Metrolink tram speculation, including possible extension to Stockport

[Purple Orange]

No, not this tripe again.

Build tram links to places that need connecting, don't screw with good rail links.

It creates capacity at Piccadilly & Victoria and increases capacity on the lines themselves. Not doing so is profligate.

 

[daodao]

You can’t use bus patronage as a proxy for determining the potential patronage of a new metrolink line.

I disagree. Bus usage is a proxy for the potential number of existing public transport users who might use an alternative form of public transport.

It also opens up the whole of the line to Stockport station which may be a better interchange for those travelling south on heavy rail.

I was not aware that the proposed Metrolink extension to Stockport was intended to extend beyond the bus station up the steep hill to the railway station, but without this link, connectivity would be limited.

No, not this tripe again.

Build tram links to places that need connecting, don't screw with good rail links.

The current Manchester-Marple Rose Hill train service is poor, and would be improved significantly by conversion to Metrolink. Converting the Glossop/Hadfield line to Metrolink would be beneficial in terms of increased frequency and better city centre penetration, but would be more complex to achieve and involves cross-boundary operation beyond Greater Manchester. Both conversions would free up platform capacity at Manchester Piccadilly and do not involve any construction in the city centre, as the new routes could operate as extensions of the existing services from Bury and Altrincham that terminate at Piccadilly.

 

[Purple Orange]

I disagree. Bus usage is a proxy for the potential number of existing public transport users who might use an alternative form of public transport.

A better comparison would be the metrolink lines where there were no previous heavy rail lines for comparison. Wythenshawe, Eccles & Media City, Ashton. How have those compared? Favourably is the answer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A better comparison would be the metrolink lines where there were no previous heavy rail lines for comparison. Wythenshawe, Eccles & Media City, Ashton. How have those compared? Favourably is the answer.

Eccles demonstrates very well just how British people dislike buses. It's slow and grinding, only running to Eccles to get EU Objective 1 funding - really it's a Salford Quays line. Yet it seems it has pretty comprehensively killed off most of the former fast (quicker than the tram) Eccles-Manchester bus service.

 

[Purple Orange]

Eccles demonstrates very well just how British people dislike buses. It's slow and grinding, only running to Eccles to get EU Objective 1 funding - really it's a Salford Quays line. Yet it seems it has pretty comprehensively killed off most of the former fast (quicker than the tram) Eccles-Manchester bus service.

It will be interesting to see how the regulated bus network impacts this once it’s fully implemented, because even the tram is slow to Eccles. That said, once there is a new route in to the city centre via Salford Crescent, services too/from Eccles May be significantly improved.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I was not aware that the proposed Metrolink extension to Stockport was intended to extend beyond the bus station up the steep hill to the railway station, but without this link, connectivity would be limited.

I concur. Fair old schlep from the bus station area up the hillside to Stockport (Edgeley) station. Just under half a mile and a hundred foot height gain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I concur. Fair old schlep from the bus station area up the hillside to Stockport (Edgeley) station. Just under half a mile and a hundred foot height gain.

It's nowhere near half a mile as the crow flies (about 400m). Just needs a path* and a cliff lift!

(In all seriousness yes I think Metrolink needs to go there)

* For some reason I recall there being one from the back corner of the bus station but I can't now find any evidence of it.

 

[yorksrob]

It creates capacity at Piccadilly & Victoria and increases capacity on the lines themselves. Not doing so is profligate.

So does building a bay platform (plenty of room at Vic anyway). At Pic, the Hadfields go nowhere near the problematic Pic - Deansgate section.

The current Manchester-Marple Rose Hill train service is poor, and would be improved significantly by conversion to Metrolink. Converting the Glossop/Hadfield line to Metrolink would be beneficial in terms of increased frequency and better city centre penetration, but would be more complex to achieve and involves cross-boundary operation beyond Greater Manchester. Both conversions would free up platform capacity at Manchester Piccadilly and do not involve any construction in the city centre, as the new routes could operate as extensions of the existing services from Bury and Altrincham that terminate at Piccadilly.

