Metropolitan line fast / semi-fast train questions

[miklcct]

1. Do fast / semi-fast trains stop at Wembley Park? I'm confused that some say that they will stop, and some say that they won't stop. If I need Wembley Park on a southbound journey, can I board a fast or semi-fast train?

2. Don't fast / semi-fast trains only run on Mon - Fri peak hours in the peak direction? I wanted to travel to the country yesterday (Sunday) morning which I took a train to Harrow-on-the-Hill and waited for a train via Rickmansworth to come up. I waited for a very long time (more than 20 minutes) before a Chesham train turned up, and the driver announced that the next stop would be Moor Park (i.e. a fast train) which caused people running off the train with a Watford train coming close behind. To my knowledge there shouldn't be fast Metropolitan trains running on Sunday morning, although there may be fast Chiltern trains which run non-stop to Rickmansworth. The departure board at Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't show if the train is fast or all stations.

3. I suspect there are some passenger trains in peak hours in the timetable which don't call at all stations between Rickmansworth and Chalfont & Latimer and I find them confusing. Some even run non-stop from Marylebone to Amersham. Again, the departure board at Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't show the calling pattern of a train, how do I know if the train will stop at Rickmansworth in peak hours?

 

[higthomas]

I'm sure someone will give you a summary answer, but the working timetable (https://content.tfl.gov.uk/wtt-344-metropolitan-11-september-2022.pdf) will give you all the info you need and more.

The Watford and Amersham/Chesham Tube guide will also help you in a possibly more usable form (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/watford-guide-11sept22.pdf & https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/amersham-tube-guide-3-oct-22-dec-2022.pdf).

 

[Mojo]

1. Do fast / semi-fast trains stop at Wembley Park? I'm confused that some say that they will stop, and some say that they won't stop. If I need Wembley Park on a southbound journey, can I board a fast or semi-fast train?

As per timetable, Northbound Fast / Semi-fast trains call at Wembley Park whereas Southbound do not. During periods of late running whether trains call at Wembley Park or not is at the discretion of the Service Controller although typically they would run all Southbound trains as non-stop regardless of the delay due to capacity reasons and the fact that platform 6 is only typically used in the early mornings.

2. Don't fast / semi-fast trains only run on Mon - Fri peak hours in the peak direction? I wanted to travel to the country yesterday (Sunday) morning which I took a train to Harrow-on-the-Hill and waited for a train via Rickmansworth to come up. I waited for a very long time (more than 20 minutes) before a Chesham train turned up, and the driver announced that the next stop would be Moor Park (i.e. a fast train) which caused people running off the train with a Watford train coming close behind. To my knowledge there shouldn't be fast Metropolitan trains running on Sunday morning, although there may be fast Chiltern trains which run non-stop to Rickmansworth. The departure board at Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't show if the train is fast or all stations.

No, there are loads of Semi-fast trains for example in the early mornings in the Northbound direction. During hot weather a plan is implemented at Harrow on the Hill to minimise points usage whereby all Amersham / Chesham trains operate Semi-fast in the Northbound direction. You will also have service disruption whereby trains might run Fast or Semi-fast to get the service back to timetable.

3. I suspect there are some passenger trains in peak hours in the timetable which don't call at all stations between Rickmansworth and Chalfont & Latimer and I find them confusing. Some even run non-stop from Marylebone to Amersham. Again, the departure board at Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't show the calling pattern of a train, how do I know if the train will stop at Rickmansworth in peak hours?

All LU trains to Amersham or Chesham call at Rickmansworth, it is only certain Chiltern trains that are non-stop Rickmansworth as the trains are too long for the platform. As you point out there are also some trains that are non-stop between Amersham and Marylebone, and there are even some evening peak departures that are non-stop from Marylebone to Great Missenden. Details of these are conveyed in Chiltern Railways timetables and on announcements.

 

[BoroAndy]

Back in the 1980s it was much simpler, or at least seemed to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the board there faulty? They used to show calling points on the second line for Met services.

 

[Ken H]

Back in the 1980s it was much simpler, or at least seemed to be.

