Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[Train_manager]

Sorry, are you suggesting someone earning that is in some way not working class, despite frequently going home from work ****ten up to the eyeballs the way no middle class person does?

Because if so, you’re no less deluded than the others who mistakenly think that decent pay = middle class. It’s a blue collar job, with no bar to entry other than an ability to pass the assessment. What are the middle class professions that don’t need qualifications?

No it was the opposite.

Read my other posts. I'm out!!!!!!

 

[NI 271]

No it was the opposite.

Read my other posts. I'm out!!!!!!

No worries, I must have got the wrong end of the stick. I’ve grown tired of reading posts from people who consider rail staff Schrodinger’s employees, somehow simultaneously middle class professionals whilst being unworthy of their salaries or (more pertinently given the current dispute) their hard-won conditions because it’s ‘low-skilled’ work.

 

[317 forever]

If government don't care about railways why did they rescue TPE? Its just they are more bothered about appearing strong against the unions. But that isn't really playing well out in the real world, you only need to look at Thursdays by election results to see their policy of industrial unrest isn't popular amongst voters.

With this in mind, I wonder whether the Tories got even fewer votes in the by-elections than had there not been the RMT strike that day?

 

[choochoochoo]

Your choice of course, but you’ll get a ‘please explain‘ for the delay and be on the naughty step.

I'll just say there were lots of perceived hazards that day. Plus I'm stressed about crossing a picket line to go into work, so have to drive extra cautiously.

Not to mention my excessive dwell time at stations as my train will be heaving so platform duties will take much longer than usual to be extra cautious.

Happy to go on a naughty step for being on the right side of safety.

 

[CAF397]

Most workers aren't in unions

I listened to a Radio 5 segment the other day, when they were talking about the McDonald's staff reporting harassment and bullying, and complaints not being taken seriously.

The conversation moved on with parents ringing up complaining that their children were working whilst at university, asking for sociable hours but being given shifts that start or finish after public transport runs, or night shifts where they have to study during the day. Working 15 days on the trot, not being able to have a day off because their manager would fire them.

Nicky Campbell, and the other "experts" started talking about joining a union! I nearly spat my cup of tea out. They spend their time bashing the unions "Railways on strike again", "Doctors walking out", but then when the agenda suits actively highlight the good that unions do.

 

[vikingdriver]

I'll just say there were lots of perceived hazards that day. Plus I'm stressed about crossing a picket line to go into work, so have to drive extra cautiously.

Not to mention my excessive dwell time at stations as my train will be heaving so platform duties will take much longer than usual to be extra cautious.

Happy to go on a naughty step for being on the right side of safety.

Indeed that stress may become so much it'd be safest to stop the train until relieved!

 

[NI 271]

I listened to a Radio 5 segment the other day, when they were talking about the McDonald's staff reporting harassment and bullying, and complaints not being taken seriously.

The conversation moved on with parents ringing up complaining that their children were working whilst at university, asking for sociable hours but being given shifts that start or finish after public transport runs, or night shifts where they have to study during the day. Working 15 days on the trot, not being able to have a day off because their manager would fire them.

Nicky Campbell, and the other "experts" started talking about joining a union! I nearly spat my cup of tea out. They spend their time bashing the unions "Railways on strike again", "Doctors walking out", but then when the agenda suits actively highlight the good that unions do.

Weekends off, sick pay, annual leave, parental leave, H&S laws protecting the employee, just a few of the things secured by trade unions over the years which are enjoyed by employed people on here who actively dislike unions and union members, and openly state as much in their posts. Not one of them would give those things up willingly.

It’s a head-scratcher to me, however I’m mindful that you can explain things to people but you cannot understand it for them.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's sad that so many rejoice in the benefits and protections achieved by past union efforts but when it becomes inconvenient for them in the modern world because of political ineptitude leading to unrest, they weigh in against such an 'outdated' organisations! Extremely selective memories!

 

[newtownmgr]

Not the case I'm afraid:

"Minimum service regulations may be framed so as to have effect in relation to any strike that takes place after the day on which the regulations come into force, even if—
(a) notice of the strike under section 234A was given on or before the day on which the regulations come into force,
or
(b) the date of the ballot in respect of the strike was on or before the day on which the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023 comes into force."