Glossop - Hadfield is certainly better suited as a national rail service, penetratingas it does into Derbyshire. A swift, half hourly electric service with plenty of capacity, and toilet facilities is ideally suited to it.

 

[daodao]

It's nowhere near half a mile as the crow flies (about 400m). Just needs a path* and a cliff lift!

(In all seriousness yes I think Metrolink needs to go there)

* For some reason I recall there being one from the back corner of the bus station but I can't now find any evidence of it.

There definitively was a path in June 2019, because I used it then (when I was still fit enough to do so). It is a strenuous climb, like that in Macclesfield from Waters Green (near the railway station) to the town centre. However, Stockport bus station closed for redevelopment a few weeks ago, so the path may no longer be accessible. The old eastern Cheshire mill towns near the Pennines are not flat.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It's nowhere near half a mile as the crow flies (about 400m). Just needs a path* and a cliff lift!

Something like the one at Saltburn-by-the-Sea?

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't by far the cheapest solution to the Stockport Railway-Bus station transfer just be to provide an escalator?

 

[lachlan]

Wouldn't by far the cheapest solution to the Stockport Railway-Bus station transfer just be to provide an escalator?

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be accessible to wheelchair users

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be accessible to wheelchair users

In any case, the viaduct is only ~33m tall.

Are we absolutely sure the valley side is untenable for trams that can manage 10% gradients like they do in Sheffield?

Especially as the tram station at the bus station does not have to be at surface level necessarily.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Something like the one at Saltburn-by-the-Sea?

Is that similar to the one at Shanklin on the Isle of Wight?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case, the viaduct is only ~33m tall.

Are we absolutely sure the valley side is untenable for trams that can manage 10% gradients like they do in Sheffield?

Especially as the tram station at the bus station does not have to be at surface level necessarily.

I can see no reason at all why a tram wouldn't be able to go up the A6. It is not that steep.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Something like the one at Saltburn-by-the-Sea?

Is that similar to the one at Shanklin on the Isle of Wight?

Possibly not. More like the one at Lynton and Lynmouth.

 

[Purple Orange]

So does building a bay platform (plenty of room at Vic anyway). At Pic, the Hadfields go nowhere near the problematic Pic - Deansgate section.



Glossop - Hadfield is certainly better suited as a national rail service, penetratingas it does into Derbyshire. A swift, half hourly electric service with plenty of capacity, and toilet facilities is ideally suited to it.

It’s not at all. We won’t agree on this clearly, but some stations along the line could see 10 tph while others see 5 tph, with better penetration of the city centre. That vs a 2 tph service on these lines. There is no competition.

Plus there is no chance of new bay platforms at Vic, even though they should be built. Making interventions like this, including NPR & HS2 will essentially clear Piccadilly platforms 1-12 for more intensive services on other lines. Same with the mythical bay platforms at Vic - they could be used for other services too.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s not at all. We won’t agree on this clearly, but some stations along the line could see 10 tph while others see 5 tph, with better penetration of the city centre. That vs a 2 tph service on these lines. There is no competition.

Plus there is no chance of new bay platforms at Vic, even though they should be built. Making interventions like this, including NPR & HS2 will essentially clear Piccadilly platforms 1-12 for more intensive services on other lines. Same with the mythical bay platforms at Vic - they could be used for other services too.

If it's anything like the Oldham loop line dawdling at low speed around city streets it won't be as good.

If you want slow and frequent, catch a bus.

 

[Purple Orange]

If it's anything like the Oldham loop line dawdling at low speed around city streets it won't be as good.

If you want slow and frequent, catch a bus.

I suspect most people in Greater Manchester would disagree with you on this given the huge popularity of metrolink.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suspect most people in Greater Manchester would disagree with you on this given the huge popularity of metrolink.

Especially the little scrotes in Wythenshawe who just hop on and off as it suits them without paying any fare....

 

[HSTEd]

The Glossop line is hardly an express railway anyway....

 

[supervc-10]

Eccles demonstrates very well just how British people dislike buses. It's slow and grinding, only running to Eccles to get EU Objective 1 funding - really it's a Salford Quays line. Yet it seems it has pretty comprehensively killed off most of the former fast (quicker than the tram) Eccles-Manchester bus service.