There is a 1979 and a 1981 met timetable on timetable world. Here is link to 1979 one.

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

Its not a WTT as per the index. I have told TTW about that.

 

[n4dave]

1. Do fast / semi-fast trains stop at Wembley Park? I'm confused that some say that they will stop, and some say that they won't stop. If I need Wembley Park on a southbound journey, can I board a fast or semi-fast train?

2. Don't fast / semi-fast trains only run on Mon - Fri peak hours in the peak direction? I wanted to travel to the country yesterday (Sunday) morning which I took a train to Harrow-on-the-Hill and waited for a train via Rickmansworth to come up. I waited for a very long time (more than 20 minutes) before a Chesham train turned up, and the driver announced that the next stop would be Moor Park (i.e. a fast train) which caused people running off the train with a Watford train coming close behind. To my knowledge there shouldn't be fast Metropolitan trains running on Sunday morning, although there may be fast Chiltern trains which run non-stop to Rickmansworth. The departure board at Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't show if the train is fast or all stations.

3. I suspect there are some passenger trains in peak hours in the timetable which don't call at all stations between Rickmansworth and Chalfont & Latimer and I find them confusing. Some even run non-stop from Marylebone to Amersham. Again, the departure board at Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't show the calling pattern of a train, how do I know if the train will stop at Rickmansworth in peak hours?

So as a Train Op on the Metropolitan line I can answer most of your questions..
In the morning rush hour, the next station after Harrow-On-The-Hill southbound for a Fast or Semi Fast will be Finchley Road.
If you travel on the Chesham or Amersham branch towards London the Fast trains will stop at Moor Park , Harrow then Finchley Road , the Semi-Fast serves all stations to Harrow then fast to Finchley Road.
Other times if the train is running late then the line controller will usually ask the driver to run fast from Harrow next stop Finchley Road to make up a few minutes.
So if you require Wembley Park you need to be on an All stations service towards Aldgate or Baker Street so you may need to change at Harrow.

 

[GS250]

Back in the 1980s it was much simpler, or at least seemed to be.

I believe part of the issue with the newer S stock was the former Chesham shuttle service. Apparently the units couldn't be scaled down to a 4 car?

 

[miklcct]

So as a Train Op on the Metropolitan line I can answer most of your questions..
In the morning rush hour, the next station after Harrow-On-The-Hill southbound for a Fast or Semi Fast will be Finchley Road.
If you travel on the Chesham or Amersham branch towards London the Fast trains will stop at Moor Park , Harrow then Finchley Road , the Semi-Fast serves all stations to Harrow then fast to Finchley Road.
Other times if the train is running late then the line controller will usually ask the driver to run fast from Harrow next stop Finchley Road to make up a few minutes.
So if you require Wembley Park you need to be on an All stations service towards Aldgate or Baker Street so you may need to change at Harrow.

So why did the Chesham train I was on run fast despite that it was at a very quiet time on Sunday morning?

 

[Mojo]

So why did the Chesham train I was on run fast despite that it was at a very quiet time on Sunday morning?

Trains run as Fast and Semi-fast either because the service is disrupted and as part of service recovery, or in the mornings because there are lots of trains coming out of the depot and it is the best use of capacity.

 

[rebmcr]

I believe part of the issue with the newer S stock was the former Chesham shuttle service. Apparently the units couldn't be scaled down to a 4 car?

They are already 4-car half-sets with single cabs (though they do always remain coupled with their sequential counterpart). It just wasn't economical to have two-cab versions manufactured, which could never be used as part of the wider fleet.

 

[Dstock7080]

They are already 4-car half-sets with single cabs (though they do always remain coupled with their sequential counterpart). It just wasn't economical to have two-cab versions manufactured, which could never be used as part of the wider fleet.

S Stock are not 4-car units that can be divided outside of depots, unlike 2009 Stock which has auto-couplers in the middle, S Stock are fixed formations.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Depending on your journey and location, readers will be pleased/disappointed to read that a long-standing points issue at Harrow, which was the cause of off-peak semi-fast Amersham/Chesham trains for the last few months, was resolved overnight with all routes returned to use.

