Mileage!

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Tomnick

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This one's shamelessly stolen from our volunteers' forum, so GCR chaps ought to be excluded! It came up quite a while ago, but I came across it again the other day.

I'm looking for five locations on the (current) national network where increasing mileages from London St. Pancras via different routes 'meet themselves' head-on. To take two examples quoted in the original thread, (the former?) Clay Cross South Jn wouldn't count, as the two mileages are increasing along converging routes there. Leicester Jn at Burton-on-Trent wouldn't count - the mileage from St. Pancras via Coalvillle meets the mileage from Derby head-on, but the latter is measured from Derby, not St. Pancras.
 
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Tomnick

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No-one? Must be more difficult than I thought! Would it help if I gave one of the five locations as Melton Junction, just north of Melton Mowbray - where the mileage from St Pancras via Leicester meets the mileage from St Pancras via Corby, the latter then continuing towards Nottingham over what's now the test track.

Hopefully you'll see that you can make educated guesses as to the other four locations, with no more than a rail atlas and a bit of common sense thinking about the history and development of the network!
 

Tomnick

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None of the Syston Junctions are, I'm afraid. South is the only one where it could apply, and there the mileage increases along both routes (towards East and North).
 

ChrisCooper

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Mansfield Junction where the mileage from St Pancras via Leicester meets head on with the mileage from St Pancras via Corby, Old Dalby and Nottingham (despite the latter no longer being complete). It's roughly the same, 125m 64ch vs. 124m 22ch.
 

Tomnick

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Correct! Mansfield Junction, Melton Junction - three more to go...
 

Tomnick

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I'd hoped it'd generate a little more interest :( .

Answers are:

Melton Junction (given as a clue)
Mansfield Junction (well done!)
Derby Junction (where the Chaddesden branch leaves the mainline north of Derby Midland)
Seymour Junction
Chinley East Junction
 

Tomnick

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St. Pancras acts as the datum for the mileage measurement (i.e. the numbers indicated on the mileposts, and used as a reference for all sorts of maintenance and operating purposes) for the Midland route north, and various branches off it. So if you take the example of the Kettering - Melton line, Kettering North Junction is given (in Quail at least) at at 74m00ch from St. Pancras, Corby North Jn. is 79m32ch, Manton Jn SB is 90m18ch and so on - increasing as you go north. The same happens as you follow the mainline north via Leicester, then branching off at Syston towards Melton. Thus the mileages (both using St. Pancras as a datum) are increasing along both the route towards Melton Junction from Leicester, and towards Melton Junction from Corby - until they meet 'head on' at Melton Junction. I was looking for that location, and four others where two increasing mileages, both with St. Pancras as a datum, met in such a way. A bit of a complicated question, but I thought it was an interesting look at the history of the present network at least :s
 

Tomnick

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Look at a Quail map, if you've got one, and observe the mileages within - see how each mileage 'run' increases from a datum, and then see if you can link that to the question. I suspect that it's one of those things that's only of interest to those of us who find the operation of the railway more interesting, rather than what runs on it.
 

Zoe

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On a related note, can anyone name any similar situations on the GWR from Paddington? I can think of at least one.
 

Tomnick

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Hawkeridge Junction? The mileage from Padd via Newbury (95m32ch) meets the mileage from Padd via Swindon (109m14ch)

Greenford East Junction appears to be another - from Padd via West Ealing (8m70ch) and from Padd t'other way (7m15ch).
 

Zoe

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Yes and yes, there is another one also that won't be immediately obvious.
 

Tomnick

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It's not obvious enough for me to see it :) .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How about Stourbridge North Jn (mileage via Worcester and via Snow Hill) and, more obscurely, Lightmoor Jn (ditto)?
 

Zoe

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It's not obvious enough for me to see it :) .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How about Stourbridge North Jn (mileage via Worcester and via Snow Hill) and, more obscurely, Lightmoor Jn (ditto)?
Stourbridge North Junction was the one I was looking for. It wasn't obvious as unless you know your history you won't be thinking about Paddington. The key was that in the question I said "GWR" and not WR. Well done for getting it though.
 

flymo

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Are the mileage markers from just north of Montrose to Aberdeen still measured from Carlisle? If so these must still be measured via the now closed line from Perth through Forfar & Brechin to (north of) Montrose. Quite interesting really, the line lives on albeit in number form.
 

Zoe

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Quite interesting really, the line lives on albeit in number form.
The mileage from Harrow to Marylebone (197 M 05 Ch - 205 M 77 Ch MCJ1) is calculated from Manchester via the GCR. I'm not sure if the heritage GCR use this mileage on their lines, one of the volunteers on this forum should be able to confirm though.
 

Tomnick

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Yes, we do use the original mileages from Manchester London Road. It's not unique, but it's certainly unusual for a former mainline at least, in that the mileage increases in the 'up' direction.
 

Zoe

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Yes, we do use the original mileages from Manchester London Road. It's not unique, but it's certainly unusual for a former mainline at least, in that the mileage increases in the 'up' direction.
Was it always that way or was there ever a time when "down" was towards London?
 

Tomnick

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Was it always that way or was there ever a time when "down" was towards London?
Yes, I believe the line designations were reversed at some point, probably quite early in the line's history.

