Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[Krokodil]

Sometimes it has to be accepted that there will be temporary disruption for the long term good. Go back into history and see how Ronald Reagan dealt with the 1980 air traffic controllers strike .

He was able to draft in experienced Air Traffic Controllers from the military. There is no strategic reserve of train drivers - nor of the instructors who train them.

 

[Confused52]

If there is an attempt to stop nominated workers from going to work under a work notice the strike is no longer protected and the unions (not the members) can expect to be sued, having lost protection. Pointless sacking a scare resource when you can make the real protagonist suffer. The interesting question might be who suffered the pecuniary loss - the TOC or the DFT - civil case against the government - no probably just the TOC then.

 

[dk1]

Sometimes it has to be accepted that there will be temporary disruption for the long term good. Go back into history and see how Ronald Reagan dealt with the 1980 air traffic controllers strike .

That’s quite a laughable comparison.

 

[baz962]

Sometimes it has to be accepted that there will be temporary disruption for the long term good. Go back into history and see how Ronald Reagan dealt with the 1980 air traffic controllers strike .

Not exactly short term , it lasted a good ten years and he got a bit burnt. They also ended up offering most of those sacked atc's their jobs back.

 

[Economist]

There is no strategic reserve of train drivers - nor of the instructors who train them.

I was a driver instructor prior to moving TOC and if any drivers there had been sacked for refusing to cross a picket line I'd have handed my instructor ticket back. I suspect most other instructors would do the same.

No new trainees until everyone sacked has their jobs back.

 

[dk1]

I was a driver instructor prior to moving TOC and if any drivers there had been sacked for refusing to cross a picket line I'd have handed my instructor ticket back. I suspect most other instructors would do the same.

No new trainees until everyone sacked has their jobs back.

Hear hear. Wouldn’t take much.

 

[Krokodil]

Instructing hardly seems worth it. Huge amounts of responsibility (second guessing someone else is hard work) for hardly any extra pay.

 

[irish_rail]

I was a driver instructor prior to moving TOC and if any drivers there had been sacked for refusing to cross a picket line I'd have handed my instructor ticket back. I suspect most other instructors would do the same.

No new trainees until everyone sacked has their jobs back.

I think that's exactly the kind of thing that would happen. Itd be the end of the railway, and no one wants that. Thats why I do believe the TOCs wouldn't allow the Dft to take such reckless action, even if it means them having to stand up to their masters. It would also spell the end of the likes of Wilkinson as in the long run he would be blamed for the railway falling apart. I'm not in the least bit concerned it will happen frankly.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think that's exactly the kind of thing that would happen. Itd be the end of the railway, and no one wants that. Thats why I do believe the TOCs wouldn't allow the Dft to take such reckless action, even if it means them having to stand up to their masters. It would also spell the end of the likes of Wilkinson as in the long run he would be blamed for the railway falling apart. I'm not in the least bit concerned it will happen frankly.

I don't think DfT, the TOCs and the unions have even gotten so far as to sit down and talk about how MSL will work at grass roots level. All I know is it is a massive amount of work for some TOCs to try and plan what to run, and swathes of route are just abandoned - ie Chiltern north of Banbury on strike weeks.

The issue is that ASLEF ballot members for strike action in a democratic manner (90+% results), so strikes are called, then DfT are trying to make drivers cross their own picket lines, and get paid to come to work. In other words do exactly the opposite to what they voted for, but worse. A trade union expects its members to unite in action - all to "feel the pain". Not going to work if say 15% of the union members have to cross their own picket lines.

Sounds like a terrible plan to me.

 

[Watershed]

I think that's exactly the kind of thing that would happen. Itd be the end of the railway, and no one wants that. Thats why I do believe the TOCs wouldn't allow the Dft to take such reckless action, even if it means them having to stand up to their masters. It would also spell the end of the likes of Wilkinson as in the long run he would be blamed for the railway falling apart. I'm not in the least bit concerned it will happen frankly.

As if. The TOCs don't care a jot about the 'greater good'. They're only interested in complying with the contracts they have with the DfT; if the DfT says jump, they'll ask "how high".

