Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[Mag_seven]

Has anyone got anything more to say about the Minimum Service Levels Bill with particular emphasis on the likely affect on the railway?

 

[172007]

Should force TOC's to bring Sundays into the working week and not enforced overtime or voluntary.

 

[Tractor2018]

A

Remember that it's not always obvious to see. Training and other such operations behind the scenes are often taking a greater hit.

Avanti have put a financial package on the table to get 805 training done, they're that desperate. However, it's not been authorised by the DfT............what could possibly change there, and the outcome be?

 

[dk1]

A


Avanti have put a financial package on the table to get 805 training done, they're that desperate. However, it's not been authorised by the DfT............what could possibly change there, and the outcome be?

Interesting times.

I wonder if they’ll go into store short term.

 

[northwichcat]

For the bill to be effective on the railways, complete shutdowns of lines need to be eliminated on strike days. The RMT Northern strikes on Saturdays went on for months and they created social isolation in towns where the rail service provides the main transport link. It meant those without cars were stuck at home on days they weren't working.

It's also not that easy to change the date you fly out from an airport to a non-strike day, nor change the date you've been invited for a job interview if it's one where the employer put a fixed interview date on the original job advert.

 

[Class 317]

As someone who is unable to due for health reasons I'm generally in favour of the principal of MSL. The recent prolonged periods of strike action have created times of social isolation and caused me both mental and physical hardship.

On the other hand I also completely support the right to strike as a fundamental right everyone should have if they would like to be a union member. Having taken my time to consider the MSL legislation and discussed it with my friend who is a lawyer who works with unions, I don't believe it removes the right to strike but by requiring a minimum service for essential travel it does remove the hardship caused to others with no alternative travel options whilst retaining most of the effects of strikes that give unions power.

I think in some ways the MSL will strengthen the hands of unions. This is because the unions will still get the majority of the effect of a strike but the financial effects on their members from prolonged action will be reduced leading to less financial pressure on their members. Also public support is likely to be stronger as essential journeys will still be possible even if they are more difficult.

I can see plenty of legal challenges coming from both operators and unions around the details of what an MSL is in practice. I feel it will all come down to a test of reasonableness when cases are taken to court. As an example a court may deem it reasonable to have PW cover for emergency track inspections but not having staff cover to repair the faults reported.

I also see it is in the interests of operators to use the minimum staff required to run the MSL timetable as this will reduce their costs to the minimum. I'm sure a challenge to the first MSL timetable will be launched by the unions over the level of service required.

There's also likely to be legal challenges over how it interacts with discrimination legislation and who has to work.

I think the devil will certainly be in the details with this one.

 

[Horizon22]

I can see plenty of legal challenges coming from both operators and unions around the details of what an MSL is in practice. I feel it will all come down to a test of reasonableness when cases are taken to court. As an example a court may deem it reasonable to have PW cover for emergency track inspections but not having staff cover to repair the faults reported.

I also see it is in the interests of operators to use the minimum staff required to run the MSL timetable as this will reduce their costs to the minimum. I'm sure a challenge to the first MSL timetable will be launched by the unions over the level of service required.

There's also likely to be legal challenges over how it interacts with discrimination legislation and who has to work.

I think the devil will certainly be in the details with this one.

Absolutely. And that might be its downfall if it can’t practically work in a fair and reasonable way. Some have suggested how it could, but that’s far from confirmed.

 

[ComUtoR]

As someone who is unable to due for health reasons I'm generally in favour of the principal of MSL.

How so ? Are your health problems such that you need to travel by public transport at specific times of the day ? How would the MSL benefit you ?

Cheers in advance

Having taken my time to consider the MSL legislation and discussed it with my friend who is a lawyer who works with unions, I don't believe it removes the right to strike but by requiring a minimum service for essential travel it does remove the hardship caused to others with no alternative travel options whilst retaining most of the effects of strikes that give unions power.

I'm out on the lash next week and friends are coming from around the country. My latest train home is 1845 but we aren't even meeting till 1800. The venue is paid for no chance of a refund or reorganisation (this is the second attempt) Do you really believe that a MSL would ameliorate my problem ?

The introduced Bill appears to be a lot of flannel and lacking in detail. There is no specification as to what a MSL will look like. This could be as little as 1 AM service and 1 PM service and nothing after 1900. It could be 1 train every two hours. I'm not convinced that the MSL is anything more than an attack on the Unions with little to no substance for the travelling public or how it will affect other sectors. Does this mean that Teachers will only teach core subjects on a strike day and only 1 class in the morning ? How many Teachers are needed on a day to day basis ?

