Mid Cheshire Line

[Andrew090565]

Can someone explain to me why the line from Chester to Manchester via Northwich has such an appalling service? The provision of one 4 ( sometimes 2) car train on a Sunday is a disgrace. The journey times, routing on a single track from Northenden to Stockport are also unacceptable
What is being done to address this issue and many others like it?

I think I can guess the answer

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The journey times, routing on a single track from Northenden to Stockport are also unacceptable

Think the two and a quarter mile section of line, from Sharston Junction to Cheadle Village Junction, was singled back in the 1970s, to facilitate the building of what's now the M60 motorway. Of course, at the time, most passenger rail traffic to/from the Mid Cheshire line would have been routed via Sale, rather than via Northenden, which ended with the coming of the Metrolink tram system in the early 1990s.

Does then beg the question as to whether there is still space in the locality for reinstatement of double track between Sharston and Gatley, and, if so, what the potential Mid Cheshire line passenger train service improvement would be, if double track was re-instated.

The provision of one 4 ( sometimes 2) car train on a Sunday is a disgrace.

That can indeed be sub-optimal, particularly so on Sundays, when the usual service provision is just 1tp2h.

Have also been puzzled by Northern allocating four car trains on to the Mid Cheshire line, comprising 150 and 156 units joined together, but with the one (or maybe two?) of the rearmost carriages locked out of use, which doesn't seem to be the best use of limited resources, but perhaps it is?! Is this still the case in 2024?

 

[setdown]

It also appears to be one of the lines which the Class 195s don't grace. I understand it's down to some sort of gauging issue? However there is a video on Youtube of an out-of-service unit absolutely flying through Northwich, so I assume it fits well there!

The acceleration profile of the 195 could improve services, in the context of the infrastructure being unlikely to change in the future.

 

[jfollows]

It also appears to be one of the lines which the Class 195s don't grace. I understand it's down to some sort of gauging issue? However there is a video on Youtube of an out-of-service unit absolutely flying through Northwich, so I assume it fits well there!

The acceleration profile of the 195 could improve services, in the context of the infrastructure being unlikely to change in the future.

Sectional Appendix (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...ern (North) Sectional Appendix March 2024.pdf) says “Prohibited between Hale and Mickle Trafford Junction” (I think, because there’s a typo).

 

[snowball]

Does then beg the question as to whether there is still space in the locality for reinstatement of double track between Sharston and Gatley,

I think the constraints are the two single-track bridges (one over the slip road east of the A34, and the western bridge over Roscoes' roundabout). Also the proposed 1-platform Cheadle station would have to be built differently from the current proposal.

 

[The Planner]

Can someone explain to me why the line from Chester to Manchester via Northwich has such an appalling service? The provision of one 4 ( sometimes 2) car train on a Sunday is a disgrace. The journey times, routing on a single track from Northenden to Stockport are also unacceptable
What is being done to address this issue and many others like it?

I think I can guess the answer

Why is the routing on a single track an issue? Its a 2 minute section. There are 13 stops between Chester and Stockport, all of which are relatively close together, so journey times aren't going to decrease to any great extent.

 

[Andrew090565]

All points taken but why is the frequency of the service so bad? This route serves two major towns, Delamere Forest and needs to be increased especially on a Sunday.

My point about single track came from being delayed at Stockport waiting for a Rubbish Train and the excessive amount of time it takes to get from Altrincham and stations beyond to Manchester. I wondered whether this track issue and that between Alti and Navigation Rd had anything to do with frequency of services?

If a stop at Cheadle is proposed this will only add more time to an already tedious journey

 

[Prime586]

I think the constraints are the two single-track bridges (one over the slip road east of the A34, and the western bridge over Roscoes' roundabout). Also the proposed 1-platform Cheadle station would have to be built differently from the current proposal.

The A34 sliproad bridge abutments at least look like they were designed to be able to carry a double track bridge deck if the need arose in the future. The newer bridge of the two at Roscoe's roundabout certainly can't though, which was a rather short sighted descision made back when the M63 junction was built and the roundabout created (which was around the same time that SELNEC and the GMCC were proposing the local rail system that would have used the Picc-Vic tunnel).

