Metrolink tram speculation, including possible extension to Stockport

[py_megapixel]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/metrolink-coming-to-bolton-shapps.196176/

Ditto with the tram in Stockport. It just sounds like some people just dont like trams becausr they are trams and not trains.

On the converted railway sections outside the city centre, and on a few of the new-build sections, Metrolink to the casual observer is almost indistinguishable from a high-frequency local train service, and quite a high-quality one too. Of course, when it gets onto the streets, that's a different matter.
Maybe if TfGM shifted their terminology and started calling them metro trains rather than trams, people would view it with a little more respect.

That said, I really don't see what the appeal is in trams to Stockport. The most popular suggested route is extending from East Didsbury, but that wouldn't really provide many new connections. Alternatively I've seen (and even at one point made) suggestions of running up the A6 from Piccadilly, but the 192 bus already does that, and it does it quite well. I suppose you could extend from Wythenshawe, but again it wouldn't provide massively improved connections.

A tram might be nicer that what we have currently, but I don't think it would attract much modal shift, and unfortunately given the stretched nature of budgets I don't think it would really be an effective use of resources. I understand there is a project to rebuild Stockport bus station shortly to commence, along with an upgraded walking route to the station, and that will be a genuine benefit when it comes to attracting new passengers, more so than a tram line ever could be (I used the old Stockport bus station a few years ago, and it was a dump, albeit a dump on fairly impressive scale)

 

[AlastairFraser]

On the converted railway sections outside the city centre, and on a few of the new-build sections, Metrolink to the casual observer is almost indistinguishable from a high-frequency local train service, and quite a high-quality one too. Of course, when it gets onto the streets, that's a different matter.
Maybe if TfGM shifted their terminology and started calling them metro trains rather than trams, people would view it with a little more respect.

That said, I really don't see what the appeal is in trams to Stockport. The most popular suggested route is extending from East Didsbury, but that wouldn't really provide many new connections. Alternatively I've seen (and even at one point made) suggestions of running up the A6 from Piccadilly, but the 192 bus already does that, and it does it quite well. I suppose you could extend from Wythenshawe, but again it wouldn't provide massively improved connections.

A tram might be nicer that what we have currently, but I don't think it would attract much modal shift, and unfortunately given the stretched nature of budgets I don't think it would really be an effective use of resources. I understand there is a project to rebuild Stockport bus station shortly to commence, along with an upgraded walking route to the station, and that will be a genuine benefit when it comes to attracting new passengers, more so than a tram line ever could be (I used the old Stockport bus station a few years ago, and it was a dump, albeit a dump on fairly impressive scale)

The idea is that it could proceed on to Stockport bus station and then through the town centre to Offerton, the bus station is due a refresh at the same point, so it makes sense to leave space for it.
The wider point is that it might replace a lot of M60/local A road journeys across towards the Trafford direction as interurban journeys in GM avoiding Mcr city centre are near impossible at present with decent, rail based public transport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The idea is that it could proceed on to Stockport bus station and then through the town centre to Offerton, the bus station is due a refresh at the same point, so it makes sense to leave space for it.

What special attraction does Offerton have? With regards to Stockport bus station, it has now been closed for a number of weeks, with a temporary bus station in Heaton Lane with only a few stances and many of the services that sensibly terminated in one main bus interchange being now scattered all over the town centre.

In the plans for the new bus station, where has space been allocated for any future Manchester Metrolink stop?

 

[Chester1]

On the converted railway sections outside the city centre, and on a few of the new-build sections, Metrolink to the casual observer is almost indistinguishable from a high-frequency local train service, and quite a high-quality one too. Of course, when it gets onto the streets, that's a different matter.
Maybe if TfGM shifted their terminology and started calling them metro trains rather than trams, people would view it with a little more respect.

That said, I really don't see what the appeal is in trams to Stockport. The most popular suggested route is extending from East Didsbury, but that wouldn't really provide many new connections. Alternatively I've seen (and even at one point made) suggestions of running up the A6 from Piccadilly, but the 192 bus already does that, and it does it quite well. I suppose you could extend from Wythenshawe, but again it wouldn't provide massively improved connections.

A tram might be nicer that what we have currently, but I don't think it would attract much modal shift, and unfortunately given the stretched nature of budgets I don't think it would really be an effective use of resources. I understand there is a project to rebuild Stockport bus station shortly to commence, along with an upgraded walking route to the station, and that will be a genuine benefit when it comes to attracting new passengers, more so than a tram line ever could be (I used the old Stockport bus station a few years ago, and it was a dump, albeit a dump on fairly impressive scale)

The bus service indicates that East Didsbury to Stockport would support a single tram every 12 minutes. The only Metrolink line with a (pre pandemic) service that low is Broadway to Eccles. The line was only built past Salford Quays because of substantial EU funding due to the levels of deprivation. The only way East Disbury - Stockport would work financially would be if piggybacked off a Stockport - Airport tram train line via Wythenshawe.

