Middlesbrough to Kings Cross Direct Service Planned for 2020

[Darandio]

thanks - no memory of that! I thought they both called at Eaglescliffe (for Yarm)

It's more interesting than I thought, certainly in 1986. Down service was pick up only at both Stevenage and Peterborough and set down only at Eaglescliffe.

London Kings Cross 16:30
Stevenage 16:50u
Peterborough 17:23u
Newark North Gate 17:55
York 18:49
Northallerton 19:10
Eaglescliffe 19:26s
Middlesbrough 19:41
Stockton 19:58
Hartlepool 20:14
Sunderland 20:38
Newcastle 21:07

 

[backontrack]

It's more interesting than I thought, certainly in 1986. Down service was pick up only at both Stevenage and Peterborough and set down only at Eaglescliffe.

London Kings Cross 16:30
Stevenage 16:50u
Peterborough 17:23u
Newark North Gate 17:55
York 18:49
Northallerton 19:10
Eaglescliffe 19:26s
Middlesbrough 19:41
Stockton 19:58
Hartlepool 20:14
Sunderland 20:38
Newcastle 21:07

Newark to York non-stop is a bit of a rarity! Cheers.

 

[FQTV]

It's more interesting than I thought, certainly in 1986. Down service was pick up only at both Stevenage and Peterborough and set down only at Eaglescliffe.

London Kings Cross 16:30
Stevenage 16:50u
Peterborough 17:23u
Newark North Gate 17:55
York 18:49
Northallerton 19:10
Eaglescliffe 19:26s
Middlesbrough 19:41
Stockton 19:58
Hartlepool 20:14
Sunderland 20:38
Newcastle 21:07

Yes, and Eaglescliffe was pick up only on the up, at just after 0700.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, The Cleveland Executive ran once a day in each direction. It commenced in the Up direction at Newcastle, via the Durham Coast through Sunderland, Hartlepool and Stockton, reversing at Middlesbrough and thence Eaglescliffe, Northallerton, York and Stevenage.

In the Down direction it also called at Newark.

2h46m from Eaglescliffe to London King's Cross in the 1980s as a datum; latterly 2h39m with Grand Central including an additional Thirsk call but omitting Stevenage and Newark.

There was a Durham coast service - up to KX early morning, down ex KX c 16.30 - even in steam days. I'm pretty sure it didn't serve Middlesbrough. must have stopped at Thornaby, I think.

I remember seeing it one sunny summer evening in 62 or 63 at Blackhall Rocks behind a V2. I can't remember if it continued working during the Cl 47/55 era. Use of HSTs mean it could reverse relatively easily and run into Middlebrough, of course.

 

[HST43257]

If anyone’s wondering, from December 2021, LNER are set to operate a train every 2 hours from London King’s Cross to Middlesbrough. As far as I’m aware, it won’t split or join from anything at any location. The service will call at:

London Kings Cross
Peterborough
York
Northallerton
Middlesbrough

There are currently no specifications as to whether it will be a 5 or 9 car Class 800 Azuma but yeah that’s the planned calling pattern. From December 2021 a lot of big changes will be made. York will no longer get an off peak service to Retford, with the London - York stopper being taken out but a replacement London - Newcastle stopper will come in, stopping everywhere except Peterborough (every 2 hours), Retford (all the time), Northallerton (most hours) and Durham (every 2 hours). The London - Edinburgh normal fast LNER service will be sped up. This will be done by taking out stops at Darlington and Berwick (every hour for each). The Harrogate LNER service via Leeds might be via Hambleton Jn, avoiding Wakefield Westgate. This will mean that Harrogate trains isn’t have to reverse. There will be 2 other trains per hour via Wakefield Westgate though, meaning Leeds gets 2-3 trains per hour instead of 2. There will be a service increase all round, though the Aberdeen and Inverness trains will not be part of the KGX, YRK, NCL & EDB service. They will be part of a slower service calling at:

London Kings Cross
Peterborough
Doncaster
York
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle
Berwick
Edinburgh

As well as other changes
Hope this helps

 

[FQTV]

There was a Durham coast service - up to KX early morning, down ex KX c 16.30 - even in steam days. I'm pretty sure it didn't serve Middlesbrough. must have stopped at Thornaby, I think.

I remember seeing it one sunny summer evening in 62 or 63 at Blackhall Rocks behind a V2. I can't remember if it continued working during the Cl 47/55 era. Use of HSTs mean it could reverse relatively easily and run into Middlebrough, of course.