Of course, as noted by esteemed colleagues, sporadic fast/semi-fast services will continue as part of usual service recovery methods. Whilst it is unusual for southbound fast trains to stop at Wembley it isn't unheard of - likewise northbound trains can still non-stop Wembley if required. 'Unusual' patterns such as fast Watford have also been known to operate where necessary.

Whilst there is currently a fault with some of the train describers at Harrow prior to trains arriving (this mainly affects predictions), stopping patterns should still be displayed once the appropriate train description has stepped to the platform track, or been manually set-up by the signaller.

 

[rebmcr]

S Stock are not 4-car units that can be divided outside of depots, unlike 2009 Stock which has auto-couplers in the middle, S Stock are fixed formations.

Indeed, but the two halves are self-contained with their own compressors, transformers, etc — and thus mean that "an inability to scale equipment down to a 4-car length" was not the reason for discontinuing the Chesham Shuttle.

 

[A60stock]

Depending on your journey and location, readers will be pleased/disappointed to read that a long-standing points issue at Harrow, which was the cause of off-peak semi-fast Amersham/Chesham trains for the last few months, was resolved overnight with all routes returned to use.

Of course, as noted by esteemed colleagues, sporadic fast/semi-fast services will continue as part of usual service recovery methods. Whilst it is unusual for southbound fast trains to stop at Wembley it isn't unheard of - likewise northbound trains can still non-stop Wembley if required. 'Unusual' patterns such as fast Watford have also been known to operate where necessary.

Whilst there is currently a fault with some of the train describers at Harrow prior to trains arriving (this mainly affects predictions), stopping patterns should still be displayed once the appropriate train description has stepped to the platform track, or been manually set-up by the signaller.

Never heard of a fast Watford or seen one in my 30 years of using the Met. Has this ever happened and can the displays on both platforms and trains show this?

 

[GS250]

Indeed, but the two halves are self-contained with their own compressors, transformers, etc — and thus mean that "an inability to scale equipment down to a 4-car length" was not the reason for discontinuing the Chesham Shuttle.

So technically very possible. Just not seen as economical or able to deliver the benefits worth the investment. Thanks for the clarification here.

I suppose giving Chesham a half hourly direct service to London was seen as as something of a political win. Even if outside of the peak hours these would be declassified to 'slow trains'. I guess the time needed not to change trains was a gain, but the slowing down to change lines West of Moor Park (sometimes stopping at a red) and calling at all intermediate stations to Finchley Road is quite a big loss. The biggest winner here surely the Chiltern line which must have seen increased patronage after the new timetable.

Never heard of a fast Watford or seen one in my 30 years of using the Met. Has this ever happened and can the displays on both platforms and trains show this?

It would surely have to run on the 'slow' lines West of Harrow on the Hill? Unless there was some engineering works going on with a planned reversal at Rickmansworth? 'Fast' services do run on the slow lines (after points failures etc) though although I'm not sure whether they career along through the platforms at 50mph?

Its always been semi-conjecture (often from those who work at TFL) that there was a feeling the Met line wanted to give up the fast lines West of Harrow on the Hill. This allowing all costs to be covered by Network Rail purely for the Chiltern line. However, even with the present timetable this would have potential to cause some severe problems during the peak hours. Also, the 'fast' lines, on either side of Harrow are used randomly for playing 'catch up' or for the provision of services during engineering works. I can only hope such nonsense was ever taken seriously.

 

[Kilopylae]

Its always been semi-conjecture (often from those who work at TFL) that there was a feeling the Met line wanted to give up the fast lines West of Harrow on the Hill. This allowing all costs to be covered by Network Rail purely for the Chiltern line. However, even with the present timetable this would have potential to cause some severe problems during the peak hours. Also, the 'fast' lines, on either side of Harrow are used randomly for playing 'catch up' or for the provision of services during engineering works. I can only hope such nonsense was ever taken seriously.

Ending the fast service from Amersham/Chesham would leave the all stations peak services which would presumably be run instead carrying a lot of fresh air, as commuters would have no reason to use LU rather than Chiltern. So unless the Met line was going to run exclusively to Watford and Uxbridge, it's hard to see this being economical.