The proposed Bolton - Bury line has a similar problem. It could support a meaningful service but not one that would provide an adequate business case.

 

[AlastairFraser]

What special attraction does Offerton have? With regards to Stockport bus station, it has now been closed for a number of weeks, with a temporary bus station in Heaton Lane with only a few stances and many of the services that sensibly terminated in one main bus interchange being now scattered all over the town centre.

In the plans for the new bus station, where has space been allocated for any future Manchester Metrolink stop?

It fits the regen objectives, it takes a lot of buses off congested roads and provides a faster journey to a very isolated part of Stockport proper and connects the station area to the town centre proper.
I know about Stockport bus station, I often catch the 199 as I work in Buxton, it is just temporary of course.
This article details how Stockport Council have left space for a tram in the new bus station plans: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/stockport-prepares-1bn-metrolink-bid/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It fits the regen objectives, it takes a lot of buses off congested roads and provides a faster journey to a very isolated part of Stockport proper and connects the station area to the town centre proper.

Is not Offerton already well enough served by the 314, 383 and 384 services?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is not Offerton already well enough served by the 314, 383 and 384 services?

Slow, expensive and would be better repurposed as limited stop in those areas onwards to Marple and Romiley/Bredbury, which currently receive a slow connection and, as a result, most drive using the M60 and A6017/A626.
Or to link Offerton and the north side to a railhead at Hazel Grove for jobs further out or travel to Sheffield.

 

[Purple Orange]

On the converted railway sections outside the city centre, and on a few of the new-build sections, Metrolink to the casual observer is almost indistinguishable from a high-frequency local train service, and quite a high-quality one too. Of course, when it gets onto the streets, that's a different matter.
Maybe if TfGM shifted their terminology and started calling them metro trains rather than trams, people would view it with a little more respect.

That said, I really don't see what the appeal is in trams to Stockport. The most popular suggested route is extending from East Didsbury, but that wouldn't really provide many new connections. Alternatively I've seen (and even at one point made) suggestions of running up the A6 from Piccadilly, but the 192 bus already does that, and it does it quite well. I suppose you could extend from Wythenshawe, but again it wouldn't provide massively improved connections.

A tram might be nicer that what we have currently, but I don't think it would attract much modal shift, and unfortunately given the stretched nature of budgets I don't think it would really be an effective use of resources. I understand there is a project to rebuild Stockport bus station shortly to commence, along with an upgraded walking route to the station, and that will be a genuine benefit when it comes to attracting new passengers, more so than a tram line ever could be (I used the old Stockport bus station a few years ago, and it was a dump, albeit a dump on fairly impressive scale)

I see value in an east-west metrolink line through Cheadle and Wythenshawe to the airport & Altrincham, as it links four north-south corridors together. Other than that, Stockport is really a heavy rail area and I’d hope to see as much effort as possible to improve commuter frequency through the lines in to Stockport station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that this thread has suddenly moved geographically from the part of Greater Manchester known as Bolton to another part known as Stockport.

Many thanks to the forum staff for this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back to the matter of Stockport, which is the area of concern of this new thread, anyone familiar to the town centre will know that it is in a deep river valley with steep hills on both sides of the river. That in itself should not pose problems for the Manchester Metrolink trams as the area past Etihad Campus and the Collyhurst tunnel where the line dips down into its tunnel section seems to pose no problems.

There is one area that cropped up on past threads over the years on the Manchester Metrolink system which definitely falls under the title of "Speculation" is to take the system into areas with no rail station, but which have a good number of bus services serving the area. Offerton in the Stockport area has already been mentioned as an example on this new thread, but even speculation can be tinged with a little reality when the matter of the extra trams that would have to be purchased and a new tram depot, the existing two depots being full to capacity with other speculation ideas.

 

[cle]

I do agree that a E/W line from the Airport to Stockport would be a great overlay with an extension from East Didsbury. Even if for the last final sprint.

Orbital links are more and it would link two rail hubs, and of course HS2 - plus employment opps. Things like Sheffield to Mcr Airport might make more sense (especially if directs go in future) - with integrated ticketing and mode-agnostic CX and branding. That's the real challenge.

 

[py_megapixel]

I see value in an east-west metrolink line through Cheadle and Wythenshawe to the airport & Altrincham, as it links four north-south corridors together.

Might be a good shout. The people of Cheadle have been campaigning for a rail service for a while; in reality I think they want a station on the mid cheshire line but realistically at ram would probably serve them better.