 

[catfordbags]

Of course the mid cheshire would be a different proposition if we were capable of building 3 miles of track into the airport.........

 

[The Planner]

All points taken but why is the frequency of the service so bad? This route serves two major towns, Delamere Forest and needs to be increased especially on a Sunday.

My point about single track came from being delayed at Stockport waiting for a Rubbish Train and the excessive amount of time it takes to get from Altrincham and stations beyond to Manchester. I wondered whether this track issue and that between Alti and Navigation Rd had anything to do with frequency of services?

If a stop at Cheadle is proposed this will only add more time to an already tedious journey

No, its still a short section of ½ mile. The curve at Deansgate you can't do anything about, 75mph from there to Northenden, a bit of 50mph, more 75mph then the 20mph at Edgeley which you can't do anything about. The rest is 60mph, but as mentioned before, the stations are so close together it makes no difference unless they are non-stop.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What are the key ongoing issues with service frequency on the Mid Cheshire line?

Would a half-hourly frequency ever be possible during the week, or is the absence of available paths at certain times of the day on the section between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport an insuperable problem, not helped by the single track pinch points between Stockport and Navigation Road and possibly also the four mile single track section beyond Mouldsworth towards Chester?

Guess that having to allow paths for freight traffic can't help either.

Isn't there still some issue on the Mid Cheshire with suitable rolling stock availability? And would hourly passenger trains on Sundays ever be practicable?

 

[Jamesrob637]

This line was promised hourly on Sundays back in the mid-10s. Shameful that nothing has been done about the Sierra Hotel India Tango Sunday service, in the intervening nearly a decade!

 

[daodao]

Can someone explain to me why the line from Chester to Manchester via Northwich has such an appalling service?

There is an hourly dmu service (2 hourly on Sundays) which is adequate for the limited traffic in this semi-rural area, except at peak hours when some additional trains are provided. It was the existence of the stone traffic from the Peak District to the chemical works in Northwich that saved the line in the 1960s, and its subsequent use for other freight traffic east of the WCML has prevented its subsequent closure. The line is at the back of the queue for enhancements; people should be grateful that it still exists.

 

[Rail Quest]

I travel on the line frequently which is annoying because its one of my least favourite on the Northern network. I think the single track sections all contribute to a bottleneck, particularly the section through Navigation road given how long it takes freight trains to crawl through and the fact that any Northern service has to stop at the station.

As for journey times, I imagine the service would be a lot quicker if it was able to run express down what is now the metrolink, though, I doubt that'll ever happen in any form.

Sectional Appendix (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 24/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix March 2024.pdf) says “Prohibited between Hale and Mickle Trafford Junction” (I think, because there’s a typo).

I really don't like the use of sprinters on the line either (which, TBF, is how I feel about any route those trains are used on) given how slow, uncomfortable, and loud they are. A change of traction would be the only easy(ish) way of improving the service but that sounds like its not happening if the only real alternative (195s) are not allowed down it for whatever reason (I'd love to know the reason for this)

It's a shame because Northwich/Greenbank and Knutsford are pretty large towns that deserve a better service frankly.

except at peak hours when some additional trains are provided

These additional services (particularly the morning ones) are very frequently cancelled via P-coded cancellations. I've never been able to rely on them.

 

[daodao]

These additional services (particularly the morning ones) are very frequently cancelled via P-coded cancellations. I've never been able to rely on them.

I am aware of this, having been delayed at Stockport by just such a cancelled train in 2019, for which I was able to claim delay repay for arriving 34 minutes late at Altrincham.

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Once been on the line as a tourist for a change of route Chester-Manchester.

The redeeming feature is Delamere, I should have got off there for a walk having just gone through the luverly Forest.

 

[Trainman40083]

I am sure I read somewhere, that a limiting factor on the service is lack of capacity between Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly. Then there is the single line sections, also Navigation Road? Add in freight along the line, a key route for Biomass and limestone trains. Now someone mentioned a carriage locked out on a four car service. That suggests some platforms might not be long enough for 4 car trains (no idea if so, or where). But if no selective door opening, the carriage is locked out. Suggests either less trains are run into Manchester to improve reliability or lack of units.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Now someone mentioned a carriage locked out on a four car service. That suggests some platforms might not be long enough for 4 car trains (no idea if so, or where).

