quite mad.

There's a lot to check and get right
before opening the doors to avoid door release incidents.

Is the train stopped at the correct stop board?
Has the ASDO identifed the location correctly?
Has the ASDO correctly deselected doors if applicable?
Are you about to release the doors on the correct side of the train?

We are encouraged to have a thorough and methodical check of the above and not to rush a door deselection. My checks can take about 6 seconds before I actually release the doors, if I'm stopping against a red signal then add couple of seconds more to secure the train against the signal (DRA set on, full brake application and direction lever to neutral)

 

[dk1]

There's a lot to check and get right
before opening the doors to avoid door release incidents.

Is the train stopped at the correct stop board?
Has the ASDO identifed the location correctly?
Has the ASDO correctly deselected doors if applicable?
Are you about to release the doors on the correct side of the train?

We are encouraged to have a thorough and methodical check of the above and not to rush a door deselection. My checks can take about 6 seconds before I actually release the doors, if I'm stopping against a red signal then add couple of seconds more to secure the train against the signal (DRA set on, full brake application and direction lever to neutral)

We had the same with 745/755s and operate identical to you. It soon becomes second nature but I don’t think I ever took as long as six seconds. These days I’m frequently picked up on downloads for being to a little to eager although from my point of view I checked everything so thought it fine.

 

[Krokodil]

There's a lot to check and get right
before opening the doors to avoid door release incidents.

Is the train stopped at the correct stop board?
Has the ASDO identifed the location correctly?
Has the ASDO correctly deselected doors if applicable?
Are you about to release the doors on the correct side of the train?

We are encouraged to have a thorough and methodical check of the above and not to rush a door deselection. My checks can take about 6 seconds before I actually release the doors, if I'm stopping against a red signal then add couple of seconds more to secure the train against the signal (DRA set on, full brake application and direction lever to neutral)

Do Merseyrail trains stop at any short platforms where SDO may be required?

 

[stadler]

I could be wrong, but I’d thought drivers opened the doors on EMR 222s. Or they at least have some involvement in releasing the doors as the ‘SDO’ signs on the platforms line up with the front cab

From what i understand i believe on the 222s the Driver has to select the amount of coaches if necessary and then activate the Guards panel first. So it is still Guard Open Guard Close and the Guard has full control of the doors. But at every station the Driver has to first press buttons in the cab to activate the Guards panel before the Guard can then release the doors. It does seem an odd method and they are the only class to use it. So i guess this is yet a twelth method that the 222s use.

I have just remembered there was also a thirteenth method used by FGW/GWR on their 180s which was ten bell door release. When the train came to a stop the Guard opened their local door and checked the platform and then buzzed 3-2 to instruct the Driver to release the doors. Then the Driver buzzed 3-2 back and pressed the door release buttons. FGW/GWR were the only TOC to use this. None of the other operators of 180s do so i am not sure why they decided on this.

 

[pompeyfan]

That is not a PTI incident.

But it is still classed as a safety of the line incident, so would appear in the RSSBs stats for safety surely?

Southern 171s are full Guard Open Guard Close on both the London Bridge to Uckfield and the Eastbourne to Ashford services. The Driver currently has no involvement in the doors on either route. However this has had a complicating history.

On the London Bridge to Uckfield route it has always been Guard Open Guard Close from day one. The Driver has never had any involvement in the doors. This is because up until 2015 (before the platform extensions) almost every station on the Uckfield branch had short platforms which required the Guard to activate the door deselect and therefore the Guard was required to release the doors at these stations. It was always decided to just use Guard Open Guard Close at all stations and for all lengths as it would make it confusing to only use it at some stations or for longer length trains. Since 2015 (when the platform extensions happened) door deselect is no longer used so technically they could switch to Driver Open Guard Close but they have decided to keep it as it is. So it is still Guard Open Guard Close on this route.

On the Eastbourne to Ashford (and Brighton to Ashford previously) route it was Driver Open Guard Close from day one all the way up until 2020 when it changed. This was because Southern only used two coach units on the line meaning there was no stations that required the Guard to release the doors. The only stations that could not fit two coaches were Doleham and Three Oaks which were the front coach only. However for the front coach only the Driver can activate door deselect himself (it is only for short platforms of more than one coach that the Driver can not do) so the Driver just released the doors at all stations. But then in 2020 they decided to introduce four coach units to the line. This meant there was multiple stations (such as, Appledore, Ham Street, Normans Bay, Pevensey Bay, Rye, Winchelsea, stations) which could only fit the front two or three coaches meaning the Guard had to activate door deselect and release the doors at these stations. It would have made it confusing to have the Driver releasing at some stations and the Guard releasing at other stations so in 2020 they decided to just switch over to Guard Open Guard Close entirely at all stations.

So currently the Southern 171s on both London Bridge to Uckfield and Eastbourne to Ashford are full Guard Open Guard Close at all stations and the Driver has no involvement in the doors any more.