Not clear to me where you'd put it though. On Street View the A560 through Cheadle Village looks a bit tight on space. Possibly someone with the benefit of more extensive/up-to-date local knowledge might have a better suggestion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Might be a good shout. The people of Cheadle have been campaigning for a rail service for a while; in reality I think they want a station on the mid cheshire line but realistically at ram would probably serve them better.

Not clear to me where you'd put it though. On Street View the A560 through Cheadle Village looks a bit tight on space. Possibly someone with the benefit of more extensive/up-to-date local knowledge might have a better suggestion.

Cheadle indeed is paying the price for past short-sighted rail infrastructural "improvements" such as the single-tracking of part of the route with the bridge over Roscoe's roundabout a prime example. It still retains its central shopping area but the A560 road through the town centre is so very busy that any tram would find hold-ups a fact of life. The railway still has quite a number of freight trains using it to access the Mid-Cheshire Line.

 

[Purple Orange]

Might be a good shout. The people of Cheadle have been campaigning for a rail service for a while; in reality I think they want a station on the mid cheshire line but realistically at ram would probably serve them better.

Not clear to me where you'd put it though. On Street View the A560 through Cheadle Village looks a bit tight on space. Possibly someone with the benefit of more extensive/up-to-date local knowledge might have a better suggestion.

It would be a tram-train service as opposed to a street running tram line. It’s a very under utilised line and as metrolink is really more of a light rail metro with street running in the city centre, this sort of conversion is a good one. (I know that is heretical on this forum, but it is the best use of the line).

*note to those spitting feathers, tram-trains are intended to share track with heavy rail, so you won’t lose your hourly 2-car northern service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

*note to those spitting feathers, tram-trains are intended to share track with heavy rail, so you won’t lose your hourly 2-car northern service.

Just to clarify matters, with tram-train, is there any difference between sharing tracks with a heavy freight train of a much higher tonnage than a passenger train and a standard heavy-rail train. One thing springs to mind is the air pressure when tram-trains pass either of the two types of train mentioned above.

 

[py_megapixel]

It would be a tram-train service as opposed to a street running tram line. It’s a very under utilised line and as metrolink is really more of a light rail metro with street running in the city centre, this sort of conversion is a good one. (I know that is heretical on this forum, but it is the best use of the line).

That flies in the face of the idea of providing a Airport-Wythenshawe-Stockport connection though, so we're back to the idea of just a token extension to Stockport so that Burnham (or whoever) can say that Metrolink serves Stockport, unless you expect the trams to branch off the Mid Cheshire line somewhere around Sharston (but I'm not sure if there's room for that?)

Also, where would it terminate at the Stockport end? Currently the mid cheshire line just goes into Stockport station, but that's quite inconvenient for the station.

And how does this connect into the rest of the network? Operationally it probably needs to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This article details how Stockport Council have left space for a tram in the new bus station plans: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/stockport-prepares-1bn-metrolink-bid/

That might answer the question raised in the previous posting.

 

[javelin]

That flies in the face of the idea of providing a Airport-Wythenshawe-Stockport connection though, so we're back to the idea of just a token extension to Stockport so that Burnham (or whoever) can say that Metrolink serves Stockport, unless you expect the trams to branch off the Mid Cheshire line somewhere around Sharston (but I'm not sure if there's room for that?)

Also, where would it terminate at the Stockport end? Currently the mid cheshire line just goes into Stockport station, but that's quite inconvenient for the station.

And how does this connect into the rest of the network? Operationally it probably needs to.

The idea apparently is for some kind of connection with the Metrolink airport line at Baguley (yeah, not clear precisely how yet), and to travel down the western side of the proposed Wythenhawe loop (past the hospital and on to HS2/airport). That would avoid all the slow street running through Wythenshawe.

At Stockport station the tram train would run through to new platforms where station road is, on the west side between the station and the sidings. It would then carry on down the hill to the bus interchange and connect to the East Didsbury extension.

 

[Grimsby town]

A Didsbury to Stockport line is the only realistic proposal for a tram connection to Stockport that wouldn't have to be tram train. I'm sure the line would have decent business case. It provides a cheaper way to travel from Stockport to Media City, it improves journey times from the Chorlton area to Stockport and avoids some of the significant road congestion that bues have to deal with. It also provides alternative and quicker connections to the rail network from Didsbury and Chorlton.

I'd say the main benefit though is developing tram infrastructure in Stockport that other lines can be built off. Plans suggested and explored at a strategic level include Stockport to the Airport, Stockport to Altrincham and Stockport to Ashton via Reddish and Denton. Stockport to Ashton has particularly slow bus connections and the line between Stockport and Alty is a no brainer for higher frequencies and more stations.

