Misinformation from platform officer

[AlterEgo]

In what other industry would someone be penalised for following the information given by a member of staff? I love railways, but sometimes (more frequently nowadays) I wonder if TOCs really understand the concept of customer care.

It depends on what question was asked and whether the platform assistant looked at the OP’s ticket. Frequently, staff are lazy or feckless and simply don’t bother to start the exchange with “thanks, can you show me your ticket first please?”

 

[Ben Rhydding]

The fundamental cause of this incident was disruption to the service. Whilst cancellation of the 14.30 to York (direct) shouldn`t have impacted on the OP`s journey, it is only because that train was cancelled that he ended up being advised to catch the Trans Pennine. It is entirely plausible that the OP was advised by a member of staff to board the Trans Pennine.

Of course, the OP should have known that his ticket was only valid on the 14.29 via Harrogate and that this train is advertised only as far as Poppleton. But equally, the staff member should have studied the OP`s ticket in detail and advised him that his train was running and that the cancelled one was something different.

But the OP and the staff member are both human. Both responded wrongly to the cancellation of the 14.30. The penalty fare is invalid if the staff member authorised use of the Trans Pennine. Given the OP`s explanation and the confusing circumstances, there appears a strong possibility that the staff member did so, albeit that he was mistaken. It would be difficult for the Railway to prove otherwise.

The OP has said that he actually wanted to travel the indirect route via Harrogate. In which case, he did not gain any advantage from the earlier arrival in York by the Trans Pennine. He was denied the journey he wished to make by his misunderstanding the difference between the 14.30 York and the 14.29 Poppleton. But his mistaken belief that his train had been cancelled was confirmed by the staff member not exercising sufficient vigilance.

In the circumstances, the staff member can probably be forgiven. But so can the OP.

 

[Starmill]

But did the OP ever show the member of staff their ticket? Seems that only cancellation of the 1430 was ever discussed.

The OP implies in post 1 and states in post 8 that they did show their phone to the member of staff.

 

[melevittfl]

OP should have known […] that this train is advertised only as far as Poppleton.

I think it’s completely unreasonable to expect anyone who isn’t a train enthusiast to know that. Especially someone who is new to the country or doesn’t use the trains very often.

 

[fandroid]

Another victim of Northern's predatory pricing? Super cheap misnamed "Advance" fares offered on long-winded routes no-one would normally bother with, leaving a trail of victims with fellow nationalised railway, TPE, picking up a nice little earner as a result.

Sorry, that's a rant that doesn't help the OP. My advice would be to appeal, appeal, appeal, and if those fail, complain vociferously to Northern about the trap they've dumped them into and ask for a refund of the penalty and compensation on top

 

[Ben Rhydding]

The issue is whether the OP was authorised by a member of railway staff. There appears evidence that the OP enquired in sufficient detail to enable the staff member to give appropriate advice. It doesn`t matter that the advice given was incorrect. It wouldn`t even matter if the member of staff was exceeding his or her authority.

In the circumstances, with the service disrupted, it is credible to believe that a member of staff could have given an answer without investigating in the required depth.

It may be impossible for the OP to prove that authorisation was given. But it would be even more difficult for the Railway to prove that it wasn`t.

 

[ruvgeff]

I read this thread and I was really surprised just how much it sounds like my own experience at Leeds station yesterday.

I had a ticket for the 15:51 from Leeds to Durham. Just after 15:43, a train arrived at the same platform that mine was scheduled to leave from, with the same final destination (Newcastle).

I asked a Trans Penine Express employee if this was the right train. I showed them my ticket with the exact time and route on it and explained that my eyesight is very poor (I have glasses but I'd lost them earlier in the day) so I wanted advice to make sure I don't get on the wrong train.

She told me it was indeed my train and then an hour later I got a penalty fare just after Darlington! I thought this was really unfair and disproportionate, given that the train was something like 30% full so I wasn't taking up anyone's seat. It was also a really easy mistake to make, given that the 15:43 must have arrived late and had the same destination, stops and platform as my allocated train and arrived less than 10 minutes before mine was due to depart. I was especially annoyed that I'd checked this with a member of staff given that I couldn't see the boards properly!