Thanks for the correction and the insight into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

From what i understand i believe on the 222s the Driver has to select the amount of coaches if necessary and then activate the Guards panel first. So it is still Guard Open Guard Close and the Guard has full control of the doors. But at every station the Driver has to first press buttons in the cab to activate the Guards panel before the Guard can then release the doors. It does seem an odd method and they are the only class to use it. So i guess this is yet a twelth method that the 222s use.

I have just remembered there was also a thirteenth method used by FGW/GWR on their 180s which was ten bell door release. When the train came to a stop the Guard opened their local door and checked the platform and then buzzed 3-2 to instruct the Driver to release the doors. Then the Driver buzzed 3-2 back and pressed the door release buttons. FGW/GWR were the only TOC to use this. None of the other operators of 180s do so i am not sure why they decided on this.

I’d imagine this was to keep it in keeping with the guard operated 165/166 on GWR on similar routes at the time?

 

[357]

But it is still classed as a safety of the line incident, so would appear in the RSSBs stats for safety surely?

I'd assume so, but reading what you said here:

Final point from me, the reduction in PTI incidents after LO moved to DOO. Surely that’s because there are no more ready to start against the red? I would very much imagine there’s been an increase in other incidents such as trap and drags, and other station irregularities. It would be interesting to know more granular details as to what has increased / decreased as a result of moving to full DOO.

Starting against a Signal, or being given two with a red, is nothing to do with the Platform Train Interface?

 

[43066]

I could be wrong, but I’d thought drivers opened the doors on EMR 222s. Or they at least have some involvement in releasing the doors as the ‘SDO’ signs on the platforms line up with the front cab

With 222s drivers only open doors directly when ECS. Otherwise they select the side of the train and number of coaches to release via the SDO panel, then operate a switch which authorises the guard to release from their panel. It’s effectively driver open guard close, as the guard has no way of verifying the correct number of doors has been a selected and, if a mistake is made, it’s entirely on the driver.

 

[pompeyfan]

I'd assume so, but reading what you said here:



Starting against a Signal, or being given two with a red, is nothing to do with the Platform Train Interface?

True, perhaps I could have worded it better.

 

[stadler]

But it is still classed as a safety of the line incident, so would appear in the RSSBs stats for safety surely?



Thanks for the correction and the insight into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==



I’d imagine this was to keep it in keeping with the guard operated 165/166 on GWR on similar routes at the time?

On the 165/166 they never used that method. On the 165/166 it was always Driver Open Driver Close with ten bell despatch (they switched to Driver Open Guard Close around 2020 after modifications) but ten bell door release was never used. So the 180s were unique in using the ten bell door release method. I suspect it was something to do with the unions wanting the Guards to release the doors on 180s like on the HSTs so they came up with this compromise.

 

[507 001]

There's a lot to check and get right
before opening the doors to avoid door release incidents.

Is the train stopped at the correct stop board?
Has the ASDO identifed the location correctly?
Has the ASDO correctly deselected doors if applicable?
Are you about to release the doors on the correct side of the train?

We are encouraged to have a thorough and methodical check of the above and not to rush a door deselection. My checks can take about 6 seconds before I actually release the doors, if I'm stopping against a red signal then add couple of seconds more to secure the train against the signal (DRA set on, full brake application and direction lever to neutral)

This is exactly the point, all of this negates any supposed benefits of DOO/DCO. It’s actually slower than having the guard do the doors.

 

[dk1]

This is exactly the point, all of this negates any supposed benefits of DOO/DCO. It’s actually slower than having the guard do the doors.

Not when you get used to it and especially when you consider if the guard is inside the train, step out & check, back on to release.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Punctuality and performance here at Greater Anglia has gone way beyond anybody’s wildest dreams five years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Our conductors & senior conductors now concentrate 99% of the time on passengers & revenue with one remaining on every single train that did before the change. Every one’s a winner.

 

[507 001]

Not when you get used to it and especially when you consider if the guard is inside the train, step out & check, back on to release.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Punctuality and performance here at Greater Anglia has gone way beyond anybody’s wildest dreams five years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Our conductors & senior conductors now concentrate 99% of the time on passengers & revenue with one remaining on every single train that did before the change. Every one’s a winner.

Maybe. At present it’s painfully slow compared to the 507s that are still knocking about. People are genuinely stood on the platforms looking confused, and then factor in the doors not simply opening like they do on a 507 it takes even longer.

 

[warwickshire]

On the 165/166 they never used that method. On the 165/166 it was always Driver Open Driver Close with ten bell despatch (they switched to Driver Open Guard Close around 2020 after modifications) but ten bell door release was never used. So the 180s were unique in using the ten bell door release method. I suspect it was something to do with the unions wanting the Guards to release the doors on 180s like on the HSTs so they came up with this compromise.

Gwr guards only, Chiltern Railways remain ten bell despatch.

 

[Krokodil]

Punctuality and performance here at Greater Anglia has gone way beyond anybody’s wildest dreams five years ago.

Not a very scientific comparison though because at least two variables have changed (the Method of Work and the rolling stock).

Over here we still have conventional guard operation of doors, but new trains have faster acceleration and shorter dwell times.