Metroline 84 under threat ?

[A0wen]

According to this site https://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/traffic/metroline-84-bus-hertfordshire-to-be-cancelled-2022-8661004 it looks like Metroline are planning to withdraw from operating the long standing 84 between St Albans and New Barnet.

The bus company Metroline has "signalled its intention" to withdraw its 84 route in its entirety from early April.

Hertfordshire County Council, who partly fund the route, said they are "still awaiting an official cancellation" from Metroline.

HCC added they are in discussion with other bus operators to see which elements of the 84 service they could potentially take on commercially.

Route 84 currently calls at the following stops: St Albans - Cell Barnes - London Colney - South Mimms - Potters Bar - New Barnet.

This site https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/current/084.html confirms that the origins of the 84 date back to 1934 - and apart from a stint in the early 80s when it was operated by London Country it has been London Buses operated throughout.

I think it's the furthest north London Buses reach (and has been for some years).

Assume Covid hasn't helped it's use and therefore viability and I guess Metroline's operating costs are probably higher than other operators in Herts as a legacy of LT.

It'll be interesting to see (i) what replacement Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) come up with and (ii) who operates it - Uno would seem to be the obvious candidate as it fits with their overall network.

 

[smtglasgow]

This is sad news – seems quite drastic to be pulling the whole route. I’ve banged on about this before, but I’ve never understood why TfL withdrew support for the Barnet-Potters Bar link while still supporting frequent services into PB from further afield (298 and 313). Obviously TfL are cash-strapped (and would never entertain supporting anything north of Potters Bar) but if Hertfordshire could contribute some cash, could the TfL 383 be extended to Potters Bar with Herts brokering something (ideally commercial) for Potters Bar-St Albans.

 

[A0wen]

This is sad news – seems quite drastic to be pulling the whole route. I’ve banged on about this before, but I’ve never understood why TfL withdrew support for the Barnet-Potters Bar link while still supporting frequent services into PB from further afield (298 and 313). Obviously TfL are cash-strapped (and would never entertain supporting anything north of Potters Bar) but if Hertfordshire could contribute some cash, could the TfL 383 be extended to Potters Bar with Herts brokering something (ideally commercial) for Potters Bar-St Albans.

I think the thing with the 298 and 313 is the majority of the route is within the TFL area and it's only the "final mile" into Potters Bar which isn't - and presumably Potters Bar garage operates those routes as well.

Whereas the majority of the 84 is outside and only the final mile is into TFL's area. The reality is the route out of Potters Bar to Barnet has nothing on it - a very limited amount of housing. And Potters Bar - Barnet has at least 3 trains per hour which will be quicker to New Barnet. I'd have thought the more logical extension might be the 399 which runs up to Hadley Wood and extending that up to Potters Bar as it would be much less mileage in Herts.

On Potters Bar - St Albans, I still think Uno are most likely.

 

[TitanMike]

I think the thing with the 298 and 313 is the majority of the route is within the TFL area and it's only the "final mile" into Potters Bar which isn't - and presumably Potters Bar garage operates those routes as well.

Whereas the majority of the 84 is outside and only the final mile is into TFL's area. The reality is the route out of Potters Bar to Barnet has nothing on it - a very limited amount of housing. And Potters Bar - Barnet has at least 3 trains per hour which will be quicker to New Barnet. I'd have thought the more logical extension might be the 399 which runs up to Hadley Wood and extending that up to Potters Bar as it would be much less mileage in Herts.

On Potters Bar - St Albans, I still think Uno are most likely.

The 298 is operated by Sullivan Buses from South Mimms and the 313 is operated by Arriva from Enfield (Ponders End) garage.

 

[A0wen]

The 298 is operated by Sullivan Buses from South Mimms and the 313 is operated by Arriva from Enfield (Ponders End) garage.

OK - had assumed that Potters Bar might cover those - so what does it do ? Clearly stuff with an amount of dead running to / from the depot.

Add in the 242 - another Herts contract they ran has been scaled back and sacrificing the 84 either means they have plenty of other London work or are scaling back.