As someone who lives along said Eccles line... I much prefer the tram. Smoother ride, and cheaper than the bus if you're doing a return trip. The bus is a little bit quicker, but I only ever really take it when the tram isn't running for whatever reason.

 

[Purple Orange]

As someone who lives along said Eccles line... I much prefer the tram. Smoother ride, and cheaper than the bus if you're doing a return trip. The bus is a little bit quicker, but I only ever really take it when the tram isn't running for whatever reason.

As and when Burnham gets to implement regulated cheaper prices on the buses, would you consider switching? (If it is cheaper than the tram)

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not convinced there is such a huge demand for these journeys. The hourly express bus X5 from Sale to Stockport via the M56, introduced a few years ago, has been reduced to 4 return Mon-Fri peak hour journeys (2 am, 2 pm).

The bus service from Chorlton to Stockport (formerly route 16, becoming 316 in SlELNEC days) has never been especially frequent. I used to use it regularly for a year when I worked at Stepping Hill Hospital (which was then its terminus in Stockport) to travel to my late parents' house near Southern Cemetery. Metrolink (if it had existed then) would have been no potential substitute for this journey.

On 3 occasions I have parked at Parrs Wood Metrolink station to take the tram (changing at Cornbrook) to Hope Hospital for meetings, as the parking there is problematic, but it is slow, especially winding through Salford Quays. It won't be feasible to extend any Metrolink service from the proposed terminus adjacent to Stockport bus station to the railway station to enhance connectivity, as the latter is situated much higher (at the level of the viaduct).

I agree with @Xenophon that bus journeys from Altrincham to Stockport are slow and indirect. On the one occasion when I might have used it (because my Northern Rail connection from Stockport was cancelled), I investigated whether bus 11/11A would get me to Altrincham earlier, but ascertained that it would not and it would be quicker to wait for the next train. Bus 11 is useful though for travel from Altrincham to Wythenshawe Hospital, where parking is a nightmare.

An hourly express bus is no use for many because of the connecting time onto other local buses at each end, plus Sale to Stockport itself already has a faster connection with Stockport to Navigation Rd on train, then 3 stops to the centre of Sale on the Metrolink.
Alty to Stockport already has the train, that is not a pressing issue, but the intermediate journeys as you highlighted are slow on the bus. Many more would use a Stockport to Alty tram train because connections between the intermediate stops would be comparable with driving on the M60.
The bus from Chorlton to Stockport never had many passengers because it is too slow to compete with the M60 again. For your journey from Stepping Hill (next to Woodsmoor station) to near the Southern Cemetery (next to Withington tram stop), it would be 6 mins to Stockport, then max 5 mins from Stockport to Didsbury on the tram, plus today's timing of 7 mins from East Didsbury to Withington (18 mins plus Interchange timing in total).
Bus for that journey would take you at least 40 mins, 20 just to reach Stockport.
22mins by car, so the tram and train combo would win or at least be equivalent with wait time included.
Parrs Wood Metrolink is actually called East Didsbury slightly illogically, although I wonder why you didn't go from E Didsbury railway station into Mcr and change at Deansgate onto the Metrolink there, no one is suggesting it be used for longer journeys in GM.
Stockport Station and the new bus station are being connected by a travelator as part of the rebuilding, so Interchange time won't be a big issue in future.

 

[daodao]

An hourly express bus is no use for many because of the connecting time onto other local buses at each end, plus Sale to Stockport itself already has a faster connection with Stockport to Navigation Rd on train, then 3 stops to the centre of Sale on the Metrolink.
Alty to Stockport already has the train, that is not a pressing issue, but the intermediate journeys as you highlighted are slow on the bus. Many more would use a Stockport to Alty tram train because connections between the intermediate stops would be comparable with driving on the M60.

The Stockport to Navigation Rd train service is only hourly, so is of limited value for travelling from Stockport to Sale. I was merely pointing out that there is limited demand for public transport from Stockport to Sale, or on many orbital journeys. There is insufficient demand to justify creating Metrolink lines that purely serve an orbital function.

