Metrolink Second City Crossing

[Philip C]

The single line on the final approach to Rochdale terminus may cause some capacity issues as well. Although fairly short it includes a complicated road junction and a very slow curve.

As long as the plan remains to operate at a maximum frequency of 10tph (trams per hour) as far out as Shaw and Crompton and only 5tph beyond S&C to Rochdale Town Centre I cannot see any of the single track sections acting as constraints on capacity, other than that through the Newton Heath and Moston stop. Certainly that on the approach to Rochdale Town Centre stop doesn't seem to present any particular problems.

 

[radamfi]

As long as the plan remains to operate at a maximum frequency of 10tph (trams per hour) as far out as Shaw and Crompton and only 5tph beyond S&C to Rochdale Town Centre I cannot see any of the single track sections acting as constraints on capacity, other than that through the Newton Heath and Moston stop. Certainly that on the approach to Rochdale Town Centre stop doesn't seem to present any particular problems.

I don't think anyone doubts the ability to run a tram every 12 minutes between Rochdale and Shaw, given that's been happening for a couple of years now. The question is, is it *theoretically* possible to run a tram every 6 minutes between Rochdale and Shaw? I can't see that ever being needed, as I can't see loadings being so high that it is necessary, so the question is largely an academic one. It will be interesting to see whether trams regularly get held up outside Newton Heath & Moston during the 6 minute frequency.

 

[snowball]

Isn't the single line at Newton Heath & Moston pretty similar to the one at Navigation Road except that Navigation Road also has two level crossings (and a station on the heavy rail line)?

I would have thought that the single line from Newbold to High Level Road is substantially longer than either of the ones above.

 

[radamfi]

Isn't the single line at Newton Heath & Moston pretty similar to the one at Navigation Road except that Navigation Road also has two level crossings (and a station on the heavy rail line)?

I would have thought that the single line from Newbold to High Level Road is substantially longer than either of the ones above.

I just measured the Navigation Road single track in Google Maps at it appears to be about 600 metres, so quite a lot less than the ones on the Rochdale line.

 

[Ianno87]

To run a 6 minute frequency each way through to Rochdale, the transit time over the single line between Newbold and Rochdale Railway Station cannot be higher than 3 minutes, absolute maximum. This is of course aided by there being no intermediate stops on the single line (unlike Navigation Rd and Newton Heath & Moston).

In practice, off mmemory Newbold to Rochdale Railway Station must take something like 2-2.5 minutes each way (people with more local knowledge, please correct me!), so it is in theory possible to run a tram every 6 minutes, but with very little scope for recovery between consecutive trams, particularly given the long run from central Manchester (and beyond)

So I suspect the limit to a 12-minute frequency north of Shaw is a combination of:
-Insufficient demand to warrant a higher frequency (you would probably run double trams before upping the frequnecy)
-Saving of trams/drivers
-Not letting the Newbold single line affect the performance of the entire system, as even slight delays are likley to propgate quite quickly

 

[familyguy99]

I went to Exchange Square stop yesterday to check it out and here link if you want to see picture that I took.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/sets/72157651543861307

 

[Boysteve]

I know that the track is single track only over the bridge over Milnrow Road in Rochdale, but I was not aware that could be described as a "lengthy single track section"

Well the Newton Heath single section is similar in length to that at Navigation Road, but without the potential complications of the level crossings. A tram occupies each section for two minutes (including extra clearance time for signals/sensors). Therefore small delays can be absorbed in a 6 minute each way service.

However in my experience Newbold to Rochdale Railway Station takes a full 3 minutes in run through. No chance of running a 6 minute service in each direction without hideously optimistic levels of punctuality or big buffer allowances in both directions. Then I seriously doubt the demand for a 6 minute service into Rochdale.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was in Manchester yesterday and I thought I'd have a little run out to MediaCity and Rochdale. At Piccadilly Gardens I boarded an Eccles service and was pleasantly surprised to find that all Eccles trams were doubles. 3066+3069 took me to MediaCity. I've always loved the section from Deansgate onwards, especially as trams fly across that bridge towards Cornbrook like there's no tomorrow!