 

[Busaholic]

OK - had assumed that Potters Bar might cover those - so what does it do ? Clearly stuff with an amount of dead running to / from the depot.

The 263 Barnet Church to Highbury Barn for instance, basically an ex-trolleybus route, the 609. London Transport chose to close Finchley and Muswell Hill garages and keep Potters Bar open, which was always going to lead to much excess dead running.

It's incorrect, by the way, to describe the 84 as a London Buses route: it hasn't been for a number of years. It is operated by Metroline as a commercial concern: presumably, they now see it as uncommercial.

 

[duncombec]

OK - had assumed that Potters Bar might cover those - so what does it do ? Clearly stuff with an amount of dead running to / from the depot.

Add in the 242 - another Herts contract they ran has been scaled back and sacrificing the 84 either means they have plenty of other London work or are scaling back.

The go-to site for these questions is Londonbusroutes.net, which lists the following (http://www.londonbusroutes.net/garages.htm#PB):

London network routes: 134 231 234 263 307 317 382 384 491 W8
Night routes: 134 307
School/mobility routes: 634
Other routes: 84 242

Hertfordshire CC contracts 305 and PB1 aren't listed, as they don't touch London at all.

 

[Surreytraveller]

According to this site https://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/traffic/metroline-84-bus-hertfordshire-to-be-cancelled-2022-8661004 it looks like Metroline are planning to withdraw from operating the long standing 84 between St Albans and New Barnet.


This site https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/current/084.html confirms that the origins of the 84 date back to 1934 - and apart from a stint in the early 80s when it was operated by London Country it has been London Buses operated throughout.

I think it's the furthest north London Buses reach (and has been for some years).

Assume Covid hasn't helped it's use and therefore viability and I guess Metroline's operating costs are probably higher than other operators in Herts as a legacy of LT.

It'll be interesting to see (i) what replacement Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) come up with and (ii) who operates it - Uno would seem to be the obvious candidate as it fits with their overall network.

Presumably it stopped being London Buses/TfL when it was taken over by London Country in the 80s, and since has been a commercial or County Council operation. Although red buses are used for the route, it certainly isn't TfL!

 

[John Webb]

.....This site https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/current/084.html confirms that the origins of the 84 date back to 1934 - and apart from a stint in the early 80s when it was operated by London Country it has been London Buses operated throughout......

The 84 has its origins 110 years ago! It was instituted on the 3rd of August, 1912, by the London General Omnibus Company, nearly two decades after the last horse-drawn coach stopped running in 1895. According to Tony Billing's "84 Bus to St Albans" (published by the author in 2003, ISBN 0 95-8803 9 6) it was seen as more of an 'excursion' route for Londoners to get out into the country.

 

[A0wen]

It's incorrect, by the way, to describe the 84 as a London Buses route: it hasn't been for a number of years. It is operated by Metroline as a commercial concern: presumably, they now see it as uncommercial.

TBF I didn't say it was a TFL route. Metroline were part of London Buses when it was split in the late 80s.

Presumably it stopped being London Buses/TfL when it was taken over by London Country in the 80s, and since has been a commercial or County Council operation. Although red buses are used for the route, it certainly isn't TfL!

I believe it was a Herts County Council contract - even pre deregulation, which is how London Country picked it up. It went back to London Northern (as it was by then) and has been a mix of contract and commercial ever since.

 

[Surreytraveller]

TBF I didn't say it was a TFL route. Metroline were part of London Buses when it was split in the late 80s.

Using that argument, you could say it was part of London Buses when it was operated by London Country, as they were part of London Transport as well

 

[A0wen]

Using that argument, you could say it was part of London Buses when it was operated by London Country, as they were part of London Transport as well

Not sure I agree. London Country was removed from LT and placed under National Bus Company control in the late 60s.

To most people "London Buses" = red "London Transport" buses which the current Metroline operation is a direct descendant of.

