Might the Brighton Line be converted to 25KV one day?

[76020]

I found this on the RSSB website:-

12.4.2.1 Electrification
Some DC equipment has been recently renewed, but the route
was selected as a high density example. AC electrification would
not create significant opportunities for additional electric services
as almost all trains using the route are electric already. The
estimated scope of AC electrification extends from East Croydon
station to Preston Park. In practice it is likely that dual-voltage
infrastructure would be extended into Brighton station.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T950_rpt_final.pdf

Any thoughts?

 

[Bald Rick]

A long way down the list.

 

[Class377/5]

More likely extended from Thameslink Core first. But would be a long time away.

 

[D365]

Not until the 442s, 455s and 456s have been eliminated (the latter is almost certainly moving to SWT) - I would get 4 or 6-car 377/7s for expresses (including Gatwick, with the option for 110mph running on AC?), and cascade existing 377s to replace all other types.

 

[thelem]

What about the section from East Croydon to City Thameslink? Surely they wouldn't have them switching voltage twice during their journey?

 

[Bald Rick]

What about the section from East Croydon to City Thameslink? Surely they wouldn't have them switching voltage twice during their journey?

Why not? Before the rebuild of the line and the new patforms at Stratford a few years ago, trains on the North London line changed AC <> DC 4 times on a trip from Stratford to Richmond.

 

[Monty]

I think you are more likely to see further conversion on the SWML after the Basingstoke to Southampton section is completed before any attention is diverted to the BML. With Southampton to Weymouth looking like a plausible option.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think you are more likely to see further conversion on the SWML after the Basingstoke to Southampton section is completed before any attention is diverted to the BML. With Southampton to Weymouth looking like a plausible option.

Agreed - and if I were a politician (god forbid!!) there is no way I would spend money on this line while there was so much of the rest of the network not electrified at all. To me it makes sense to electrify huge chunks of the non-electrified network (away from the SE of the country) at 25 KV AC OHLE, and only when a 750V DC 3rd rail system reaches life expiry or needs urgent work would that get done. I realize that the 3rd rail system is more susceptible to leaf fall etc, but we are talking politics.

 

[DXMachina]

converting DC to AC in some circumstances would have a higher BCR than electrification of a diesel route, in terms of allowing through services without a change of power or the need to use diesels.

BCR is ultimately the decision maker these days

 

[RichmondCommu]

But given that the route was one of the first to be electrified whats the condition of the 3rd rail and associated equipment? On that basis it might make sense.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I found this on the RSSB website:-

12.4.2.1 In practice it is likely that dual-voltage
infrastructure would be extended into Brighton station.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T950_rpt_final.pdf

I thought we had established that this was only possible for very short distances, so I read this as saying the Coastaway routes will both remain on 3rd rail after the main line is converted?

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought we had established that this was only possible for very short distances, so I read this as saying the Coastaway routes will both remain on 3rd rail after the main line is converted?

This is how I read it and to be honest that's got to be the logical interpretation knowing what we know about third-rail and OHLE not getting along very well together.

 

[Eagle]

With Southampton to Weymouth looking like a plausible option.

Although I'd say Basingstoke to Salisbury, and Salisbury to Southampton/Eastleigh, are more likely.

 

[Class377/5]

Why not? Before the rebuild of the line and the new patforms at Stratford a few years ago, trains on the North London line changed AC <> DC 4 times on a trip from Stratford to Richmond.

What about the section from East Croydon to City Thameslink? Surely they wouldn't have them switching voltage twice during their journey?

When he BML gets wires it would be make sense for it to be an extension fom Thameslink. That way you'd get he benefits straight away as you'd already have rolling stock. Once you reach Croydon the slows north to the WLL would start making sense too.

Older ideas for the Thameslink 2000 old have seen wires from Farringdon extended to Tulse Hill then cut back to Elephant before settling on City.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even older ideas had the third rail coming up to West Hampstead.

 

[DXMachina]

A good question would be to ask why Thameslink's AC/DC switch is halfway through the core route. Those tunnels are pretty old, is there room for OHL all the way through?

 

[76020]

The RSSB report was made August 2011, around a year later, as we all know, CP5 was announced and a part of one of the routes in the report was given the go ahead for conversion, Basingstoke to Southampton Docks, this was due to the life expectancy of the existing DC equipment which was coming up for renewal.
The other route highlighted was the Brighton main line, does anybody know when the DC equipment is coming up for renewal on this stretch, or any other routes that the DC equipment is coming up for being life expired as this seems to be the driving factor.

 

[mr_jrt]

I would imagine it would be quite reasonable to say have both sets of coastway platforms at Brighton station as 3rd rail only with the central BML platforms as OHLE to minimise the complications...the only complications I would have though would come from the branches....i.e. the direct trains to London from Hove and Lewes. Would we expect the changeovers to happen at those two stations or to have the Hove trains change (and thus stop) at Preston Park and the Lewes ones at Wivelsfield?

As for Thameslink...I was of the understanding that whilst Blackfriars seems more the more logical place to stop the wires, Farringdon was chosen because that's where they already ended, with the extension to City Thameslink just for fail overs. The wires couldn't justifiably go south from Blackfriars as handling the dual voltage and signalling immunisation of the lines between Charing Cross, Cannon Street and London Bridge would be crazy difficult and expensive, and the short extension to Blackfriars alone just isn't worth it. You won't see Blackfriars wired until London Bridge is.

 

[paul1609]

Agreed - and if I were a politician (god forbid!!) there is no way I would spend money on this line while there was so much of the rest of the network not electrified at all. To me it makes sense to electrify huge chunks of the non-electrified network (away from the SE of the country) at 25 KV AC OHLE, and only when a 750V DC 3rd rail system reaches life expiry or needs urgent work would that get done. I realize that the 3rd rail system is more susceptible to leaf fall etc, but we are talking politics.