"234E Work notices: no protection if union fails to take reasonable steps

(1) Where an employer gives a trade union a work notice in relation to a strike, an act done by the union to induce a person to take part, or to continue to take part, in the strike is not protected as respects that person’s employer if— (a) the work notice is given in accordance with section 234C, and
(b) the union fails to take reasonable steps to ensure that all members of the union who are identified in the work notice comply with the notice.

(2) In proceedings in tort that are brought against a trade union in reliance on paragraph (b) of subsection (1), any loss that would have been suffered even if the union had taken the reasonable steps mentioned in that paragraph is to be disregarded in calculating any amount to be awarded against the union by way of damages."

So basically the Union is on the hook for damages if people who are issued work notices, strike on the day they have a work notice.



The employer will issue the work notice. The Union will be liable if a member of staff who has been issued a work notice, strikes on the day mentioned in the work notice.

My mistake. I assume they must have changed it then from the original bill.

Not an issue. Permanent overtime ban is the way forward then. As long as you are working as per your contract they can’t touch you. With no overtime in place there will be no detachment of instructors to allow training to take place. Every depot on my company as shortages of traincrew. So different trains cancelled on different days.

Shapps tried to suggest that overtime could be banned to stop strikers recovering lost money. He soon backtracked when he realised every company runs on overtime.

 

[Robertj21a]

Do you really think membership would be holding up if members did not think that that unions were relevant? Away from newsworthy industrial disputes (members don’t actually really want to strike), unions normally work with employers to avoid industrial disputes. How is that a lessening of relevance?


But the current CONservative government can’t prevent competition from other industries, from open access operators, other private railway companies or operators controlled by regional governments.

If employees are not happy, they will look for alternatives. If enough leave, any savings in holding their pay down, or imposing working practices that they don’t like will eventually be offset by the increased costs of having to hire and train more new staff.

Surely, the easiest answer for some TOCs is to not now bother attempting to replace staff who leave? It may become easier, and cheaper, to just cut services a little until the rota matches the staff available.

 

[Dave91131]

I'll just say there were lots of perceived hazards that day. Plus I'm stressed about crossing a picket line to go into work, so have to drive extra cautiously.

Not to mention my excessive dwell time at stations as my train will be heaving so platform duties will take much longer than usual to be extra cautious.

Happy to go on a naughty step for being on the right side of safety.

How pathetic and childish.

 

[JamesT]

Isn't MSL a means not to have more services on strikes day but to make unions more liable to being sued?

I'm a bit confused about MSL for Ambulance services, I thought during a strike, they have people on call for life and limb cover.

My understanding with the strikes in the NHS is that the current cover during a strike is essentially a local agreement based on goodwill. Whereas a MSL would put it on a legal footing.

 

[choochoochoo]

How pathetic and childish.

Not really. My TOC are more than welcome to put platform staff at each station to dispatch me if they want to reduce my dwell times.

 

[RHolmes]

How pathetic and childish.

That’s how I pretty much describe the current government

 

[newtownmgr]

That’s how I pretty much describe the current government

Fully agree.

 

[Bald Rick]

What are the middle class professions that don’t need qualifications?

My job.

However I don’t know if I’m middle class or not.

And what is a “qualification”? Youll be hard pushed to find a train driver under 50 without some decent GCSEs or higher, and certainly without having passed relevant driving qualifications.

 

[SteveL9]

It's sad that so many rejoice in the benefits and protections achieved by past union efforts but when it becomes inconvenient for them in the modern world because of political ineptitude leading to unrest, they weigh in against such an 'outdated' organisations! Extremely selective memories!

I was going to post similar but you’ve saved me a job. I don’t know what people think the alternative is. Those assuming “The market” would give them lovely pay and conditions need to spend some time working in an Amazon warehouse.

 

[Bantamzen]

And how are things materially different? People still need an income to buy food, clothes, pay for somewhere to live etc. Inflation/rising prices still erode the living standards of people. Hence quite rightly they don’t want to lose out. Similarly, we are supposed to be improving family life, not eroding it further.

