Missed Lumo due to other operator delay - what's supposed to happen?

[BRX]

Today I was booked to travel Inverness to Edinburgh with Scotrail, then Lumo Edinburgh to London.

I actually had about 3 hours leeway in Edinburgh to change trains, but a cavalcade of Scotrail cancellations, diversions and delays meant I still missed it.

I already knew I was going to miss it when I was in Aberdeen so asked the scotrail ticket office there what my options were. They did me a reservation for a later edinburgh-london LNER, and stamped my scotrail tickets, but they didn't really seem to know what my Lumo ticket even was when I showed it to them. So I was expecting that I might have some issues when i got on the LNER train.

The first ticket check just accepted it, didnt even ask to see my Edinburgh-london ticket so Lumo didn't come into the conversation.

The second check it did though, and I was told that what I had wasn't correct. I was ready for an argument that it was Scotrail's error not mine - but to their credit they accepted this without any dispute. I was given a bit of a talk about Lumo being nothing to do with them and that Lumo would just leave delayed passengers in the lurch and so on. But I wasn't clear exactly what was supposed to have happened. There was no benefit in me pursuing that question though.

So... What should have happened? Should scotrail have made me travel on the next Lumo service? Or is Lumo somehow excluded from requirements to help out with delays originating from other operators? Or could Scotrail have just told me, tough luck and sort yourself out?

 

[Hadders]

If you had a Lumo only ticket then you're entitled to take the next Lumo service. COndition 28.2 of the National Rail COnditions of Travel states

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

In your case I would say that LNER was in a position to assist.

 

[westcoaster]

Was it 1 ticket for the full journey. Or was it multiple tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was it 1 ticket for the full journey. Or was it multiple tickets.

Doesn't make any difference.

 

[BRX]

Multiple tickets, Lumo only ticket for that leg. It was the last Lumo service for the day.

 

[30907]

Multiple tickets, Lumo only ticket for that leg. It was the last Lumo service for the day.

As there wasn't a later Lumo, Scotrail couldn't have suggested you needed to wait for it (which you seemed to be suggesting in your opening post).
LNER did the right thing in conveying you.

 

[Class800]

LNER did the right thing in conveying you.

But not in the way the second ticket inspector spoke to the OP.

As there was no further Lumo train that day, undeniably LNER had a duty to assist - although sometimes TOCs do not fulfil their duty.

A problem with limited frequency operators such as Lumo, Hull Trains and Grand Central is that if there is a later train that day, albeit a few hours later, a passenger may be asked to wait for the next train of the correct operator, which is the basic entitlement

 

[LowLevel]

While LNER are usually pretty bullish about not providing ticket acceptance to open access operators unless there's a general network problem like the wires being down or a fatality, I have found them to be fairly accommodating if the delay is with a 3rd party train operator - my own TOC connects with Hull Trains and does TOC+Hull Trains tickets and a phone call to LNER control explaining that my TOC has been delayed for whatever reason has in the past generally yielded ticket acceptance for those individuals, in some cases on specific trains in specific carriages.

With this being the case if ScotRail control had contacted LNER control specifically regarding this individual passenger I would think formal arrangements would have been made.

 

[BRX]

As there wasn't a later Lumo, Scotrail couldn't have suggested you needed to wait for it (which you seemed to be suggesting in your opening post).
LNER did the right thing in conveying you.

Although it seems they were wrong to imply there was something problematic about me holding a Lumo ticket. Also, to imply that if I buy such a ticket in the future, I should remember it will somehow leave me potentially without assistance in the event of trouble.

I find it interesting that some level of resentment about competing operators often filters down to train staff. The message I was getting, was a bit along the lines of grumbling that Lumo never help out with other operator's passengers. But that's not really my concern as a passenger.

 

[Class800]

If for example the 11.14 Lumo from Edinburgh is missed, the next one is 16.12. They are not frequent. Other operators may be less inclined to help when there is another Lumo albeit quite a long wait. For that reason, LNER or any operator tickets are probably best

 

[Haywain]

I find it interesting that some level of resentment about competing operators often filters down to train staff. The message I was getting, was a bit along the lines of grumbling that Lumo never help out with other operator's passengers

You’ve hit the reason for it squarely on the head. However, it doesn’t filter down but rather stays where it starts. In other parts of the business the view tends to be more pragmatic.

 

[185143]

Although it seems they were wrong to imply there was something problematic about me holding a Lumo ticket. Also, to imply that if I buy such a ticket in the future, I should remember it will somehow leave me potentially without assistance in the event of trouble.

I find it interesting that some level of resentment about competing operators often filters down to train staff. The message I was getting, was a bit along the lines of grumbling that Lumo never help out with other operator's passengers. But that's not really my concern as a passenger.