The urgency with the Brighton Main Line is the ability of the dc system to provide power even for the currently planned trains. Brighton is likely to see overhead long before Weymouth

 

[Bald Rick]

The urgency with the Brighton Main Line is the ability of the dc system to provide power even for the currently planned trains.

Don't worry, it's all in hand (uprating the DC)

 

[The Ham]

I thought we had established that this was only possible for very short distances, so I read this as saying the Coastaway routes will both remain on 3rd rail after the main line is converted?

This is how I read it and to be honest that's got to be the logical interpretation knowing what we know about third-rail and OHLE not getting along very well together.

3rd Rail & OHLE do not get on well with each other and so can only run together for short periods. However much of the EMU stock that there is around now on the 3rd rail network (e.g. class 444 and 450) can be converted by the insertion of a pantograph and a transformer to run on either.

By doing so the trains which currently run Waterloo to Weymouth will run 3rd rail to Basingstoke OHLE to the end of the overhead wires and then run 3rd rail to Weymouth.

I think you are more likely to see further conversion on the SWML after the Basingstoke to Southampton section is completed before any attention is diverted to the BML. With Southampton to Weymouth looking like a plausible option.

Although I'd say Basingstoke to Salisbury, and Salisbury to Southampton/Eastleigh, are more likely.

Southampton (or if this story http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/10/09/an-electrifying-conference/ is to be believed Poole) To Weymouth is very likely when it comes up for renewal and/or when there more services are needed to run.

Southampton to Basingstoke via Salisbury is very likely to be electrified as it is being cleared as a diversion route for freight. This means that all the structures over the line will have been cleared to enable OHLE, meaning that one of the big costs associated with electrifying the line already undertaken. I would expect both routes between Romsey and Southampton to be done at the same time as this would remove the need for DMU's running the SWT's services over these line. As well as allow both routes to be used for freight.

I would also expect Woking to Basingstoke to be a fairly easy to convert section, as there are a limited number of over bridges and some of these either cross naturally higher than the height needed or have been replaced (or are due to be replaced) such as the foot bridges at Farnborough and Fleet.

 

[JamesRowden]

If there was no difference in 3rd rail renewal dates, maybe it would be better to convert the East Coastway (including Seaford branch) to AC before the Brighton mainline. The far end of the East Coastway (Hastings to Ashford) is not electrified with the services running all the way to Brighton.

Also, the DC supply of the line between Hastings and Tunbridge Wells is not rated high enough to allow most of the peak services to run as 12-car. Services on the Tonbridge Mainline need to all be 12-car during the peak to account for demand in the near future. The Kent RUS strategy stated that upgrading the DC power supply of the Tonbridge to Hastings line to run 12-car trains would be the equivalent cost of eletrifying an unelectrified line. Some of Southeastern's 375s have pantagraphs. Upgrading the Hastings to Tunbridge Wells line to AC would also provide enough power for the new Thameslink stock to run to Hastings.

By having AC from Ashford to Brighton the only trains that would need to be dual voltage (apart from the interim period) are those running on the Victoria to Ore/Eastbourne services that could change power supply at Lewes.

 

[hwl]

A suggestion - Uckfield line electrification as the place to start?

1) In the CP5 HLOS they said they were looking at extending the length of services along the Uckfield line (currently unelectrified) but Bombardier don't have a current production DMU (would a new design be compatible their current 171s on the service). The apparent choice appears to be new bigger fleet of DMUs and cascade the existing ones or electrify (similar choice to GOBLIN).

2) As Southern are loosing platforms in London Bridge as part of the rebuild works (some temporarily some permanently) they need as many full length services as possible in London bridge in the future ideally 12 car.

3) in the CP5 HLOS there is innovation funding to trial simple cheap 3rd rail to OHLE change over (i.e. one not a busy route like thameslink) and OHLE conversion so they might tap those funds)

4) Post delivery of new Thameslink stock they will probably get their dual voltage 377s back, so plenty of suitable compatible rolling stock to allow Uckfield electrification and trains to be joined/split at a suitable station. (Should also allow retirement of 442s and older coast way stock which would also allow electrification elsewhere too)

 

[Chris125]

Uckfield electrification must be looking very likely - as you point out the combined franchise will already have the extra electrostars needed, and the costs could be kept down if the Paisley Canal model is used with disruption payments waived and if necessary neutral sections under low bridges.

Chris

 

[Bald Rick]

Uckfield electrification must be looking very likely -

Chris

It isn't.

 

[Chris125]

It isn't.

It will be done sooner or later, i guess we'll just have to wait and see when.

Chris

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It will be done sooner or later, i guess we'll just have to wait and see when.Chris

Agreed - has to be - and 25 KV AC OHLE makes most sense.

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be done sooner or later, i guess we'll just have to wait and see when.

Chris

Well yes, but that depends on your definition of later. I would be surprised if it happens any time in the next 15 years.

 

[paul1609]

Hmm the man from Southern seemed to think that some of the new franchise bids would include partnership schemes for electrification of Uckfield and Marshlink.
The guy from Network Rail (admittedly a civil engineer) didnt seem to disagree

 

[tbtc]

A suggestion - Uckfield line electrification as the place to start?

Uckfield electrification must be looking very likely

It isn't.

I would be surprised if it happens any time in the next 15 years.

Out of interest, why do you think its a low priority?

Don't mean to doubt you, just interested in how things look behind the scenes.

(given how some of the confirmed CP5 electrification routes seem to have a weaker case to me at least)