 

[PeterC]

The 84 has its origins 110 years ago! It was instituted on the 3rd of August, 1912, by the London General Omnibus Company, nearly two decades after the last horse-drawn coach stopped running in 1895. According to Tony Billing's "84 Bus to St Albans" (published by the author in 2003, ISBN 0 95-8803 9 6) it was seen as more of an 'excursion' route for Londoners to get out into the country.

It started from the Crooked Billet in Walthamstow on summer Sundays at one time. In my bus spotting days I once did the full trip from there to St Albans with a Red Rover ticket.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not sure I agree. London Country was removed from LT and placed under National Bus Company control in the late 60s.

To most people "London Buses" = red "London Transport" buses which the current Metroline operation is a direct descendant of.

But many of the direct descendants of London Transport have commercial operations which could be considered as ex London Buses depending upon how you want to argue it. London Country, and all the routes which still exist in the old Country area could be considered direct descendants of London Transport

But many of the direct descendants of London Transport have commercial operations which could be considered as ex London Buses depending upon how you want to argue it. London Country, and all the routes which still exist in the old Country area could be considered direct descendants of London Transport

And 'London Buses' was a very short-lived operation, invented to allow the tendering of bus routes and for privatisation. It lasted maybe five years or so?

 

[Tubeboy]

“ I'd have thought the more logical extension might be the 399 which runs up to Hadley Wood and extending that up to Potters Bar as it would be much less mileage in Herts”

The 399 vehicles also double up as the 389 which runs in between the 399 times. The 389 is also London’s shortest bus route.

TFL, from memory subsidised the 84 between Barnet and Potters Bar until 2011. In response, Metroline then refused to accept Oyster cards. It then became wholly commercial with its own County fare structure.

 

[Tom B]

There are very many buses between Barnet and Potters Bar - but all out of service and driven at lively speed along country lanes!

 

[Tubeboy]

Metroline’s own F1 team!

 

[Deerfold]

But many of the direct descendants of London Transport have commercial operations which could be considered as ex London Buses depending upon how you want to argue it. London Country, and all the routes which still exist in the old Country area could be considered direct descendants of London Transport


And 'London Buses' was a very short-lived operation, invented to allow the tendering of bus routes and for privatisation. It lasted maybe five years or so?

London Buses Limited was the owner of East Thames Buses for many years. It now operates Dial a Ride and is still a subsidiary of London Bus Services Limited, which is colloquially known as London Buses and is part of TfL.

 

[Goldfish62]

London Buses Limited was the owner of East Thames Buses for many years. It now operates Dial a Ride and is still a subsidiary of London Bus Services Limited, which is colloquially known as London Buses and is part of TfL.

Indeed, London Buses Limited was incorporated in March 1985 and as you say still exists today. East Thames Buses was merely a trading name of LBL.

As Surrey traveller says, it did however only run the red bus network until 1989 when the operating companies were formed and obtained their own operator's licences.

 

[GusB]

We are drifting away from the topic of the thread, which is route 84 being under threat.

 

[Murray J]

Metroline notify Hertfordshire County Council of intention to deregister route 84 | Metroline

Following an unsustainable decline in passenger numbers, Metroline have notified Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) that we will be deregistering route 84. This decision was not taken lightly and we have tried to try find viable solutions to maintain the service in some form. We introduced a...

www.metroline.co.uk

confirmed, last day of operation is 1st April.

Following an unsustainable decline in passenger numbers, Metroline have notified Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) that we will be deregistering route 84. This decision was not taken lightly and we have tried to try find viable solutions to maintain the service in some form.

We introduced a number of initiatives to stabilise passenger numbers, including investing in new ticket machines to offer convenient contactless payment options and revised timetables. Unfortunately, Covid-19 totally undermined our plans and has had a detrimental effect on the amount of people using the service. This is compounded by operating costs significantly increasing. We have been in communication with HCC whilst investigating the options, and with no support unavailable at the level required, this route is no longer sustainable.

Discussions have commenced between HCC and other bus operators in the area whether they are able to operate any part of the route commercially. The planned last day of operation will be on April 1st, coinciding with the school holidays in order to minimise inconvenience to customers.