The notion that "working to rule"-type actions such as this could stop minimum service levels from being enacted it fanciful in the extreme. Only politics can stop it, and union members' interests would be far better served by addressing that side of things rather than trying to play games.

 

[Krokodil]

As if. The TOCs don't care a jot about the 'greater good'. They're only interested in complying with the contracts they have with the DfT; if the DfT says jump, they'll ask "how high".

It won't be in their interests for the service to completely and permanently fall apart, leading to public calls for their removal.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I don’t think the majority of people would care a jot if drivers started getting sacked. All the noises coming from Conservative Party concerence suggest that private car transport is valued far higher than public transport, and it’s beginning to look like Sunak is looking for reasons to justify shutting down at least parts of the railway. Unions will keep falling into the traps the government sets until there’s nothing left.

 

[Watershed]

It won't be in their interests for the service to completely and permanently fall apart, leading to public calls for their removal.

They will lose their contract far sooner by disobeying the DfT's instructions, not to mention landing themselves in the DfT's bad books for other or future contracts.

Some people seem to live in a parallel universe where "this one small trick" will save the day. Unfortunately, that's just not how it works.

 

[Bantamzen]

I was a driver instructor prior to moving TOC and if any drivers there had been sacked for refusing to cross a picket line I'd have handed my instructor ticket back. I suspect most other instructors would do the same.

No new trainees until everyone sacked has their jobs back.

No new trainees means fewer services can run, which means fewer passengers handing over fares, which means less money coming in from the railways, which could mean less money to give back to it. Which then means less services run, requiring fewer staff to run them...

Just saying like.

 

[irish_rail]

They will lose their contract far sooner by disobeying the DfT's instructions, not to mention landing themselves in the DfT's bad books for other or future contracts.

Some people seem to live in a parallel universe where "this one small trick" will save the day. Unfortunately, that's just not how it works.

I disagree. You only have to look at Avanti and TPE. Came very close to losing their contracts. Any TOC knows, that right now, sacking more than a couple of drivers is going to turn it into a complete and utter basket case. And I do genuinely believe in the case of most TOCs there are people higher up (the likes of Clarence Yard perhaps) who would step in and at least try to dissuade such suicidal actions.

 

[Krokodil]

They will lose their contract far sooner by disobeying the DfT's instructions, not to mention landing themselves in the DfT's bad books for other or future contracts.

You don't have to disobey the DfT's diktats to privately say to them "are you aware that the consequences of doing xyz will be abc?"

 

[21C101]

I very much doubt they will go down the route of trying to discipline any staff.
The route gone down will be sequestering of assets of the union by the courts and punitive fines/damages if they fall foul of this.
I don't think the union will get much public sympathy, just as the equally well paid printers and their unions didn't, quite the opposite and their actions ensured public support for Thatchers reforms.
Where members will have to be careful is that if they are deemed to be taking illegal action they could face being sued for damages and have their house reposessed to pay them.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I disagree. You only have to look at Avanti and TPE. Came very close to losing their contracts. Any TOC knows, that right now, sacking more than a couple of drivers is going to turn it into a complete and utter basket case. And I do genuinely believe in the case of most TOCs there are people higher up (the likes of Clarence Yard perhaps) who would step in and at least try to dissuade such suicidal actions.

There is no doubt "Clarence yard" is a very experienced man and although I have never met him, I do have a high regard for him, as one seasoned railwayman of 45 years service to another.

However, we are in a new era of railways in the UK where service and experience are actually a disadvantage and all the DfT want are unquestionable "yes men" which sheafs of qualifications, diplomas and the like, along with a stonkin Link'din account. Rishi's actions this week have proved that the railway system is foocqued and private motoring is the way forward. Sacking staff who resist the DfT stance will become commonplace. Take it from me. No single entity is more powerful than the DfT - even they will possibly bring the downfall of the tories at the next GE because it is the DfT who are extending the industrial action. The current government could have settle the dispute if they really wanted to, but instead have let the DfT ie Whitehall rule the roost.