I doubt it'd be the same staff member seeing as the OP mentioned they were on Northern and mine was TPE, but obviously a serious issue with misinformation going on at Leeds station! I've now lodged an appeal.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think it’s completely unreasonable to expect anyone who isn’t a train enthusiast to know that. Especially someone who is new to the country or doesn’t use the trains very often.

Agreed. The Dutch railways will advertise the actual destination, no matter how long winded the route. For example, at Rotterdam the train to Venlo runs via Amsterdam and Utrecht taking an hour longer than a direct train to Eindhoven.

 

[Western Sunset]

So now we have two customers at the same station, given incorrect information (albeit doubtless given in all good faith), that has resulted in them being given a penalty. Neither customer was trying to gain an advantage, either timewise or monetary. They both had valid tickets, so they thought after asking representatives of TOCs. Yet they received a penalty. This can't be right, this can't be right.

 

[bb21]

This is a perfect example of how a false destination ends up misleading an occasional user of the railway with horrific consequences.

Some parts of the industry are terribly disjointed and information provision, so crucial to anyone less than proficient with the operational and revenue side of the industry, often falls short largely due to inconsistencies.

How on earth would an ordinary passenger unfamiliar with the area know that a train not advertised to go to their destination on the ticket is actually going there, and not the one a minute later operated by the same company? It is madness. If we were to sell a ticket to York (especially one only valid on booked train) but advertise the train only to Poppleton then this must be made clear on the ticket to the customer ("train will be advertised as terminating in Poppleton"). This is not beyond the realms of possibility with the host of technology available nowadays, provided there is the will to improve information clarity and have customers' needs at heart.

The industry is very good at parroting messages like "see it, say it, sorted", but shockingly oblivious to the hardship (financial and psychological) of those on the receiving end of the industry's ignorance to what is actually important to the customer.

Yes, I think there are excellent grounds for appeal due both to the inconsistency of information provision and possibly the member of staff not adopting best practice and seek to confirm the customer's original travel plans by examining their ticket.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The issue here is not the passenger’s destination, but the final destination of the train, which is the only thing which will ever be shown.

 

[zapper_09]

Random question about fines:
I was charged $118.40 (pounds) with an amount of 68.40 pounds (if paid within 21 days).
However, upon reading https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9/made

9.—(1) Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person traveling by, present on, or leaving a train, the penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

Was I overcharged for this one-stop journey or is it standard TPE policy to give 100 pounds + ticket cost?

Random question about fines:
I was charged $118.40 (pounds) with an amount of 68.40 pounds (if paid within 21 days).
However, upon reading https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9/made

9.—(1) Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person traveling by, present on, or leaving a train, the penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

Was I overcharged for this one-stop journey or is it standard TPE policy to give 100 pounds + ticket cost?

Woops - so the following was introduced.

On 23 January 2023, a new penalty fare of £100 plus the cost of a ticket for the passenger’s journey on that train will come into force.

 

[anothertyke]

The issue here is not the passenger’s destination, but the final destination of the train, which is the only thing which will ever be shown.

There are two sorts of screens at Leeds. Before the ticket barrier there is a departures board showing the destinations and all calling points. In the case of the 1430 the destination will be York. In the case of the 1429 the destination is Poppleton although the actual train destination is York. The final destination of the 1429 is not shown.

The other list after the barrier is lists of trains and destinations. On these the 1429 is shown as Poppleton via Harrogate.

In addition by each departure platform is a departure board showing the train time calling points and destination, again Poppleton.

But if you happen to scroll through the ticket prices on the Northern website looking for the cheapest Leeds-York ticket, it will show you the Poppleton train and the expected platform, often 3B.