The bus from Chorlton to Stockport never had many passengers because it is too slow to compete with the M60 again. For your journey from Stepping Hill (next to Woodsmoor station) to near the Southern Cemetery (next to Withington tram stop), it would be 6 mins to Stockport, then max 5 mins from Stockport to Didsbury on the tram, plus today's timing of 7 mins from East Didsbury to Withington (18 mins plus Interchange timing in total).
Bus for that journey would take you at least 40 mins, 20 just to reach Stockport.
22mins by car, so the tram and train combo would win or at least be equivalent with wait time included.

The current bus service from Chorlton to Stockport via Didsbury (route 23) appears to have enough passengers to warrant a 15/20 minute frequency Mon-Sat daytime, although of course not all would be making end-to-end-journeys. It is not competing with the M60, as passengers who use the bus probably don't have access to a car. As for my journey from Stepping Hill direct to Southern Cemetery 40 years ago, the bus (route 316) was direct with just over 5 minutes walk at the Southern Cemetery end; the journey took about 45-50 minutes door-to-door. The Metrolink station on Princess Road (it is a misnomer to call it Withington) is at least 20 minutes walk from where my parents used to live, and Woodsmoor station was not open in 1981; it opened in 1990. Your quoted public transport journey time is completely unrealistic. The alternative now would be bus 192, changing to bus 23 in Stockport. Many prefer to use (slower) buses where rail/Metrolink stations are distant from where they want to travel.

Parrs Wood Metrolink is actually called East Didsbury slightly illogically, although I wonder why you didn't go from E Didsbury railway station into Mcr and change at Deansgate onto the Metrolink there, no one is suggesting it be used for longer journeys in GM.

It is much simpler, quicker and cheaper to change at Cornbrook to travel using Metrolink alone from Parrs Wood to Media City/Eccles, and the tram service on the South Manchester Metrolink line is every 6/12 minutes compared with an irregular and infrequent train service from East Didsbury to Manchester that generally doesn't run as far as [Knott Mill and] Deansgate station.

Stockport Station and the new bus station are being connected by a travelator as part of the rebuilding, so Interchange time won't be a big issue in future.

That is good to know. Since I sustained an injury while walking last summer, I would now have difficulty with the climb and especially descent between Stockport bus and rail stations.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The Stockport to Navigation Rd train service is only hourly, so is of limited value for travelling from Stockport to Sale. I was merely pointing out that there is limited demand for public transport from Stockport to Sale, or on many orbital journeys. There is insufficient demand to justify creating Metrolink lines that purely serve an orbital function.



The current bus service from Chorlton to Stockport via Didsbury (route 23) appears to have enough passengers to warrant a 15/20 minute frequency Mon-Sat daytime, although of course not all would be making end-to-end-journeys. It is not competing with the M60, as passengers who use the bus probably don't have access to a car. As for my journey from Stepping Hill direct to Southern Cemetery 40 years ago, the bus (route 316) was direct with just over 5 minutes walk at the Southern Cemetery end; the journey took about 45-50 minutes door-to-door. The Metrolink station on Princess Road (it is a misnomer to call it Withington) is at least 20 minutes walk from where my parents used to live, and Woodsmoor station was not open in 1981; it opened in 1990. Your quoted public transport journey time is completely unrealistic. The alternative now would be bus 192, changing to bus 23 in Stockport. Many prefer to use (slower) buses where rail/Metrolink stations are distant from where they want to travel.


It is much simpler, quicker and cheaper to change at Cornbrook to travel using Metrolink alone from Parrs Wood to Media City/Eccles, and the tram service on the South Manchester Metrolink line is every 6/12 minutes compared with an irregular and infrequent train service from East Didsbury to Manchester that generally doesn't run as far as [Knott Mill and] Deansgate station.


That is good to know. Since I sustained an injury while walking last summer, I would now have difficulty with the climb and especially descent between Stockport bus and rail stations.