 

[Mikey C]

A shame, but as a London passenger, it's not an attractive option paying Metroline commercial fares to get to Potters Bar rather than taking the train or using the 298 (especially with the hopper ticket enabling you to change from another bus). I'd be amazed if something wasn't created elsewhere to cover the Potters Bar to St Albans section though.

There are very many buses between Barnet and Potters Bar - but all out of service and driven at lively speed along country lanes!

I have been on one of them, though not deliberately. I overslept on an 82, the driver didn't see me, so ending up getting an unexpected (and very confusing when I woke up) ride from North Finchley to Potters Bar, where I got out just before the bus garage

 

[A0wen]

A shame, but as a London passenger, it's not an attractive option paying Metroline commercial fares to get to Potters Bar rather than taking the train or using the 298 (especially with the hopper ticket enabling you to change from another bus). I'd be amazed if something wasn't created elsewhere to cover the Potters Bar to St Albans section though.

Speculation, but I wonder if Uno might consider re-routing the 610/611 which currently shadows the 298 to Cockfosters to instead run to New Barnet Station following the route into Barnet that the 84 currently does. That would cover the Potters Bar - Barnet section.

There are regular commercial services between London Colney and St Albans (357, 602) - so the 'gap' is London Colney - South Mimms - Potters Bar and that's lightly populated (between London Colney and South Mimms there is nothing but open countryside for ~3 miles). I could foresee some school journeys and maybe a couple of market day services to St Albans (Weds / Sat) but nothing like the current 84.

 

[Statto]

I doubt it, given it's mostly country roads with not many settlements from Hadley Highstone to Potters Bar & that's the problem. The only way Barnet to Potters Bar route will work is extending one of the TFL routes too Potters Bar, something like the 234 Barnet to East Finchley, which is currently operated by Potters Bar depot which will be convenient for driver change over too.

 

[A0wen]

I doubt it, given it's mostly country roads with not many settlements from Hadley Highstone to Potters Bar & that's the problem. The only way Barnet to Potters Bar route will work is extending one of the TFL routes too Potters Bar, something like the 234 Barnet to East Finchley, which is currently operated by Potters Bar depot which will be convenient for driver change over too.

But Uno already run to Cockfosters, that's just as rural after leaving Potters Bar. Arguably Barnet via High Barnet to New Barnet station might attract more use? Whereas the 610 is running alongside the 298 at the moment.

 

[Tom B]

I doubt it, given it's mostly country roads with not many settlements from Hadley Highstone to Potters Bar & that's the problem. The only way Barnet to Potters Bar route will work is extending one of the TFL routes too Potters Bar, something like the 234 Barnet to East Finchley, which is currently operated by Potters Bar depot which will be convenient for driver change over too.

I cannot see that happening. Although drivers do change over behind the Spires (travelling to/from PB in a transit van or an empty bus), this isn't on every trip. And why would you remove a half-hourly service through lack of use and replace it with one every 12 minutes? TfL are broke so they wouldn't pay for an additional service which is primarily outwith their area.

 

[Goldfish62]

TfL are broke so they wouldn't pay for an additional service which is primarily outwith their area.

TfL wouldn't have done that when they weren't broke either.

 

[Surreytraveller]

TfL wouldn't have done that when they weren't broke either.

I don't know. Maybe not every 12 minutes, but they're extending the 434 further out into Surrey

 

[A0wen]

I don't know. Maybe not every 12 minutes, but they're extending the 434 further out into Surrey

But the 434 extension to Caterham (which I guess is what you are referring to) is through an area where there is housing pretty consistently from Whyteleafe to Caterham, whereas Barnet to Potters Bar has 2-3 miles where there is nothing - a bit of a difference.

 

[Surreytraveller]

But the 434 extension to Caterham (which I guess is what you are referring to) is through an area where there is housing pretty consistently from Whyteleafe to Caterham, whereas Barnet to Potters Bar has 2-3 miles where there is nothing - a bit of a difference.

But still outside TfL's responsibility