Metro-style next train indicator at Clapham Junction

[mirodo]

I'm doing an irregular commute this week which involves changing at Clapham Junction. I noticed this morning that the next train indicators on platforms 3 & 4 were of the form ordinal number | destination | due in x mins, rather than the normal scheduled time | destination | expected time format (which was in use on platforms 5 & 6 opposite).

Now this may not be a new thing at all - it's just the first time I've spotted it as my normal commute is on the Underground. I can understand using this method on LU, where the service is so frequent that it's a turn-up-and-go service, but though it was strange to use it on rail services where people will often arrive at the station with the intention of catching a specific train.

The cynic in me thinks it's a rather effective way of diguising delays from the passenger...

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Information on SWT website about this change:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/countdown.aspx

The change will affect ten stations in total.

 

[MCR247]

I can understand using this method on LU, where the service is so frequent that it's a turn-up-and-go service, but though it was strange to use it on rail services where people will often arrive at the station with the intention of catching a specific train.

The cynic in me thinks it's a rather effective way of diguising delays from the passenger...

I really doubt that someone heading from Clapham Junction to Waterloo would let trains pass by because they arrived at the station earlier than planned and so had a while before the train they planned to get on arrived

 

[tsr]

Southeastern have been doing this for some time on many of their routes within the London Zones - but I believe they may do it outside the Zones, too.

I feel it is fine for a metro-frequency service, but it's probably less useful for any route with fewer than 4tph to each applicable destination.

This has been said before... but... with regards to general domestic services in the UK, it's a pity the headcode/reporting number can't be displayed on official CIS and online systems, like it is on some customer-facing Eurostar systems and similar to airline flight numbers. It could allow passengers to specify which train they are on when speaking to anyone meeting them, could be used when finding out live info when trains are all displayed as "Delayed" at a very busy station, or when clarifying details to staff when asking for travel info - or when submitting a delay-repay claim, or contacting Customer Services about a fault. That said, LU trains have their numbers displayed on the cabs, but few people appear to notice, so this idea would have to be promoted well and the information would need to be added to loads of screens and printed materials.

 

[mirodo]

Yes, I realise that my arguement isn't exactly relevant to CLJ, but was unsure as to how widespread this new format was at other stations.

 

[tsr]

Yes, I realise that my arguement isn't exactly relevant to CLJ, but was unsure as to how widespread this new format was at other stations.

I forgot to mention London Overground and Tramlink* also use that format, for some reason. Oops! So those, plus Southeastern, if we're talking about the Greater London area. Can anyone think of any I've missed? Do c2c use this system (I can't remember!)?

*It doesn't exactly have Central London Tube frequencies at some times of day on some routes, so I think it counts - albeit as a light rail system.

 

[Eagle]

Can anyone think of any I've missed? Do c2c use this system (I can't remember!)?

Widen it to Britain as a whole, and you can have Merseyrail. Their displays usually read something like "1st | West Kirby | 4 mins | 3 cars".

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC all the SWT stations that do have it have at least 8 trains per hour and it is only towards London, not outbound with differing destinations

 

[jopsuk]

They'll also be stations that don't have Advance fares associated with them, so no issues with "booked train only" tickets.

 

[Searle]

Can anyone think of any I've missed? Do c2c use this system (I can't remember!)?

Nope, C2C don't. The only ones I can think of are LO and now SWT, as well as the tube/tramlink (all of which I think have been said)

 

[Aictos]

On FCC, Moorgate to Alexandra Palace would be ideal on the Inners for this change to the CIS or Kentish Town to London Bridge/Elephant & Castle for the services going though the Core.

 

[Fincra5]

Southeastern have them at St Leonards and Hastings... down there it shows the Time/ Destination, then on the right handside shows the countdown/ 'arrived' .

 

[bicbasher]

I forgot to mention London Overground and Tramlink* also use that format, for some reason. Oops! So those, plus Southeastern, if we're talking about the Greater London area. Can anyone think of any I've missed? Do c2c use this system (I can't remember!)?

*It doesn't exactly have Central London Tube frequencies at some times of day on some routes, so I think it counts - albeit as a light rail system.

LO don't use it between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, nor at Wandsworth Road or Clapham High Street.

This might to be with Southern providing the CIS information from Three Bridges due to the legacy of those stations mentioned above.

 

[Mojo]

LO don't use it between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, nor at Wandsworth Road or Clapham High Street.

It's not used at Shepherds Bush station either (which has both Southern and Overground services).

 

[tsr]

LO don't use it between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, nor at Wandsworth Road or Clapham High Street.

This might to be with Southern providing the CIS information from Three Bridges due to the legacy of those stations mentioned above.

It's not used at Shepherds Bush station either (which has both Southern and Overground services).

I'm sorry, yes, I should have been a tiny bit more specific and mentioned that it wasn't in place at every single LO-operated station! It doesn't seem to matter if the station is served by Southern services, though, as there are at least one or two other WLL stations with countdowns on the CIS.

Does anyone know if the former Basingstoke - Norwich (et al) services ever featured on countdown-style displays anywhere on the NLL, if suitable CIS systems were installed in those days? I can imagine those sorts of routes may have been subject to Advance ticketing.