 

[GS250]

Ending the fast service from Amersham/Chesham would leave the all stations peak services which would presumably be run instead carrying a lot of fresh air, as commuters would have no reason to use LU rather than Chiltern. So unless the Met line was going to run exclusively to Watford and Uxbridge, it's hard to see this being economical.

The only issue there is that Chiltern don't stop some of their peak hour trains at the intermediate stations between Marylebone and Amersham. In fact one may exclude even Amersham.

It may have even been a topic of debate in a Roger Ford article about 20 years ago. Someone, somewhere within TFL had decided that the met line needed to be brought into compliance with every other tube line and simplifying (saving money). Forgetting of course that the Piccadilly Line has a 'fast' section. If anything the Met line was possibly a blue print of what some of the other lines should have implemented from the off. Similar to the New York Subway with its fast and stopping services running in parallel along the same route.

 

[DavyCrocket]

The reason for turning off peak fast trains to alls rations was to provide additional trains for North Harrow to Moor Park, increase services to Uxbridge and reduce to other branches. This was a mayoral matter (unsure if there is decision to back this up) and was designed to support members of same party in seats like Pinner

 

[bluegoblin7]

Never heard of a fast Watford or seen one in my 30 years of using the Met. Has this ever happened and can the displays on both platforms and trains show this?

It would surely have to run on the 'slow' lines West of Harrow on the Hill? Unless there was some engineering works going on with a planned reversal at Rickmansworth? 'Fast' services do run on the slow lines (after points failures etc) though although I'm not sure whether they career along through the platforms at 50mph?

No codes on trains or stations, but manual announcements can be made if necessary. It isn't common but I've done it a few times as part of service recovery.

Line speed is permitted through the platforms between North Harrow and Northwood inclusive on the local lines, and occurs regularly by running 'fast up the local'.

For clarity, services towards Amersham/Chesham/Watford are considered 'north' of Harrow, with line designations etc. all being north/south. Between Wembley Park and Harrow lines are designated Fast and Local, between Harrow and Watford South Junction lines are designated Main and Local (with pairing also switched from by direction to by use).

 

[GS250]

Line speed is permitted through the platforms between North Harrow and Northwood inclusive on the local lines, and occurs regularly by running 'fast up the local'.

So realistically a fast service to Amersham/Chesham would only lose 1-2 minutes to Moor Park. Especially if it doesn't have to traverse the Junction between HoH and North Harrow. The issues for me occur when it has to cross to the fast lines just after Moor Park. Not only does it have to slow down to about 20mph but quite often it comes to a standstill awaiting the correct path. Isn't this a relatively new junction too? Would probably lose a good 3-4 minutes on a fast leaving Harrow on the down fast platform that the Chilterns use.

And the above is if it doesn't catch up with a stopper en route to Moor Park!

 

[Kilopylae]

And the above is if it doesn't catch up with a stopper en route to Moor Park!

Couldn't control just 'swap' them using "This train has changed" announcements and an instruction on the train in front for passengers to leave the train at the next station and board the one behind if they require Northwood (or wherever)? — or is this too annoying for passengers who boarded expecting a fast train and ended up 'demoted' to a slow one?

 

[philthetube]

I believe part of the issue with the newer S stock was the former Chesham shuttle service. Apparently the units couldn't be scaled down to a 4 car?

It surprised everyone how well the 8 car trains to Chesham has worked, the single track was expected to cause many more problems than it did.

Indeed, but the two halves are self-contained with their own compressors, transformers, etc — and thus mean that "an inability to scale equipment down to a 4-car length" was not the reason for discontinuing the Chesham Shuttle.

correct and when defect handling the train can have both air and/or electrics isolated and driven from the good unit, using two drivers if needed.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Couldn't control just 'swap' them using "This train has changed" announcements and an instruction on the train in front for passengers to leave the train at the next station and board the one behind if they require Northwood (or wherever)? — or is this too annoying for passengers who boarded expecting a fast train and ended up 'demoted' to a slow one?