37401 - believe me, mileage isn't a difficult concept. If you're going to measure the mileage along a particular route (which needs to be done for all sorts of reasons more important than recording "mileage"!) and use it as a reference for particular features, defects...whatever, then you clearly have to measure that mileage from a "starting point" for each route. If you're only confused by the word 'datum', that's what one of those is - quite a widely used term, I thought. Typically, the main lines radiating from London would measure mileage from zero at the London terminus, increasing away from London. Branches from that main line would often continue that mileage from the branch junction, but other branches would restart the mileage from zero at the same point - for a whole host of mainly historical reasons. As I said, interesting for those who appreciate the actual operation of the railway, less so for anyone who's only interested in locos.
 

Zoe

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If you're only confused by the word 'datum', that's what one of those is - quite a widely used term, I thought. Typically, the main lines radiating from London would measure mileage from zero at the London terminus, increasing away from London.
For reference, here is a hopefully complete list of lines with increasing mileages from Paddington:

Great Western Main Line (Paddington to Penzance via Box)
*Acton and Northolt Line(Old Oak Common West to Northolt Junction)
*West Ealding Loop(West Ealing Junction to Greenford West Junction and Greenford Bay)
**Greenford East Curve(Greenford South Junction to Greenford East Junction)
*Heathrow Link Line(Airpport Junction to Heathrow Terminal 4 and Terminal 5)
*Staines Branch(West Drayton Junction to Colnbrook)
*Windsor Branch(Slough to Windsor & Eaton Central)
*Wycombe Branch(Maidenhead to Bourne End)
*Henley-On-Thames Branch(Twyford to Henley-On-Thames)
*Basingstoke Branch(Westbury Line Junction to Basingstoke)
**Berks and Hants Line(Southcote Junction to site of former Stert Junction)
***Stert and Westbury Line(site of formet Stert Junction to Westbury North Junction)
****Westbury Avoiding Line(Heywood Road Junction to Fairwood Junction)
****Westbury East Loop(Westbury East Loop Junction to Hawkeridge Junction)
****Castle Cary and Langport Line(Castle Cary Junction to Cogload Junction)
*Didcot East Curve(Didcot East Junction to Didcot North Junction)
*Didcot and Chester Line(Chester Line Junction to site of former Handsworth Junction)
**Oxford, Worcester and Wolverhampton Line(Wolvercot Junction to Round Oak)
***Worcester and Hereford Line(Shrub Hill Junction to Shelwick Junction)
***Madley Junction to Ironbridge(Ironbridge to Lightmoor Junction)
***Stoke Branch(Droitwich Spa Junction to Stoke Works Junction)
**Leamington Spa and Coventry Line(Leamington Spa Junction to Milverton)
**Bordersly to Tysley Line(Small Heath South Junction to Bordersly Junction)
**Handsworth to Stourbridge Junction Line(site of former Handsworth Junction to Smethwick Junction)
***Galton Junction to Stourbridge Junction(Smethwick Junction to Stourbridge North Junction)
**Wolverhampton to Saltney Junction(Wolverhampton North Junction to Saltney Junction)
***Madley Junction to Ironbridge Line(Madley Junction to Lightmoor Junction)
*South Wales Main Line(Swindon to Johnston via Gloucester)
**Llanwern Works(Llanwen Works East Connection to Llanwern Works West Connection)
**Western Valleys Line(Gaer Junction to Park Junction)
**Newport Low Level Loop(Alexandra Dock Junction to Newport Docks)
**Roath Dock Branch(Pengam Junction to 168 M 61 Ch)
**Swansea Disstrict Line(Briton Ferry Up Flying Loop Junction/Court Sarl Junciton to 208 M 49 Ch)
**Swansea High Street Branch(Landore Junction to Swansea)
**Carmathan and Newcastle Emlyn Line(Carmathan Junction to Carmathan)
**Pembroke and Temby Branch(Whitland Junction to Pembroke Dock)
**Claberston Road and Letterson Line(Claberston Junction to Letterson)
***North Pembroke and Fishguard Line(Letterson to NR Boundary)
****Fishguard Harbour Lines(NR Boundary to Fishguard Harbou)
**Milford Haven Branch(Johnston to Milfrod Haven)
*South Wales and Bristol Direct Line(Wooton Bassett Junction to Patchway Junction No. 2)
**Filton East Curve(Stoke Gifford Junction to Filton)
*Weymouth Line(Thingley Junction to Dorchester Junction via Frome)
**Salisbury Branch(Westbury South Junction to Wilton Junction)
**Frome Avoiding Line(Clink Road Junction to Blatchbridge Junction)
*Bristol Loop(Feader Bridge Junction to Dr Days Junction)
*Portishead Branch(Parson Street Junction to Portbury Dock Junction)
**Portbury Dock Branch(Portbury Dock Junction to Portbury)
*Weston-Super-Mare Loop(Worle Junction to Uphill Junction)
*Torquay Branch(Newton Abbot West Junction to Paignton)
*Sutton Harbour Branch(Laira Junction to former Friary Junction)
**Friary Branch(Former Friary Junction to Plymouth Friary)
*Lostwithiel and Fowey Branch(Lostwithiel Junction to Fowey Dock)
*Par Loop(Par Loop Junction to St Blazey Junction)
**Newquay Branch(St Blazey Junction to Newquay)
*St Dennis Branch(Burngullow Junction to Parkandillack)
*Falmouth Branch(Penwithers Junction to Falmouth Docks)
*St Ives Branch(St Erth Junction to St Ives)
 
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