From what I can divine, there must have been a fairly lengthy hiatus between the steam hauled services, and the resumption with an HST.

A letter to Modern Railway in the late 1970s suggests that there’d long been no service from Teesside and, at that point, apparently no imminent expectation of there being one.

If anyone’s wondering, from December 2021, LNER are set to operate a train every 2 hours from London King’s Cross to Middlesbrough. As far as I’m aware, it won’t split or join from anything at any location. The service will call at:

London Kings Cross
Peterborough
York
Northallerton
Middlesbrough

There are currently no specifications as to whether it will be a 5 or 9 car Class 800 Azuma but yeah that’s the planned calling pattern. From December 2021 a lot of big changes will be made. York will no longer get an off peak service to Retford, with the London - York stopper being taken out but a replacement London - Newcastle stopper will come in, stopping everywhere except Peterborough (every 2 hours), Retford (all the time), Northallerton (most hours) and Durham (every 2 hours). The London - Edinburgh normal fast LNER service will be sped up. This will be done by taking out stops at Darlington and Berwick (every hour for each). The Harrogate LNER service via Leeds might be via Hambleton Jn, avoiding Wakefield Westgate. This will mean that Harrogate trains isn’t have to reverse. There will be 2 other trains per hour via Wakefield Westgate though, meaning Leeds gets 2-3 trains per hour instead of 2. There will be a service increase all round, though the Aberdeen and Inverness trains will not be part of the KGX, YRK, NCL & EDB service. They will be part of a slower service calling at:

London Kings Cross
Peterborough
Doncaster
York
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle
Berwick
Edinburgh

As well as other changes
Hope this helps

Very interesting and personally handy that the Highland Chieftain and all Aberdeen services will call at Durham, then.

 

[darloscott]

Very interesting and personally handy that the Highland Chieftain and all Aberdeen services will call at Durham, then.

I suppose there is a strong offshore market in the North East so it would have made zero sense for the Aberdeen services in particular to miss Darlington and Durham.

 

[TheBigD]

Newark to York non-stop is a bit of a rarity! Cheers.

1730 Kings Cross - Edinburgh does it every weekday (pre coronavirus timetable).

 

[ainsworth74]

With thanks to @Dan H York as it's always worth the reminder for people who may not have come across it before but we do have a dedicated thread on the proposed future LNER timetable which you can find here. I would ask that this more general discussion take place on that thread and this one remain focused on Middlesbrough and it's proposed King's Cross services (though the historical stuff is okay to, just about ).

Thanks!

 

[DarloRich]

With thanks to @Dan H York as it's always worth the reminder for people who may not have come across it before but we do have a dedicated thread on the proposed future LNER timetable which you can find here. I would ask that this more general discussion take place on that thread and this one remain focused on Middlesbrough and it's proposed King's Cross services (though the historical stuff is okay to, just about ).

Thanks!

is it worth saying, in addition, that the current crisis and the economic crisis to come may impact on any new proposed timetable changes?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Maybe but it has lots of issues still. Redcar platform 2 (the only one that works for this move) is already getting quite congested now with two Northerns per hour and a TPE every hour as well so fitting in an LNER every other hour whilst not impossible I'm sure would be tough. Certainly if you also want to give a decent turnaround it gets harder. Platform lengths might also been an issue. Redcar is only around 100m long which isn't much of a 9/10-car and not even a whole 5-car! Saltburn is easier in some respects logistically but is killed dead by platform length. Both are around 150m so a 5-car fits but a 9/10-car overhangs the platform and fouls the points/signals so you'd be blocking the other platform which is needed by the Northern services.

I think the real answer to all of this is that there is a need to grasp the nettle of Middlesbrough's layout and fix it!

Wouldn't it be easier for LNER to extend the service to Saltburn and split the service at Middlesborough, front five coaches continue to Saltburn rear five terminates at Middlesborough?

 

[Anvil1984]

Wouldn't it be easier for LNER to extend the service to Saltburn and split the service at Middlesborough, front five coaches continue to Saltburn rear five terminates at Middlesborough?

How would that solve the initial problem of stabling space at Middlesbrough which is the usual (alongside) reasoning on the extension

 

[NorthernSpirit]

How would that solve the initial problem of stabling space at Middlesbrough which is the usual (alongside) reasoning on the extension

The terminated portion could from Middlesborough run ECS to either Great Ayton or Battersby where it can turn round without blocking the mainline, at Batterby there is roughly a quarter of a mile of excess track beyond the platforms to a set of buffers.