Trains will be reformed where this has a better overall impact on the service, but it isn't a trivial task. Indeed - in cases where this would be a problem, the driver for the fast train will be stuck behind the all stations service, so you won't actually have a driver to take the initial train forwards.

So realistically a fast service to Amersham/Chesham would only lose 1-2 minutes to Moor Park. Especially if it doesn't have to traverse the Junction between HoH and North Harrow. The issues for me occur when it has to cross to the fast lines just after Moor Park. Not only does it have to slow down to about 20mph but quite often it comes to a standstill awaiting the correct path. Isn't this a relatively new junction too? Would probably lose a good 3-4 minutes on a fast leaving Harrow on the down fast platform that the Chilterns use.

In practice, providing trains get a clear run up the Local, the difference between running Local or Main is negligible. All three junctions onto the Main are speed restricted to varying degrees - a combination of geometry and signalling reasons. The delay is greater if trains are 'stuck' behind an all stations service, but even this is negligible if everything is running to time, because of how services are timetabled - fast trains will generally be given priority when leaving Harrow, even if it means a small delay to the all stations services. The biggest impact on Fast/Semi/All stations services is wider disruption coming out of the City. It is entirely possible to push through the entire service with minimal additional delay without using the Main lines where everything is to time.

Not sure what you're referring to by 'the down fast platform' however?

 

[stuu]

Not sure what you're referring to by 'the down fast platform' however?

Platform 1 at HotH I would assume

 

[GS250]

Platform 1 at HotH I would assume

Yep. When I last looked the old GCR 'Main Line Trains' sign was still proudly in place too. Don't think they'll ever be getting rid of that. The 'Marylebone only' sign though on platform 2 has been taken down though.

 

[MichaelAMW]

1. Do fast / semi-fast trains stop at Wembley Park? I'm confused that some say that they will stop, and some say that they won't stop. If I need Wembley Park on a southbound journey, can I board a fast or semi-fast train?

I can't recall what my source was, but at some stage I was led to believe that, once fasts and semi-fasts were confined to the rush hour in the peak-flow direction only (as discussed extensively above), all down trains pm would call at Wembley so that there was no need to have a special service when there were events on there. As there aren't events at 8am that will produce large footfall, running fast through Wembley in the morning is still sensible.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Platform 1 at HotH I would assume

So the northbound Main.

Up/Down terminology does not and has not applied to the Met, using it in a conversation is misleading and incorrect.

 

[Bikeman78]

It would surely have to run on the 'slow' lines West of Harrow on the Hill? Unless there was some engineering works going on with a planned reversal at Rickmansworth? 'Fast' services do run on the slow lines (after points failures etc) though although I'm not sure whether they career along through the platforms at 50mph?

I have once been on a fast train from Moor Park to Harrow on the slow line. This was back in the days of A stock. I was waiting on the fast line and saw it roll in on the slow line platform. The only way I knew it was the fast was by looking at the diagram number displayed on the front so I had to run through the subway. I don't recall it running slowly through the stations. From memory they belt through the fast line platforms at Wembley Park.

 

[notverydeep]

Indeed, but the two halves are self-contained with their own compressors, transformers, etc — and thus mean that "an inability to scale equipment down to a 4-car length" was not the reason for discontinuing the Chesham Shuttle.

Several options were raised as possibilities for the Chesham shuttle for the Subsurface Upgrade including full length or shortened S8s - we even looked at 3 car D stock or hired in DMUs, but the simplest, cheapest and most benefitial option was simply to divert two of the then four off peak Amersham trains per hour to Chesham. As these trains have the same round trip time to Chesham as Amersham (just a slightly shorter layover), this saved the Train Operators and the extra S Stock set (4 or 8 car) that would have been needed for a seperate Chesham operation, plus the maintenance and renewal of a small bit of infrastructure around the bay platform at Chalfont could also be saved. In business case terms, it proved to be a bit of a no-brainer. But as well as the cost saving, it made things better overall as the passengers from Chesham saved more total time nolonger interchanging than the extra time for Amersham (where the off peak frequency is slightly lower in consequence) and thus increased the revenue generated.