Possibly Mouldsworth, on the Chester bound platform?

 

[Trainman40083]

Possibly Mouldsworth, on the Chester bound platform?

If so, the line is limited to length of unit by station/s on the route and limited by capacity by single line sections, freight plus sheer lack of capacity approaching Manchester. I suppose, had there been a south facing bay at Stockport, there could have been a Stockport terminator.

 

[Greybeard33]

Possibly Mouldsworth, on the Chester bound platform?

According to the SA, Mouldsworth Down platform (Chester bound) is only 55m, so too short for any 4-car formation. Mouldsworth Up, Delamere Up and Down, Cuddington Down and Greenbank Up and Down are all too short for a 86m 156+150 combo. Several of these are 77-79m, so marginal for a 80m 4*150 with doors at thirds.

 

[Trainman40083]

According to the SA, Mouldsworth Down platform (Chester bound) is only 55m, so too short for any 4-car formation. Mouldsworth Up, Delamere Up and Down, Cuddington Down and Greenbank Up and Down are all too short for a 86m 156+150 combo. Several of these are 77-79m, so marginal for a 80m 4*150 with doors at thirds.

Thanks for that. That answers why coaches are locked out on 4 car trains.

 

[Llandudno]

Could they not operate 2 trains per hour, assuming there is enough staff(!)
Chester - Piccadilly semi-fast (omitting Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington, Plumley, Lostock Gralam & Ashley)
Chester - Altrincham all stations giving connections into Metrolink and the following semi-fast

 

[Krokodil]

Aren't the farm crossings the reason for the failure to increase the service frequency?

 

[Rail Quest]

Chester - Piccadilly semi-fast (omitting Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington, Plumley, Lostock Gralam & Ashley)
Chester - Altrincham all stations giving connections into Metrolink and the following semi-fast

I was thinking something similar. My suggestion would be something like
Chester - Piccadilly semi-fast (but instead omitting Lostock Gralam, Plumley, Mobberley, Ashley and Hale)
Northwich - Altrincham or Stockport (all stops)
This would mean longer distance passengers could skip the barely used Plumley/Mobberley with a not-so-insignificant reduction in frequency. The only controversial picks here are missing out LG and Hale. I'd omit these from the semi-fasts to maintain momentum

I suppose we're in Speculative territory now

 

[jfollows]

The farm crossings on the Mid Cheshire are being addressed by better safety measures (two are already done, maybe all three) so the risk assessment should change.

Aren't the farm crossings the reason for the failure to increase the service frequency?

That was also my recollection, but the first quote above from February implies that the problem is being resolved.

 

[Trainman40083]

I was thinking something similar. My suggestion would be something like
Chester - Piccadilly semi-fast (but instead omitting Lostock Gralam, Plumley, Mobberley, Ashley and Hale)
Northwich - Altrincham or Stockport (all stops)
This would mean longer distance passengers could skip the barely used Plumley/Mobberley with a not-so-insignificant reduction in frequency. The only controversial picks here are missing out LG and Hale. I'd omit these from the semi-fasts to maintain momentum

I suppose we're in Speculative territory now

Is there capacity at Altrincham or Stockport for a terminating train? Turn back sidings, signalling etc?

 

[jfollows]

Is there capacity at Altrincham or Stockport for a terminating train? Turn back sidings, signalling etc?

Not at Stockport. Reverse over the viaduct (not practical) or run to Longsight (or Newton Heath) and back (too far).
Stockport layout: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heaton-norris-denton-signals.258549/#post-6538505
Altrincham platform 3 has DJ25:

EDIT At Stockport it would be possible to reverse on the Denton line after Heaton Norris Junction but I understand there are no paths for this across the junction.

 

[Northerngirl]

Don't some of the evening services start at Stockport currently

 

[jfollows]

Don't some of the evening services start at Stockport currently

Empty from Longsight I think.
Empty from Hazel Grove (5H53) with reverse at ST2 116/118 (down fast over viaduct).
Not ideal but it can be done - probably not hourly I’d guess, though.
The other one comes empty from Newton Heath.

 

[Rail Ranger]

We're told there are no spare paths between Stockport and Piccadilly yet the Hope Valley locals have been diverted via Stockport.