 

[Anvil1984]

So many reasons why this wouldn’t happen. LNER are not going to sacrifice multiple extra sets just to allow long ECS moves to happen and also not wanting an extra driver shunting up and down to Battersby all day. Northern aren’t going to want the single line blocked preventing access for their Nunthorpe/ Whitby services for quite a lot of the hour. Total non starter

 

[FQTV]

So many reasons why this wouldn’t happen. LNER are not going to sacrifice multiple extra sets just to allow long ECS moves to happen and also not wanting an extra driver shunting up and down to Battersby all day. Northern aren’t going to want the single line blocked preventing access for their Nunthorpe/ Whitby services for quite a lot of the hour. Total non starter

It's a while since I have been down there and really paid attention, but my impression/recollection is that there is acres and acres of linear space beside the lines to the East of Middlesbrough Station, where track used to be. Presumably this was rationalised when through routes were closed and dock traffic dried up. A lot of spurs and branches will have been redeveloped over, but the main rail corridor was quite wide. As is the case in many places, the encroachment of trees makes the corridor now look a lot less wide than it really is.

If I'm correct, then I assume that it really does come down purely to planning and funding, or apportionment thereof - rather than it being a physical obstruction to address - like say the Castlefield Corridor or the Marylebone tunnels.

And, therefore as you say for all sorts of other reasons, there really should be no need to even consider things like using Battersby for ECS stabling.

 

[Anvil1984]

It's a while since I have been down there and really paid attention, but my impression/recollection is that there is acres and acres of linear space beside the lines to the East of Middlesbrough Station, where track used to be. Presumably this was rationalised when through routes were closed and dock traffic dried up. A lot of spurs and branches will have been redeveloped over, but the main rail corridor was quite wide. As is the case in many places, the encroachment of trees makes the corridor now look a lot less wide than it really is.

If I'm correct, then I assume that it really does come down purely to planning and funding, or apportionment thereof - rather than it being a physical obstruction to address - like say the Castlefield Corridor or the Marylebone tunnels.

And, therefore as you say for all sorts of other reasons, there really should be no need to even consider things like using Battersby for ECS stabling.

The main solution to this has been addressed really and that’s to put a crossover at the West side of the station to allow trains coming from the West to terminate in the East Bound platform and then go into the sidings at the east end of the station. To go over old ground at present this would require a double reversal and is probably a planners nightmare when there’s already extra Northern services slotted to use the station. The sidings at the west side are way too small. But again it requires investment

 

[greyman42]

is it worth saying, in addition, that the current crisis and the economic crisis to come may impact on any new proposed timetable changes?

Are you thinking that the Middlesbrough service might get the boot?

 

[class26]

Are you thinking that the Middlesbrough service might get the boot?

It might be worth bearing in mind the present governments debt to such areas and the dreadful headlines that would be forthcoming should such a service be abandoned.

 

[Chris NS]

Before speculating on Saltburn extensions, can someone clarify: does the current proposed Middlesbrough-London service work with the existing two platforms, or it is dependent on the third platform going ahead?

 

[DarloRich]

Are you thinking that the Middlesbrough service might get the boot?

It might be worth bearing in mind the present governments debt to such areas and the dreadful headlines that would be forthcoming should such a service be abandoned.

there can be no certainty at this time.

 

[Anvil1984]

Before speculating on Saltburn extensions, can someone clarify: does the current proposed Middlesbrough-London service work with the existing two platforms, or it is dependent on the third platform going ahead?

Simple answer I don’t anyone on here knows the answer to that, it was an issue raised by the Tees Valley Mayor (forgot his title). It would be very tricky without a third platform because otherwise it’s tricky to find somewhere to put the train for the statutory 25 mins turnaround hence the speculation about Redcar / Saltburn / Battersby extensions (even if just ECS).

 

[darloscott]

Simple answer I don’t anyone on here knows the answer to that, it was an issue raised by the Tees Valley Mayor (forgot his title). It would be very tricky without a third platform because otherwise it’s tricky to find somewhere to put the train for the statutory 25 mins turnaround hence the speculation about Redcar / Saltburn / Battersby extensions (even if just ECS).