None of this justifies treating a fellow human as inferior or badly simply because they choose not to strike. Striking is a right, but so is not striking. Quite frankly it is very much the fault of people who abuse others for not striking that there has been a move away from unions. And I know this from personal experience as a rep. Calling someone a "scab" is a behaviour of dinosaurs and belongs firmly in the past.

Do you honestly think that an anti-trade union CONservative government were not going to introduce legislation like this? They were going to bring this in regardless. The only difference is in which excuses they get to use.

Let me flip that around. Do you honestly think the Tories didn't use all these current disputes as an excuse to put this legislation through? The unions gave them the perfect excuse to do so, and did so in full knowledge that this might happen. Sadly, as is often the case with them these days, egos and self importance took over and they believed that the government wouldn't dare. This one, I am sorry to say, is on the unions. I've said it before and I will say it again, pick your fights carefully. Unions don't always win disputes, and sometimes disputes can make things a lot worse. Just like this.

People can define “working class” anyway they like. However, in reality, there are really only five groups that I can think of:

• People who have to go to work to obtain enough money to live on. This includes the self employed who have to work.
• People who already have enough money to live on, or have enough income from savings and investments, or from income from property or similar. Hence don’t have to work if they don’t choose to.
• People who rely on the income from their partner or family.
• Pensioners who have enough income, hence don’t have to work.
• People who don’t have enough income, or who are unable to work, and hence rely on benefits.

Of course there are a lot of people who think they are middle class. But how many could survive without benefits if they were unable to work for six months or more (not including sick pay)? In other words, really, they ARE working class.

Yes, many may disagree with the above, but then it very quickly becomes semantics where the division is between each “class”. Especially as what is skilled work is also a grey area. The work that I do for example, is skilled work, but a train driver is on more money than me. And if I were to work overtime, I would get paid nearly the same or more than my manager. So which of us, if any, is classed as middle class?

I'm not interested in a debate on class. I was simply making the point that unsociable working hours do not necessarily mean it is a working class job. There are very few people who would regard someone on £60K (or thereabouts) as being working class even if it means rolling home at 5am.

 

[footprints]

My mistake. I assume they must have changed it then from the original bill.

Not an issue. Permanent overtime ban is the way forward then. As long as you are working as per your contract they can’t touch you. With no overtime in place there will be no detachment of instructors to allow training to take place. Every depot on my company as shortages of traincrew. So different trains cancelled on different days.

Shapps tried to suggest that overtime could be banned to stop strikers recovering lost money. He soon backtracked when he realised every company runs on overtime.

And for those TOCs where the overtime ban is clearly having no effect now, such as Avanti?

 

[dk1]

And for those TOCs where the overtime ban is clearly having no effect now, such as Avanti?

Remember that it's not always obvious to see. Training and other such operations behind the scenes are often taking a greater hit.

 

[newtownmgr]

Remember that it's not always obvious to see. Training and other such operations behind the scenes are often taking a greater hit.

Correct. That’s the bigger problem they face. Training massively behind schedule

 

[northwichcat]

There’s this thing called ‘freight’. Maybe google could help you?

So your role isn't one of the ones being consulted on. You don't work for a train operator providing passenger services and you don't drive passenger trains.

From the original post
"This will follow public consultations on the most appropriate approach for delivering Minimum Service Levels in passenger rail and blue light services."

I'm not sure how Google could have told me that you don't work for in passenger rail. Perhaps I missed that you included your full name somewhere so I could find your Linkedin profile via Google?

with no bar to entry other than an ability to pass the assessment.

Other than industries that discriminate, passing one or more assessments is normally how you get qualified enough to do any skilled role. Your argument seems to be because your employer paid to train you to the required standard, rather than expecting you to already be qualified when you first applied, you're working class.

What are the middle class professions that don’t need qualifications?

An MP?

 

[dk1]

Correct. That’s the bigger problem they face. Training massively behind schedule

Not going to be helpful with 805/807s needing full attention soon but there you go.

 

[Trothy]

None of this justifies treating a fellow human as inferior or badly simply because they choose not to strike. Striking is a right, but so is not striking. Quite frankly it is very much the fault of people who abuse others for not striking that there has been a move away from unions. And I know this from personal experience as a rep. Calling someone a "scab" is a behaviour of dinosaurs and belongs firmly in the past.