 

[12LDA28C]

If you get up at ridiculous hours of the day to go to work you’re working class.

Train driving hasn't been a 'working class' job for many years. A 60k salary which attracts doctors, lawyers and the like into the grade cannot be described as working class.

If train drivers were working class on the salaries pre-90s (and it'd take a very vivid imagination to pretend they weren't, nobody would have called them middle class then), they're working class today. A change in salary doesn't dictate whether a person is working class or not, their job does that.

The media has spent 40 years trying to convince working class people that they're middle class, because they knew full well that if they could convince them of that, a huge slice of them would vote the way they perceive middle class people to vote. Regretfully for our country, it worked.

Quite right, the job defines if you're working class or not. Train driving in 2023 is very different to train driving in 1933 or 1973. You have to sit tests/exams to get a driving job now, the uniform is often akin to a suit and it's extremely rare that you have to get your hands dirty. Solicitors, Bank Managers and Doctors all apply to be a train driver these days due to the salary provided. Working class? Not any more.

 

[NI 271]

the uniform is often akin to a suit and it's extremely rare that you have to get your hands dirty

I guess my job must be all in my head then. No idea why I keep getting paid though, if it doesn't exist, nor how my not-remotely-like-a-suit uniform/hands get in the state they do.

I'll get someone to pinch me tomorrow, perhaps it's all a dream and that'll snap me into reality?

 

[Class 170101]

b) that every single driver chose not to sign up to new terms and conditions, and leaves the industry altogether, which is extraordinarily unlikely.

Could we actually see this though? How many drivers (and indeed other grades) are approaching either actual retirement or railway age retirement? The population as a whole is getting older as various experts keep telling us.

A more realistic worst case assessment is that there would be weeks of disruption in terms of reduced services, longer for some lines, but a normal service within a year.

Though I guess that could be worse still with an overtime ban and thus take longer than a year to recover.

 

[dk1]

Could we actually see this though? How many drivers (and indeed other grades) are approaching either actual retirement or railway age retirement? The population as a whole is getting older as various experts keep telling us.

I’m looking at retiring around 10 years early but are happy to ride this one through beforehand.

 

[Bald Rick]

Though I guess that could be worse still with an overtime ban and thus take longer than a year to recover.

Not sure how there could be an overtime ban if everyone is on new contracts, and/or the service is designed to be per step without overtime.

 

[Class 170101]

Not sure how there could be an overtime ban if everyone is on new contracts, and/or the service is designed to be per step without overtime.

I'm confused, surely overtime is overtime whatever contract you are on?

 

[Starmill]

I assume if Labour gets into power then they'll scrap it.

That's what we might call a heroic assumption.

I'm pretty sure it's designed to help the travelling public

I don't think that Ministers are remotely bothered about that. If they were they'd be trying to actually settle the disputes rather than provoking them.

If a union is prevented from taking official action, if the workforce are angry enough, they may just walk out anyway (unofficial strike). And none of the current laws can do anything about that.

Employees are free to do that at any time. Nobody is compelled to come to work. It's simply that if that happens they can't rely on the lawful protection for taking strike action if they're dismissed.

Drivers can also drive their trains at a speed they deem safe !! Linespeed is a limit not a target !!

So I'll be driving my trains very slow on MSL days. Ruining any form of timetable the planners attempt to make.

Attempts at "malicious compliance" will see your usual disciplinary process triggered. That's 100% your choice. The company will be obliged to follow the process.

If i’m not wrong, you lose the protection of dismissal after the first 12 weeks of Industrial Action anyway! I’m yet to see anyone dismissed thus far and disputes across many sectors are way into their 12 month anniversary let alone 12 weeks.

You can't claim a dismissal was automatically unfair if there was a dispute that lasted longer than twelve weeks. You can still make a Tribunal claim, if your service is long enough to be eligible for one, though, and claim your dismissal was unfair.

agreed, but as the DfT operators are roughly 2/3 of the ‘market’, they will have a very strong influence on the market.

Indeed. And it's uneven across the country, in certain parts they're not far off the only employer of train drivers, because FOC depots nearby are so small.

 

[irish_rail]

That's what we might call a heroic assumption.