I've been around the MediaCity area several times but I just find it absolutely awe-inspiring. On the way back into town I was blessed with 3096+3080 all the way to Piccadilly where I took my friend to the station home. From Piccadilly the first tram that came was a Rochdale service. I've been meaning to go to Rochdale for a while despite it being quite a lengthy journey, but as I'd done my Christmas shopping and wanted a nice chill I hopped on blard a very prominant 3093 which waltzed it's way into the undercroft. The street section via Market Street is always fun and I love watching people run for their lives when they see these bright yellow monstrosities approaching. Victoria is looking much nicer since the refurb.

The journey out to Rochdale did drag a little but it was interesting to see some of the suburbs I haven't explored before. There's a few minor bends near Westwood which were quite fun, and that hill is certainly something on the climb towards Oldham! Best bit was the final turn into Rochdale, that's one tight bugger of a curve!

Had a quick look around Rochdale (which I have to admit was nore globalised than I thought) before heading back to the tram stop, where the next Ashton tram was in six minutes. Sure enough, 3087 snakes it's way into the stop with East Didsbury on the blind; there's me thinking it was just a quick glitch and it would update shortly. I was soon to be proved wrong....

As I understand it with all the works taking place in town all Rochdale services now go to Ashton. So of course at all the stops along the way, the platform boards were saying Ashton but when the tram arrived it had East Didsbury on the front of it. Cue some funny looks from confused passengers.

At Oldham, I noticed the screen changed from 'East Didsbury via Oldham' to 'East Didsbury via Exchange Quay'. So now we're all lost for words. A chap got on at Victoria and asked me if I knew where this tram was going. He wanted East Didsbury but I said I think it's an Ashton tram as we've come from Rochdale and all Rochdale trams go to Ashton at the moment. Part of me was wondering how this call at Exchange Square would work out, as of course it's briefly a terminal point at the moment. I thought if it was going to call there, I'd get off there and cut through the Arndale, but sure enough upon departure from Victoria it missed out the branch and continued straight on towards Shudehill. From there, the next stop apparently was Deansgate-Castlefield! So apparently we weren't calling at Market Street, which was marvellous. I thought this was too good to be true and thankfully we did call there, and then finally normality was restored as the screen changed to Ashton via Piccadilly. I think said guy who got on at Victoria probably had to get off at Piccadilly Gardens and walk back around to Market Street to go to East Didsbury! All in all, a very confusing journey!

After a quick bite to eat it was time to head back to the station. As I approached Piccadilly Gardens a tram was due (would have walked it if one wasn't due for a little.while) and so I jumped on. 3068+3071 took me on a final hop back to the station. All in all, a great day out! My next plan is to do the Exchange Square route and the Airport/Didsbury route

 

[mic]

i take it when the new line and st peters square are finsihed the Ashton service will go to Eccles again and the Rochdale service to East Didsbury

 

[Trainfan344]

Should be in Manchester on Sunday, what's the frequency on the Exchange Square branch?

 

[familyguy99]

Should be in Manchester on Sunday, what's the frequency on the Exchange Square branch?

Every 12 mins but stop is only open between 9am to 5pm on Sunday's.

I take it when the new line and st peters square are finished the Ashton service will go to Eccles again and the Rochdale service to East Didsbury

I think it should be Shaw to East Didsbury and Rochdale to East Didsbury (once St Peter Square opens) to give six mins service on Didsbury and Oldham lines and probably be Eccles to Ashton but I wouldn't be surprise to see Ashton service running to Bury like it did when East Manchester line first opened.

 

[freetoview33]

What will the services be like when the Trafford line opens? We know with metrolink that could be much sooner than planned!

 

[familyguy99]

What will the services be like when the Trafford line opens? We know with metrolink that could be much sooner than planned!

Probably every 12 mins unless Metrolink feel that line need 10tph, is rumour that Trafford line will run to Crumpsall as Crumpsall stop is getting new bay platform (like one at Shaw & Crompton) so Trafford centre trams can terminate there.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah plan is a 12 min frequency and just strengthen if theres an expected surge in demand, could also run some football specials/shopping specials from Cornbrook/Deansgate if demand requires.

 

[martinr1]

Here is a look at Victoria last Friday in its new role as a junction

https://youtu.be/H3fYGMYRq1w

 

[mic]

trams up to 3106 are now in use 3107 to 3120 to come

 

[freetoview33]

Slightly off topic but would the guided busway to Leigh ever have or will be a good candidate for upgrading to a Metrolink line?

 

[snowball]

You'd need a route to connect it to the Metrolink network at the Manchester end.