I don't have any faith at all at in Kier's leadership of Labour, neither can I see the meeja supporting Labour in the run up to the GA. Neither can I see Labour making any significant changes to the direction the tories have take the industry. So don't think that RMT and Aslef wil be the winners in this.


Sorry to be depressing

 

[21C101]

There is no doubt "Clarence yard" is a very experienced man and although I have never met him, I do have a high regard for him, as one seasoned railwayman of 45 years service to another.

However, we are in a new era of railways in the UK where service and experience are actually a disadvantage and all the DfT want are unquestionable "yes men" which sheafs of qualifications, diplomas and the like, along with a stonkin Link'din account. Rishi's actions this week have proved that the railway system is foocqued and private motoring is the way forward. Sacking staff who resist the DfT stance will become commonplace. Take it from me. No single entity is more powerful than the DfT - even they will possibly bring the downfall of the tories at the next GE because it is the DfT who are extending the industrial action. The current government could have settle the dispute if they really wanted to, but instead have let the DfT ie Whitehall rule the roost.

I don't have any faith at all at in Kier's leadership of Labour, neither can I see the meeja supporting Labour in the run up to the GA. Neither can I see Labour making any significant changes to the direction the tories have take the industry. So don't think that RMT and Aslef wil be the winners in this.


Sorry to be depressing

Continued industrial action won't bring down the Tories - quite the opposite - and we can expect some spicy manifesto commitments along those lines.

Starmer needs to win almost as many seats as Blair did just to get a majority but he hasn't the charisma or ability of Kinnock, never mind Blair. This feels like 1992 all over again. Mid term people say they will vote for the opposition to kick the government, but when they look closely at the opposition and their policies in the run up to the election they will vote for who they fear least, even if it has to be done through gritted teeth as it was with Nice Mr Major then and Nice Mr Sunak now.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I think the mistake some staff are making is thinking that the government give a single toss whether the trains run or not. They don’t. They are actively making it harder to use public transport and easier to use private motor vehicles. They’re not going to do anything too draconian before the election, but they’re also not going to give a single inch. And if they win the next election - boy, we ain’t see nothing yet.

 

[Train_manager]

As if. The TOCs don't care a jot about the 'greater good'. They're only interested in complying with the contracts they have with the DfT; if the DfT says jump, they'll ask "how high".

The notion that "working to rule"-type actions such as this could stop minimum service levels from being enacted it fanciful in the extreme. Only politics can stop it, and union members' interests would be far better served by addressing that side of things rather than trying to play games.

Permanent over time ban. Call strike with the required notice by law then cancel last minute.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Carlisle]

As if. The TOCs don't care a jot about the 'greater good'. They're only interested in complying with the contracts they have with the DfT; if the DfT says jump, they'll ask "how high".

Absolutely, this weeks media frenzy around getting lost on 3 hour taxi journeys from Preston & Edinburgh proves this perfectly

 

[Bantamzen]

Permanent over time ban. Call strike with the required notice by law then cancel last minute.

Rinse and repeat.

Then wait for 15 months for a general election and hope that any new government prioritises the railway industrial action over everything else, which they probably won't. Sounds like a great idea....

 

[Train_manager]

Then wait for 15 months for a general election and hope that any new government prioritises the railway industrial action over everything else, which they probably won't. Sounds like a great idea....

It's a win, win for railway workers. No lost of pay and no requirement to cross a picket line.

Anyone who thinks Starmer is going to change anything will be in for a shock!!

 

[21C101]

Then wait for 15 months for a general election and hope that any new government prioritises the railway industrial action over everything else, which they probably won't. Sounds like a great idea....

The only winnable strategy is an indefinite all out and both ASLEF and the government know the drivers can't afford that.
Limited duration action is futile as people can work from home or change their travel plans, but does create public hostility towards the strikers inconveniencing them.
The government is quite happy to play the long game on this one. With their net zero policies a Beeching isn't an option so they are taking the Murdoch path.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think DfT, the TOCs and the unions have even gotten so far as to sit down and talk about how MSL will work at grass roots level. All I know is it is a massive amount of work for some TOCs to try and plan what to run, and swathes of route are just abandoned - ie Chiltern north of Banbury on strike weeks.