Yawn..... I don't get this whole "Labour won't change anything and everything will be the same". It smacks of right wing Tory voters who are getting desperate at the realisation that they soon won't hold power. We need to give Labour a chance before writing them off. If after 4 or 5 years of Starmer as PM , nothing has changed for the better , then fine, but I think its a fair bet that Labour will be way better for industrial relations than the awful Tory party.

 

[Starmill]

FOC GBrf currently paying 66.3k that's around Avanti WC money. A bit of RDW and you can earn +80k without trying.

Salaries at GB Railfreight and Avanti West Coast may be close enough, however other conditions are rather different.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If you get up at ridiculous hours of the day to go to work you’re working class.

What about someone like me that has worked nights and gone in at 3am to run an infrared spectrum on a resin batch so production could continue and the company did not leta custodian? Or during COVID doing 12 hour night shifts to make hand sanitizers?

ridiculous-assertion.

 

[Starmill]

Yawn...

Same to you.

I don't get this whole "Labour won't change anything and everything will be the same".

I didn't say that and I don't agree with it.

It smacks of right wing Tory voters who are getting desperate at the realisation that they soon won't hold power.

I can assure you that I have never voted Conservative, and never will

We need to give Labour a chance before writing them off.

I'm certainly not writing them off.

We need to give Labour a chance before writing them off. If after 4 or 5 years of Starmer as PM , nothing has changed for the better , then fine, but I think its a fair bet that Labour will be way better for industrial relations than the awful Tory party.

The relationship would undoubtedly improve. There can be no question there.

However it's wrong to say that the law will be changed by a Labour-led Commons. It would also be absolutely wrong to say that railways or transport will be their top priority. They can't change everything in one term. But you don't need to take my word for that, Reeves and Starmer are being honest and saying that up front. Nobody can predict anything at all about the general election after the upcoming one, as it's way too far off.

 

[irish_rail]

Same to you.

I didn't say that and I don't agree with it.

I can assure you that I have never voted Conservative, and never will

I'm certainly not writing them off.

The relationship would undoubtedly improve. There can be no question there.

However it's wrong to say that the law will be changed by a Labour-led Commons. It would also be absolutely wrong to say that railways or transport will be their top priority. They can't change everything in one term. But you don't need to take my word for that, Reeves and Starmer are being honest and saying that up front. Nobody can predict anything at all about the general election after the upcoming one, as it's way too far off.

Apologies if I have misread this, but I am referring to a group who trot out the same boring statements about how nothing will change with Labour in power. To assume this is your view was obviusley wrong. But sadly there are alot of people out there who parrot this statement and it grates!

 

[ComUtoR]

Apologies if I have misread this, but I am referring to a group who trot out the same boring statements about how nothing will change with Labour in power. To assume this is your view was obviusley wrong. But sadly there are alot of people out there who parrot this statement and it grates!

Just as much as those who believe Labour is the panacea and will bring about Utopia. I'd like what some of them are smoking.

 

[irish_rail]

Just as much as those who believe Labour is the panacea and will bring about Utopia. I'd like what some of them are smoking.

So do you suggest we give the Tories 5 more years?

 

[Starmill]

Apologies if I have misread this, but I am referring to a group who trot out the same boring statements about how nothing will change with Labour in power. To assume this is your view was obviusley wrong. But sadly there are alot of people out there who parrot this statement and it grates!

What I'm saying is quite the opposite. It's that people are wrong to complain about things that aren't top-priority to any incoming Labour-led government being passed over just because they're their pet issue. The reality is that Starmer is correctly setting expectations that are realistic, and if you inflate those expectations you'll be judging him and his future Cabinet very unfairly, while failing to target the actual culprits (the current Prime Minister and Cabinet) with any responsibility.

This issue is never going to be top priority. It's important, but not as important as other things.

 

[12LDA28C]

I guess my job must be all in my head then. No idea why I keep getting paid though, if it doesn't exist, nor how my not-remotely-like-a-suit uniform/hands get in the state they do.

I'll get someone to pinch me tomorrow, perhaps it's all a dream and that'll snap me into reality?

I'm guessing you don't work for a passenger operator because that's certainly not my experience. Of course it would be different on the freight if you need to couple / uncouple a loco and suchlike.

 

[Starmill]

I'm confused, surely overtime is overtime whatever contract you are on?

I suspect Bald Rick is proposing a change of contracted hours.

 

[ComUtoR]

So do you suggest we give the Tories 5 more years?