 

[richardio123]

trams up to 3106 are now in use 3107 to 3120 to come

BIB: 3108 actually

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Slightly off topic but would the guided busway to Leigh ever have or will be a good candidate for upgrading to a Metrolink line?

One really must ask exactly what the capital spend on this as-yet unfinished project has been committed and add on top of that all the extra capital requirements of the requisite infrastructural works that would be required to see your aspiration bear fruit.

Mind you, the thought of Metrolink trams on the current A580 planned road sections is one to make the mind boggle...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You'd need a route to connect it to the Metrolink network at the Manchester end.

God bless you for your inherent logic in this matter..

 

[freetoview33]

Okay it would have to take a different route the A580 isn't going to be suitable for trams!

 

[radamfi]

Okay it would have to take a different route the A580 isn't going to be suitable for trams!

There are a number of existing examples of metro lines and guided busways travelling along main roads, particularly down the middle between the two carriageways. Ideally you would probably put some kind of barrier separating it from road traffic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are a number of existing examples of metro lines and guided busways travelling along main roads, particularly down the middle between the two carriageways. Ideally you would probably put some kind of barrier separating it from road traffic.

I would be interested to see the road plans on the A580 that makes allowances for your proposition stated above. Would there be a need for lane reduction to normal commercial vehicle and private road traffic or is it envisaged that the A580 would need to be widened?

 

[radamfi]

I would be interested to see the road plans on the A580 that makes allowances for your proposition stated above. Would there be a need for lane reduction to normal commercial vehicle and private road traffic or is it envisaged that the A580 would need to be widened?

Just look at existing examples to see what has been done in the past.

Also, surely there's already a lane lost due to the new bus lane?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just look at existing examples to see what has been done in the past.

Also, surely there's already a lane lost due to the new bus lane?

I refer you to your contention in a recent posting that a barrier would need to be established as a mode of separation. That area of that barrier would need more constructional space on the road surface width-ways that just the existing width of a white road marking that currently separates road lanes.

 

[radamfi]

I refer you to your contention in a recent posting that a barrier would need to be established as a mode of separation. That area of that barrier would need more constructional space on the road surface width-ways that just the existing width of a white road marking that currently separates road lanes.

A non-guided bus lane is quite wide (or at least should be) because it has to accommodate the width of a bus, plus a significant gap to the next lane because there is no barrier and buses don't travel in an direct line, whereas a tram does. I doubt a tram plus barrier takes up significantly more space than a bus lane, and if there is more space required, it would be small and unlikely to mean a reduction in traffic lanes.

 

[edwin_m]

If the Atherton line was ever converted to Metrolink or tram-train then a connection might be made to carry trams between a converted Leigh busway and the centre of Manchester. However Atherton Metrolink doesn't appear to be a priority at present, probably because it would need a costly and difficult new street alignment from the vicinity of Salford Crescent across much of Salford and Manchester city centres.

 

[Altfish]

If the Atherton line was ever converted to Metrolink or tram-train then a connection might be made to carry trams between a converted Leigh busway and the centre of Manchester. However Atherton Metrolink doesn't appear to be a priority at present, probably because it would need a costly and difficult new street alignment from the vicinity of Salford Crescent across much of Salford and Manchester city centres.

Could a tram line drop down onto the old Bolton Moor St to Patricroft line?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There are a number of existing examples of metro lines and guided busways travelling along main roads, particularly down the middle between the two carriageways. Ideally you would probably put some kind of barrier separating it from road traffic.

I would be interested to see the road plans on the A580 that makes allowances for your proposition stated above. Would there be a need for lane reduction to normal commercial vehicle and private road traffic or is it envisaged that the A580 would need to be widened?

Just look at existing examples to see what has been done in the past.

Also, surely there's already a lane lost due to the new bus lane?

The mention of this brought to mind the guided busway in Essen, Germany. This has a lengthy section which runs down the central reservation of a busy Autobahn. The running of metros down the central reservation of roads is fairly widespread in Germany from motorways to smaller "parkway" type roads into city centres (an example passes near the Westfalenstadion in Dortmund). I suppose that's one advantage of having a bit more space to play with!

 

[Darren R]

Having been out of the country for a while I'm only just starting to catch up, so apologies in advance if I've missed something in the process. However... what is the point in running trams beyond Victoria only as far as a station that is just around the corner? Is there an operational reason for it? Given that the journey is made on foot from Victoria to Exchange Square in two minutes flat, I don't really see that it's going to make any particular difference to passengers heading into the city centre.