 

[jon0844]

On FCC, Moorgate to Alexandra Palace would be ideal on the Inners for this change to the CIS or Kentish Town to London Bridge/Elephant & Castle for the services going though the Core.

From Alexandra Palace to Moorgate it would certainly work as they should all be on their own platform, and all stopping at every single station.

But the other way, it could be a problem as there are some services in the peaks that are semi-fast and people presumably know their trains by the time, and wouldn't always want to have to read the information scrolling below (and possibly only for the next service).

A solution would be to change the description perhaps, but it might still be confusing.

I'd say it works fine for platforms where trains are all stations and you're simply looking for the next train (or choosing by its destination, like a tube train).

I realise you have the Met Line and fast/semi-fast services, but that sort of proves my point as I find the screens quite limited and therefore slow to convey vital information.

 

[tsr]

From Alexandra Palace to Moorgate it would certainly work as they should all be on their own platform, and all stopping at every single station.

But the other way, it could be a problem as there are some services in the peaks that are semi-fast and people presumably know their trains by the time, and wouldn't always want to have to read the information scrolling below (and possibly only for the next service).

A solution would be to change the description perhaps, but it might still be confusing.

I'd say it works fine for platforms where trains are all stations and you're simply looking for the next train (or choosing by its destination, like a tube train).

I realise you have the Met Line and fast/semi-fast services, but that sort of proves my point as I find the screens quite limited and therefore slow to convey vital information.

-----------   PLATFORM 9   ------------
|1st 1728   Hertford North      1min  |
|   FCC semi-fast service. Calling at:|
|2nd 1738   Welwyn Garden City  11mins|
-------------  17:27:00  --------------

Solved?

 

[Eagle]

Solved?

That's exactly the system that Southeastern use. Time and countdown timer.

 

[tsr]

That's exactly the system that Southeastern use. Time and countdown timer.

Exactly! Do you think, however, that the particular method I have detailed is widely acceptable, or just a fad/underwhelming/unnecessary? Is it just as good to then go to the effort of providing actual times when a train is expected? Personally, I think I agree that it is useful for metro-style frequency services with a limited (but not uniform) range of calling patterns.

 

[D365]

That's the sort of style I'm sure many would appreciate, even with only a peak of 4tph. Along with the CIS being moved more to the centre of P3 at my more northerly FCC station as it has recently been tucked away behind the new lift... And remember that on the 'Albury GN Core', a new system might well be in place for dealing with these various inners using the two tracks. Thameslink/Welwyn using the Slows, Moorgate/Hertford using the upgraded Goods lines.

 

[bicbasher]

It's not used at Shepherds Bush station either (which has both Southern and Overground services).

I had no idea about Shepherds Bush using the traditional CIS display. I based my WLL observations as I've used Imperial Wharf which uses the same as the NLL/ELL core display.

I've seen a YouTube video of one of the LUL DC managed stations which also uses the traditional display for the Overground services, but not for LU Bakerloo services. They however use the same announcer as at ELL stations unlike the ex Southern stations which continue to use Phil Sayer or the female voice heard at Southern managed stations.

 

[Eagle]

I had no idea about Shepherds Bush using the traditional CIS display. I based my WLL observations as I've used Imperial Wharf which uses the same as the NLL/ELL core display.

Would the difference be that Shepherd's Bush would have been originally fitted out by Silverlink, but Imperial Wharf was fitted out by LO?

 

[bicbasher]

Would the difference be that Shepherd's Bush would have been originally fitted out by Silverlink, but Imperial Wharf was fitted out by LO?

Although not clear in this video, the CIS at Shepherd's Bush appears to be the LO standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnnThQo7SZQ

 

[Mojo]

The dot matrix indicator on the Southbound platform is different to on the Northbound, certainly not one I've seen at any other Overground station. Oh... and Anne does the announcements too.

 

[bicbasher]

The dot matrix indicator on the Southbound platform is different to on the Northbound, certainly not one I've seen at any other Overground station. Oh... and Anne does the announcements too.

Shepherd's Bush is unique for using Anne at a LO managed station I think?

 

[samxool]

hate them. Its purely done to hide how delayed trains are!

 

[NSEFAN]

hate them. Its purely done to hide how delayed trains are!

For metro services, it doesn't matter if all the trains are a bit late as there are plenty of them. If you turn up at Clapham or Earlsfield you can catch the first train to Waterloo.

Obviously when there are fewer trains, it's more helpful to know that there is disruption, especially on long journeys where there is a risk of missing a connecting service.

 

[jopsuk]

hate them. Its purely done to hide how delayed trains are!

If there's a train every few minutes, and all of them stop at the same stations, and the next one's in three minutes- why does it matter to you if if it's thirty minutes late? It won't hide the delay from the official statistics.

 

[Andrewlong]

If there's a train every few minutes, and all of them stop at the same stations, and the next one's in three minutes- why does it matter to you if if it's thirty minutes late? It won't hide the delay from the official statistics.

Agreed they use same system on tube trains. You never know if a service is running late - it's the gaps between them that matters to the public.

 

[Muzer]

However, I have sent a suggestion that I think has occurred to most people on here, they use the empty time slot at the left side of the board to display the scheduled departure time as they used to, so you can still see *which* train it is without looking on RTT...