It isn't my place to suggest anything. Labour vs Conservative is also part of the problem. You may vote whichever way you please. What may be right for you, might not be the same for me but saying that one is magically better than the other just means you are still drinking the 'Kool-aid.'

 

[Krokodil]

For the bill to be effective on the railways, complete shutdowns of lines need to be eliminated on strike days.

Which makes you wonder how this will work with respect to signalling.

Train driving hasn't been a 'working class' job for many years. A 60k salary which attracts doctors, lawyers and the like into the grade cannot be described as working class.

Money has almost no relevance to class, it's all about social status. Many footballers are worth millions, but you wouldn't describe them as upper class, would you? They're not even middle class. With a few exceptions (such as Beckham) who have become accepted among high society, could you see the likes of the Rooneys being invited to one of Hyacinth Bucket's candlelit suppers?

You have to sit tests/exams to get a driving job now

You always did. They've changed over the years, but the interview for an Engine Cleaner's job in the 1950s included tasks such as taking a dictation.

the uniform is often akin to a suit

Rarely. Polo shirts or similar garments seem to be the most common attire among driver grades. Guards at some TOCs do wear suits, which doesn't really compute with your simplistic "you can't earn loads if you're working class" because guards aren't on driver's wages.

it's extremely rare that you have to get your hands dirty

I don't think that a toll booth attendant gets their hands dirty all that often.

Solicitors, Bank Managers and Doctors all apply to be a train driver these days

So do soldiers, stone masons and police constables. Are they middle class?

Mind you, none of your statements about class are as laughable as the poster yesterday who said that the working classes are all unskilled. I challenge him to say to a lathe operator that he's either unskilled, or middle class.

Shall we consult the experts?

NRS social grades

A	Upper middle class	Higher managerial roles, administrative or professional
B	Middle middle class	Intermediate managerial roles, administrative or professional
C1	Lower middle class	Supervisory or clerical and junior managerial roles, administrative or professional
C2	Skilled working class	Skilled manual workers
D	Working class	Semi-skilled and unskilled manual workers
E	Non-working	State pensioners, casual and lowest grade workers, unemployed with state benefits only

Everyone represented by ASLEF is C2 skilled working class, as are most of RMT with some D working class.

 

[ComUtoR]

I suspect Bald Rick is proposing a change of contracted hours.

A change to contracted hours is meaningless. Overtime will always exist in that scenario. I believe the suggestion is that the staffing level must reflect the service level. When the service reduces there is enough staff to cover it (in theory).

However, as TOC staff continually point out; that completely misses the point. It's not the service level which is the concern. The staffing level doesn't reflect the needs of the business. My TOC will easily hit its service level but we do this because there is an internal sacrifice of the needs of the buisness. Looks great on paper, reality however, kinda sucks.

 

[Snow1964]

City AM is reporting MPs have set the tests that will need to be applied to the minimum service levels

MPs have set the Government a series of tests over its controversial new law on minimum levels of service during rail strikes.

The Transport Select Committee outlined a number of principles for what ministers should include in regulations due to be published following the passing of legislation.

The MPs said a minimum service level provided on strike days should be at least as good as typically provided on previous strike days and safety on the network for staff and the travelling public must be the “primary consideration”.

The committee also called for minimum service levels to be flexible enough to be applied to different patterns of industrial action affecting different employers, and said greater responsibilities placed on those who must work on strike days to provide a minimum service must be reflected in pay and conditions.

“Resilience in staffing must be improved so that there are trained alternatives able to cover for specialised staff who may want to exercise their right to strike,” said the report.

The committee added that services — or credible alternatives — should be available to passengers in all areas of the country normally served by the network, and those with access needs should receive the same support as they are entitled to on regular travel days.

“Among the most vital of those nine tests are around safety and accessibility.

“We can’t accept an increased risk of lives being put in danger due to a lack of key staff such as signallers, or of those with access needs being neglected if they experience difficulty.”

Transport Select Committee sets tests for rail strike minimum service levels

MPs have set the Government a series of tests over its controversial new law on minimum levels of service during rail strikes.

www.cityam.com

 

[Spartacus]

“Resilience in staffing must be improved so that there are trained alternatives able to cover for specialised staff who may want to exercise their right to strike,” said the report.

A nonsense statement as of course anyone trained in the relevant discipline would have the legal right to join the relevant union and also exercise their right to strike