 

[WesternLancer]

This has become a long thread and the OP has my sympathy for the poor way they have been treated, and I note there are many regular forum members encouraging the OP to Appeal

However, I note the OP says they have recently come to the UK and is thus naturally unfamiliar with the UK railway system and its rules -

I suspect the most practical advice now for the OP is to focus on the form of wording the OP should use in submitting their appeal in a way that maximises the chance of success.

Perhaps @zapper_09 can post a draft of any Appeal wording they wish to submit (and I think there may be a word limit perhaps?) people on the forum can help get the wording as good as it can be with any suggestions or edits.

The Appeal needs to be short, focussed and succinct in my view. Much of the info posted explaining about how the confusion has arisen (the way the the train concerned is only listed on screen to Poppleton, and why) will not need to be part of the Appeal wording I would think.

 

[Busaholic]

This is a perfect example of how a false destination ends up misleading an occasional user of the railway with horrific consequences.

Some parts of the industry are terribly disjointed and information provision, so crucial to anyone less than proficient with the operational and revenue side of the industry, often falls short largely due to inconsistencies.

How on earth would an ordinary passenger unfamiliar with the area know that a train not advertised to go to their destination on the ticket is actually going there, and not the one a minute later operated by the same company? It is madness. If we were to sell a ticket to York (especially one only valid on booked train) but advertise the train only to Poppleton then this must be made clear on the ticket to the customer ("train will be advertised as terminating in Poppleton"). This is not beyond the realms of possibility with the host of technology available nowadays, provided there is the will to improve information clarity and have customers' needs at heart.

The industry is very good at parroting messages like "see it, say it, sorted", but shockingly oblivious to the hardship (financial and psychological) of those on the receiving end of the industry's ignorance to what is actually important to the customer.

Yes, I think there are excellent grounds for appeal due both to the inconsistency of information provision and possibly the member of staff not adopting best practice and seek to confirm the customer's original travel plans by examining their ticket.

It's almost as if a train operator wanted passenger confusion in order to maximise their profits. If it was a car parking company there'd be press coverage about 'scams' but somehow the rail industry mainly escapes this scrutiny. If and when one national rail company is recreated under some form of public ownership it might change things, but that remains a pipedream.

 

[zapper_09]

Something additional I am curious to understand:
Could someone confirm if my penalty amount is correct?
On the train, I was told by person issuing the penalty that a ticket was 11 pounds (and like 60 cents) and then on my ticket, it displayed as $18.40.
I did not think much of it as I did not know on the train what made up the penalty and the stress of the situation. But, thinking back on it now.

This has become a long thread and the OP has my sympathy for the poor way they have been treated, and I note there are many regular forum members encouraging the OP to Appeal

However, I note the OP says they have recently come to the UK and is thus naturally unfamiliar with the UK railway system and its rules -

I suspect the most practical advice now for the OP is to focus on the form of wording the OP should use in submitting their appeal in a way that maximises the chance of success.

Perhaps @zapper_09 can post a draft of any Appeal wording they wish to submit (and I think there may be a word limit perhaps?) people on the forum can help get the wording as good as it can be with any suggestions or edits.

The Appeal needs to be short, focussed and succinct in my view. Much of the info posted explaining about how the confusion has arisen (the way the the train concerned is only listed on screen to Poppleton, and why) will not need to be part of the Appeal wording I would think.

Hey WesternLancer, I have already submitted an appeal and am waiting for the outcome. I attached evidence and the facts.
I did call the Leeds station and Northern Rail to see if I could get the platform person to verify what he told me (as evidence). But they can not help and many people who work there also have some GDPR policy.

 

[Western Sunset]

Sorry, but what's GCSC?

 

[skyhigh]

Sorry, but what's GCSC?

In what context? I can't see it mentioned anywhere on this thread?

 

[zapper_09]

Sorry, but what's

Gdpr. Some privacy law.
They just told me to appeal. So wont be able to get confirmation from the officer who told me to catch the tpe train.

 

[Western Sunset]

Gdpr. Some privacy law.
They just told me to appeal. So wont be able to get confirmation from the officer who told me to catch the tpe train.