The issue is that ASLEF ballot members for strike action in a democratic manner (90+% results), so strikes are called, then DfT are trying to make drivers cross their own picket lines, and get paid to come to work. In other words do exactly the opposite to what they voted for, but worse. A trade union expects its members to unite in action - all to "feel the pain". Not going to work if say 15% of the union members have to cross their own picket lines.

Sounds like a terrible plan to me..

Have you been to places like Italy? I suspect not, as this "terrible plan" works fine there.

Of course, I wouldn't trust us here in the UK to execute anything as well as other countries, but as a concept, it is not "terrible" as it does work.

...Limited duration action is futile as people can work from home or change their travel plans, but does create public hostility towards the strikers inconveniencing them....

I don't think the Unions see that as a negative! As Lauren Cooper would say, they "aint bothered" at all about that, are they? Not in the slightest.

 

[21C101]

I don't think the Unions see that as a negative, they aint bothered at all about that, are they?

I'm sure you are right. But if the next election is a rerun of the 1992 election which I have a sneaking feeling it will be (for the reasons outlined above) they will live to bitterly regret it.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's a win, win for railway workers. No lost of pay and no requirement to cross a picket line.

It really isn't because it will still result in less revenue, which will give the government more reason to argue for more cuts in rail. You only have to see what is happening with HS2 to realise that the government will cut anything, at any time.

Anyone who thinks Starmer is going to change anything will be in for a shock!!

This I totally agree with. Any strategy that relies on Starmer coming to the rescue is pure madness!

The only winnable strategy is an indefinite all out and both ASLEF and the government know the drivers can't afford that.
Limited duration action is futile as people can work from home or change their travel plans, but does create public hostility towards the strikers inconveniencing them.
The government is quite happy to play the long game on this one. With their net zero policies a Beeching isn't an option so they are taking the Murdoch path.

Quite honestly I don't think even that would necessarily move the current government. They are dug in way too deep now to cave in, people sometimes forget that the hardcore Tory support still dreams of another Thatcher and she was prepared to destroy not only an entire industry, but millions of people's livelihoods to pursue her ideology. So caving into union demands remains an option that is sealed in a box with a label "Use only in an absolute emergency", that can only be opened with a demolition ball and two tons of dynamite for any Conservative government.

Bringing out my old record player and damaged LP, my view on this (and other) industrial disputes remains the same. Pick your fights carefully, and this one isn't going to be won with this government.

 

[al78]

I think the mistake some staff are making is thinking that the government give a single toss whether the trains run or not. They don’t. They are actively making it harder to use public transport and easier to use private motor vehicles. They’re not going to do anything too draconian before the election, but they’re also not going to give a single inch. And if they win the next election - boy, we ain’t see nothing yet.

Are they with expansion of ULEZ and 20 mph limits which a number of people seem to be up in arms about to the point of direct action protests?

As an alternative to disruption to passengers for the purpose of standing up to poor pay/working conditions/changes to working conditions, could public transport workers here ever consider doing what has been done in Japan. Over there, there was an occasion when bus drivers were involved in some dispute they didn't withdraw labour, they worked as normal but refused to take any fares. This enabled no inconvenience to the general public whilst hitting the bus companies with no revenue and having to pay for fuel.

 

[Watershed]

Are they with expansion of ULEZ and 20 mph limits which a number of people seem to be up in arms about to the point of direct action protests?

As an alternative to disruption to passengers for the purpose of standing up to poor pay/working conditions/changes to working conditions, could public transport workers here ever consider doing what has been done in Japan. Over there, there was an occasion when bus drivers were involved in some dispute they didn't withdraw labour, they worked as normal but refused to take any fares. This enabled no inconvenience to the general public whilst hitting the bus companies with no revenue and having to pay for fuel.

These are both policies instituted by local authorities or devolved governments despite the government's objections (and threats to curtail their powers).

The latter kind of non-disruptive strike action isn't something that would be protected in the same way as a normal strike. People taking part could be dismissed, possibly for gross misconduct.