 

[HSTEd]

Well there is one obvious corridor heading in the general direction of Stockport that would generate enormous quantities of traffic, for at least part of it's length (hint, its the A34 and the road immediately west of it!).

But what buses currently run to Stockport?
The 42 and the 192? Are there any others?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But what buses currently run to Stockport?
The 42 and the 192? Are there any others?

The 23 and the 25 both run from Stockport to the Trafford Centre via parts of Chorlton.

 

[HSTEd]

The 23 and the 25 both run from Stockport to the Trafford Centre via parts of Chorlton.

There is also the 197 but it is only 3bph.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is also the 197 but it is only 3bph.

Yes, but what you must realise is the 23, 25 and 197 all serve the residents of different parts of the Stockport area en route to their final destination and to the people living in those areas, the bus at least offers a service, irrespective of frequency.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, but what you must realise is the 23, 25 and 197 all serve the residents of different parts of the Stockport area en route to their final destination and to the people living in those areas, the bus at least offers a service, irrespective of frequency.

I was simply trying to gauge how many through passengers there might be that could be abstracted by the tram.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was simply trying to gauge how many through passengers there might be that could be abstracted by the tram.

The areas of Heaton Moor and Green End served by those buses, with quite sizeable populations are not really near to the line of a Metrolink extension from the current East Didsbury terminus to a projected Stockport tram stop. Stockport goes down as far as the border area at Levenshulme near to the McVitie and Price biscuit works, then across from there covering a very wide geographical area towards the border with Burnage and East Didsbury. Between Parrs Wood and Cheadle, the River Mersey separates those two areas with not quite the same population density on the Stockport side of the river.

 

[Purple Orange]

Just to clarify matters, with tram-train, is there any difference between sharing tracks with a heavy freight train of a much higher tonnage than a passenger train and a standard heavy-rail train. One thing springs to mind is the air pressure when tram-trains pass either of the two types of train mentioned above.

I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t know the technical details on that issue. My opinion of tram-train is that it is a proven concept and it gives the opportunity to expand metrolink, which has also proven to be very successful in getting people on to public transport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t know the technical details on that issue. My opinion of tram-train is that it is a proven concept and it gives the opportunity to expand metrolink, which has also proven to be very successful in getting people on to public transport.

When the long-running tram-train trials held between Sheffield and Rotherham were in operation, was everything found to be in good order and no technical problems encountered?

 

[daodao]

I see value in an east-west metrolink line through Cheadle and Wythenshawe to the airport & Altrincham,

Why, where and how?

Apart from services to the Airport from the central Manchester direction, historic North Cheshire now within the boroughs of Trafford/South Manchester/Stockport, south of the River Mersey and beyond the historic tram termini of Altrincham, Chorlton, West Didsbury, Parrs Wood and Hazel Grove, is too thinly populated to support rail services. There is moderate demand on the Wythenshawe/Gatley/Cheadle/Edgeley/Stockport corridor (formerly partly served by trams), and directly from Stockport to the Airport, but not enough to justify a heavy/light rail service. There is also a moderate case to extend Metrolink from Parrs Wood to Stockport town centre, for alternate journeys (5 tph) currently terminating at Parrs Wood, although it would be of limited use to travel from Stockport beyond Cornbrook except for interchange to other services there.

 

[Purple Orange]

Why, where and how?

Apart from services to the Airport from the central Manchester direction, historic North Cheshire now within the boroughs of Trafford/South Manchester/Stockport, south of the River Mersey and beyond the historic tram termini of Altrincham, Chorlton, West Didsbury, Parrs Wood and Hazel Grove, is too thinly populated to support rail services. There is moderate demand on the Wythenshawe/Gatley/Cheadle/Edgeley/Stockport corridor (formerly partly served by trams), and directly from Stockport to the Airport, but not enough to justify a heavy/light rail service. There is also a moderate case to extend Metrolink from Parrs Wood to Stockport town centre, for alternate journeys (5 tph) currently terminating at Parrs Wood, although it would be of limited use to travel from Stockport beyond Cornbrook except for interchange to other services there.

Have you ever looked at the proposals coming out of TfGM? I’d suggest you start there.

As for populations, the population densities from Altrincham around to Cheadle, Bramhall and Hazel Grove are actually rather high. Take a look at the actual statistics.

For clarity, the tram-train line in question would be line through Cheadle & Buguley to Altrincham, with a link at Baguley for the airport. This proposal is also in tender with the Wilmslow-Styal-Airport tram-train pathfinder, which would result in services from Wilmslow potentially reaching Altrincham too.

 

[HSTEd]

If you are going to pay for the tram infrastructure from Didsbury to stockport, why wouldn't you just run all the trams out there?

Terminating some short sounds like penny-wise and pound foolish