The simple answer is no there isn't the capacity to have a unit sat blocking a platform for 25-30 mins turnaround with several other services every hour needing access. The 3rd platform would be needed to make it work

 

[ainsworth74]

The simple answer is no there isn't the capacity to have a unit sat blocking a platform for 25-30 mins turnaround with several other services every hour needing access. The 3rd platform would be needed to make it work

And the only alternative to that is to shuffle around the station (arrive in P2, reverse out of P2 towards Thornaby using a crossing over, reverse back through P1 into the HST sidings). LNER are doing a similar shuffle at Harrogate currently (arrive P1, shunt north, reverse into P3, then reverse into the stabling siding). Which works but at Harrogate is preventing the fourth Northern service per hour from running. Well at Middlesbrough such a performance would probably already be blocked by the weight of traffic that's already there! Recalling that currently there's about 8tph between P1 and P2 so slotting in the sort of move required to access the sidings would be a ruddy nightmare. I'm sure it could be made to work without P3, if someone is willing to add some extra crossovers, but it certainly works better with a P3!

 

[Anvil1984]

And the only alternative to that is to shuffle around the station (arrive in P2, reverse out of P2 towards Thornaby using a crossing over, reverse back through P1 into the HST sidings). LNER are doing a similar shuffle at Harrogate currently (arrive P1, shunt north, reverse into P3, then reverse into the stabling siding). Which works but at Harrogate is preventing the fourth Northern service per hour from running. Well at Middlesbrough such a performance would probably already be blocked by the weight of traffic that's already there! Recalling that currently there's about 8tph between P1 and P2 so slotting in the sort of move required to access the sidings would be a ruddy nightmare. I'm sure it could be made to work without P3, if someone is willing to add some extra crossovers, but it certainly works better with a P3!

Being technical there is an alternative double shunt. Out of P2 onto the Nunthorpe branch just beyond Cargo Fleet LC (reverse), into platform 1 (reverse) into HST sidings. All would depend on what path was available if any. However paths would be at a premium as from December there's planned to be at potentially 5/6 services using each platform per hour (with potentially extra shunt moves due to trains from Newcastle no longer going down the branch line to Nunthorpe)

I agree with you both that its a nightmare and probably unfeasible without a platform 3 but this being the railway I wouldn't be surprised if they try to shoehorn it in somehow

 

[ainsworth74]

Being technical there is an alternative double shunt. Out of P2 onto the Nunthorpe branch just beyond Cargo Fleet LC (reverse), into platform 1 (reverse) into HST sidings. All would depend on what path was available if any.

Oh yes of course! Not sure how I forgot that seeing as I used to watch TPE doing it regularly until fairly recently...

 

[Anvil1984]

Oh yes of course! Not sure how I forgot that seeing as I used to watch TPE doing it regularly until fairly recently...

Your example would be the rarest of all the shunts and not one I could honestly say that I have done / seen as it require shunting from the down line to the up line and reversing on the main. Usually its into West Dock siding and reverse as you have to let at least one thing or other pass you first

 

[ainsworth74]

Your example would be the rarest of all the shunts and not one I could honestly say that I have done / seen as it require shunting from the down line to the up line and reversing on the main. Usually its into West Dock siding and reverse as you have to let at least one thing or other pass you first

I've seen it done maybe once or twice whilst waiting for various trains with a Northern unit that either disgraced itself or had been cancelled for some other reason. Not sure whether West Dock had stuff in it at the time which is why that performance was under taken but I do recall the first time it happened confused me greatly as I had not expected to see the unit again trundling through P1 a minute or two later into the HST sidings!

 

[Chris NS]

Hmm, looks like there's going to a moment of truth coming soon then. Seems unlikely that a platform - even a temporary one - could be built in time for 2021. However, the promise has always been a Middlesbrough-London service - not a Middlesbrough-London service but not until Middlesbrough station has an extra platform that can support this.

My guess is that Ben Houghton will push for the service come hell or high water, but it might have to be two or three times a day until platform 3 comes.

 

[Anvil1984]

Hmm, looks like there's going to a moment of truth coming soon then. Seems unlikely that a platform - even a temporary one - could be built in time for 2021. However, the promise has always been a Middlesbrough-London service - not a Middlesbrough-London service but not until Middlesbrough station has an extra platform that can support this.

My guess is that Ben Houghton will push for the service come hell or high water, but it might have to be two or three times a day until platform 3 comes.

Actually reading a newspaper article from 2019 (as you do), Ben Houchen said there's an alternative plan until platform 3 gets the go ahead of just operating two or 3 trains a day. He also mentions a reversing point I didn't think of which is at South Bank on the freight lines and coming on and off at South Bank Junction. Its a possibility if its a 9 car working it, it'll need a safe walking route fitted (to be honest thats quite cheap) if they plan to use 10 car (2x5 units)

 

[thealm]

Would this service use Platform 3?