Once again, no-one is being abused

In a highly unionised workplace, anyone who decideds to ignore the democratic manadate of a union and break a strike is going to be unpopular with their colleagues, especially those who are stood on the picket line you may have to cross.

Whether you get called a scab, a strikebreaker, a blackleg, a quisling or simply "a person who worked the strike"

If you feel morally justified in choosing to work when your colleagues are out on strike, such names should be like water off a ducks back.

You clearly have a pretty warped view of what the trade union movement is all about and stands for.

I wouldn't cross anyone elses picket line let alone my own. That is what solidarity as a concept is all about.

 

[northwichcat]

Whether you get called a scab, a strikebreaker, a blackleg, a quisling or simply "a person who worked the strike"

Workplaces are supposed to have anti-bullying policies. If someone complained to their manager/HR department about abusive words being shouted at them by a colleague, they have a legal responsibility to investigate. If they don't then they might be the top news story on BBC, as some of the McDonalds super franchise owners were this week. Just because something was OK in the 1970s doesn't mean it's OK now. There's been a lot of positive changes in how the country deals with mental health problems in recent years. If some trade union members want to sabotage that progress, then I'm happy to see those thugs sacked and to have to resort to work in less attractive roles instead.

 

[Bantamzen]

Once again, no-one is being abused

In a highly unionised workplace, anyone who decideds to ignore the democratic manadate of a union and break a strike is going to be unpopular with their colleagues, especially those who are stood on the picket line you may have to cross.

Whether you get called a scab, a strikebreaker, a blackleg, a quisling or simply "a person who worked the strike"

If you feel morally justified in choosing to work when your colleagues are out on strike, such names should be like water off a ducks back.

You clearly have a pretty warped view of what the trade union movement is all about and stands for.

I wouldn't cross anyone elses picket line let alone my own. That is what solidarity as a concept is all about.

I'm sorry but you and I both know what that term means on how it is used. I'm frankly staggered that you continue to try and defend it.

 

[Watershed]

Once again, no-one is being abused

In a highly unionised workplace, anyone who decideds to ignore the democratic manadate of a union and break a strike is going to be unpopular with their colleagues, especially those who are stood on the picket line you may have to cross.

Whether you get called a scab, a strikebreaker, a blackleg, a quisling or simply "a person who worked the strike"

If you feel morally justified in choosing to work when your colleagues are out on strike, such names should be like water off a ducks back.

You clearly have a pretty warped view of what the trade union movement is all about and stands for.

I wouldn't cross anyone elses picket line let alone my own. That is what solidarity as a concept is all about.

Anyone called those names would be entitled to submit a grievance to their HR department. Whether any such grievance would be upheld is another matter, but TOCs frequently send out communications to staff before strikes, warning them not to bully or harass colleagues who choose to work.

 

[Trothy]

Once again, no-one is being abused or bullied.

I stood on picket lines this year, no-one was shouting anything at people choosing to work. They were asked not to go into work and to respect the picket line. If they chose to go in and work they did.

However if those same people people expect me to engage in small talk and interactions beyond what is required of me at work they will be reminded that "they worked the strike" and I don't really have any interest in any relationship beyond a professional working one.

Again, actions have consequences, in the same way I wouldn't be striking up friendly conversations if I found out a colleague voted BNP, I'm not obliged to be your friend if you worked a strike.

I'm sorry but you and I both know what that term means on how it is used. I'm frankly staggered that you continue to try and defend it.

Language evolves. Do you think anyone born after 1990 (especially outside of former mining communities) feels as strongly about that word as you do?

 

[choochoochoo]

Remember that it's not always obvious to see. Training and other such operations behind the scenes are often taking a greater hit.

Exactly.

At Great Northern, they're supposed to train the drivers who'll be driving on the Northern City Line a 2 week ETCS course for it's rollout next year apparently.

Think that's over 200 drivers needing 2 weeks off roster. Without overtime, I'm not sure how it can be achieved.

 

[dk1]

Exactly.

At Great Northern, they're supposed to train the drivers who'll be driving on the Northern City Line a 2 week ETCS course for it's rollout next year apparently.

Think that's over 200 drivers needing 2 weeks off roster. Without overtime, I'm not sure how it can be achieved.

I can see the working to rule becoming 'until further notice' before long.