Thanks.
Do continue to appeal, even if refused at first. Best wishes.

 

[zapper_09]

Thanks team for the help. Fingers crossed it works out.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks team for the help. Fingers crossed it works out.

as mentioned above - I would post a draft of your Appeal wording up here for people to help check your draft - if you think that be of help of course.

 

[zapper_09]

as mentioned above - I would post a draft of your Appeal wording up here for people to help check your draft - if you think that be of help of course.

Ill bear that in mind. if my first appeal in unsuccessful i will definitely do that. Thank you

 

[WesternLancer]

Ill bear that in mind. if my first appeal in unsuccessful i will definitely do that. Thank you

The thing is, as I understand it, is that it is important to make key points in the 1st appeal stage as you can't then raise them later if you forgot or did not know to mention them originally. I suspect people here can help you get that correct from the start. You don't want to find out after your 1st Appeal is unsuccessful that it is too late to get it right at stage 2.

Your key focus, I think, needs to be that you were advised by a member of staff after you sought specific advice, to use the train your travelled on and which resulted in receiving a Penalty Fare.

But experts on Penalty Fares may suggest other points to include in your 1st Appeal.

Or perhaps you have already sent in your 1st Appeal?* In which case I'm sure people will help you with the next stages if that is rejected.

In any case good luck with this.

*EDIT - I see up thread a few posts you confirm you have submitted your appeal

 

[Western Sunset]

If a TOC uses GDPR as an excuse to not allow customers to obtain evidence to defend themselves, how is that fair or equitable?

 

[WesternLancer]

If a TOC uses GDPR as an excuse to not allow customers to obtain evidence to defend themselves, how is that fair or equitable?

Just part of the excuse set the OP will have received when he rang the station / Northern Trains to see if they could give him details of the member of staff he spoke to - which they wouldn't do or in practical terms might not even be able to do if they wanted - and even if they did no doubt when staff member thinks they may get accused of giving wrong info to someone they will probably simply say they do not recall the incident in any case and it would be hard to prove exactly what was said in any case.

 

[30907]

This is a perfect example of how a false destination ends up misleading an occasional user of the railway with horrific consequences.

A passenger who specifically chose this train to get a longer ride for less money (the app tells them there is a quicker service).
Not a typical user of the Harrogate line, I suggest.

If we were to sell a ticket to York (especially one only valid on booked train) but advertise the train only to Poppleton then this must be made clear on the ticket to the customer ("train will be advertised as terminating in Poppleton").

Excellent suggestion. Do Northern specify both the display at Leeds and the info on the app/website?

 

[LJA]

An unfortunate series of events really, with ample opportunity for confusion at each stage. Would like to think an appeal could be successful but fear it will be computer says no at the 1st stage at least.

I can understand why the (very) slow train is shown as Poppleton. If it was York you would no doubt get plenty of people taking it by mistake, given departure times are only a minute apart. Can’t imagine there’s many people like the OP deliberately wanting the slow train.

 

[melevittfl]

It's almost as if a train operator wanted passenger confusion in order to maximise their profits. If it was a car parking company there'd be press coverage about 'scams' but somehow the rail industry mainly escapes this scrutiny. If and when one national rail company is recreated under some form of public ownership it might change things, but that remains a pipedream.

I think the fact that parking charges are civil and depend on contract law. The consequences of going to court over a parking charge is, at most, monetary.

However, the railways have managed to get laws passed that turn what, in any other industry, would be contract violations into criminal offences with the possibility of jail time and a criminal record.

For example, if you buy a plane ticket for A->C for a route where the plane goes A->B->C and then get off at B because that’s where you really wanted to go, but the A->B ticket was more expensive, the airline won’t like it but they can’t prosecute you for it.

Whereas the railway is given the power to prosecute you for a crime doing the exact same thing.

 

[island]

However, the railways have managed to get laws passed that turn what, in any other industry, would be contract violations into criminal offences with the possibility of jail time and a criminal record.

There is no realistic possibility of jail time for a train ticket violation.