Firstly, there is limited demand for public transport between the 2 areas because the current links are unsatisfactory in comparison with the M60. A direct and frequent link would be much more able to compete.
It wouldn't just be an orbital link from East Didsbury to Stockport either, a large chunk of South Mcr would have a better link to Stockport, making travel to Sheffield, London and the South, Buxton (and potentially Derby/Nottingham if Buxton to Bakewell is reopened) much easier.

Secondly, the vast majority of passengers on route 23 are just Stockport to East Didsbury- the journey times are just not competitive for bus services onto towards Chorlton.
Seems to be the other end of the Southern Cemetery you're talking about, my mistake.
You would still save at least 10 mins using the train and bus, especially today as you have that additional interchange off the 192 at Mersey Square to the bus station, plus the 192 is around 15 min slower than the train to Stockport. A lot has changed in GM since the 80s anyway.
Woodsmoor is adjacent to Stepping Hill, so no issue with distances there.

Thirdly, it may be easier for a person of limited mobility to utilise a simple tram interchange at Cornbrook. But it would be much faster for the able-bodied majority to board a fast and frequent service to Piccadilly from East Didsbury (9-14 mins), then a Eccles Line tram from Picc or a direct service to Eccles from Piccadilly (12 mins).
I am glad you feel more able to access the Interchange at Stockport now, the rebuilding has been long overdue and it delivers some green space, new housing and revitalises the Mersey, right in Stockport town centre - a very impressive scheme for an age of austerity.

It’s not at all. We won’t agree on this clearly, but some stations along the line could see 10 tph while others see 5 tph, with better penetration of the city centre. That vs a 2 tph service on these lines. There is no competition.

Plus there is no chance of new bay platforms at Vic, even though they should be built. Making interventions like this, including NPR & HS2 will essentially clear Piccadilly platforms 1-12 for more intensive services on other lines. Same with the mythical bay platforms at Vic - they could be used for other services too.

It isn't suitable for pure Metrolink- too far out for a journey that a large proportion will be making the whole way. The planned tram train from Ardwick to Salford Crescent/Cornbrook will provide for the Marple Rose Hill/New Mills Central via Reddish/Glossop services to be transferred to the tram tunnel. There is no capacity for Glossop/Rose Hill/NMC services to be added to Metrolink in the city centre without major investment for a 3rd surface city crossing- not what is wanted or needed.

 

[HSTEd]

It isn't suitable for pure Metrolink- too far out for a journey that a large proportion will be making the whole way. The planned tram train from Ardwick to Salford Crescent/Cornbrook will provide for the Marple Rose Hill/New Mills Central via Reddish/Glossop services to be transferred to the tram tunnel. There is no capacity for Glossop/Rose Hill/NMC services to be added to Metrolink in the city centre without major investment for a 3rd surface city crossing- not what is wanted or needed.

There are 10tph terminating at Picadilly as is, why can't they be extended to form the Rose Hill/Glossop?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are 10tph terminating at Picadilly as is, why can't they be extended to form the Rose Hill/Glossop?

That's exactly what will happen. A third city crossing would be required to add Atherton.

 

[daodao]

But it would be much faster for the able-bodied majority to board a fast and frequent service to Piccadilly from East Didsbury (9-14 mins), then a Eccles Line tram from Picc or a direct service to Eccles from Piccadilly (12 mins).

The tram takes about 15 minutes to travel from Piccadilly rail station to Cornbrook, and there is at least 5 minutes interchange time required at Piccadilly. It is quicker (as well as cheaper and more convenient) to travel by Metrolink the whole way from East Didsbury to Media City/Eccles by changing at Cornbrook. The East Didsbury to Piccadilly trains are irregular and infrequent.

There is no capacity for Glossop/Rose Hill/NMC services to be added to Metrolink in the city centre without major investment for a 3rd surface city crossing- not what is wanted or needed.

There is capacity for the Glossop/Rose Hill services to be connected to existing Metrolink services terminating at Piccadilly without any need for additional infrastructure in Manchester city centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's exactly what will happen. A third city crossing would be required to add Atherton.

Was not the Atherton heavy rail line mentioned this week in the Manchester Recovery Taskforce consultation as "being saved" ?