On two of my 4 Lumo journeys they've been accepting other TOCs tickets, namely LNER. TPE strike days they are taking TPE tickets between Newcastle and Edinburgh. They've even had stop orders at York during WCML flooding.

 

[BRX]

If for example the 11.14 Lumo from Edinburgh is missed, the next one is 16.12. They are not frequent. Other operators may be less inclined to help when there is another Lumo albeit quite a long wait. For that reason, LNER or any operator tickets are probably best

How does it work between the companies though - if Scotrail causes me to miss my Lumo, is it then up to Scotrail to buy me a new ticket with another operator? If I am told I have to wait for the next Lumo, is that because Lumo are obliged to carry me without any payment from me or from Scotrail?

 

[Kilopylae]

How does it work between the companies though - if Scotrail causes me to miss my Lumo, is it then up to Scotrail to buy me a new ticket with another operator? If I am told I have to wait for the next Lumo, is that because Lumo are obliged to carry me without any payment from me or from Scotrail?

AFAIK the second sentence is true.

I don't know if TOCs who convey passengers under Condition 28.2 get any money back, but in the case here where it was one passenger rather than a formal arrangement set up after widespread disruption, I doubt it.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know if TOCs who convey passengers under Condition 28.2 get any money back, but in the case here where it was one passenger rather than a formal arrangement set up after widespread disruption, I doubt it.

No money changes hands when the cause is disruption affecting all TOCs. There may be cases where a company cancels a train and wants its own passengers carried over the same route by a competitor that money does change hands.

 

[BRX]

The LNER inspector seemed to be saying that I ought to actually have a new ticket (presumably bought by Scotrail?) rather than what I had, which was the Lumo ticket plus a reservation & itenerary printed out at aberdeen ticket office. But in fact it kind of sounds like they had to take me, because there was no later lumo service to wait for. In any case she took photos of the tickets for 'feedback'. Doesn't affect me know but I'm curious what happens behind the scenes.

 

[yorkie]

The LNER inspector seemed to be saying that I ought to actually have a new ticket (presumably bought by Scotrail?) rather than what I had, ...

LNER has some unknowledgeable inspectors, including the one who spoke to you.

The problem is endemic in the rail industry.

If you encounter difficulty on a journey, check with the experts on this forum in case of encountering an unknowledgeable member of staff who may try to deny your rights.

In this case I'm glad the person concerned allowed you to travel but it's disappointing to hear they stated some incorrect statements; some people just can't help themselves.

 

[BRX]

I guess Lumo is still quite new so some staff will not yet have encountered many situations where it's part of the picture.

I was a bit surprised the ticket office at Aberdeen seemed to have never even heard of it though. The chap I spoke to just looked a bit baffled when I showed him the ticket on my phone.

 

[Class800]

Aberdeen office always seemed baffled when I lived there

 

[30907]

But not in the way the second ticket inspector spoke to the OP

Apologies, I hadn't understood that these were LNER staff - re-reading the OP I now see his meaning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm kind-of surprised that the booking office didn't stick their stamp on something as well as issuing the itinerary and reservation. That would constitute unassailable written permission to travel on LNER, issued by an authorised person (an LNER booking office clerk). Edit: ah, it was Aberdeen, so a ScotRail booking clerk - but even so...

Then again, some guards would still get awkward to people if the CEO was stood there giving their personal authority to travel. Those guards need weeding out and to go and drive freight instead or something, because they do the railway serious reputational harm.

 

[Watershed]

Today I was booked to travel Inverness to Edinburgh with Scotrail, then Lumo Edinburgh to London.

I actually had about 3 hours leeway in Edinburgh to change trains, but a cavalcade of Scotrail cancellations, diversions and delays meant I still missed it.

I already knew I was going to miss it when I was in Aberdeen so asked the scotrail ticket office there what my options were. They did me a reservation for a later edinburgh-london LNER, and stamped my scotrail tickets, but they didn't really seem to know what my Lumo ticket even was when I showed it to them. So I was expecting that I might have some issues when i got on the LNER train.

The first ticket check just accepted it, didnt even ask to see my Edinburgh-london ticket so Lumo didn't come into the conversation.

The second check it did though, and I was told that what I had wasn't correct. I was ready for an argument that it was Scotrail's error not mine - but to their credit they accepted this without any dispute. I was given a bit of a talk about Lumo being nothing to do with them and that Lumo would just leave delayed passengers in the lurch and so on. But I wasn't clear exactly what was supposed to have happened. There was no benefit in me pursuing that question though.

So... What should have happened? Should scotrail have made me travel on the next Lumo service? Or is Lumo somehow excluded from requirements to help out with delays originating from other operators? Or could Scotrail have just told me, tough luck and sort yourself out?

Oh dear.

Firstly, the default entitlement in the case of missing a connection is to take the next service that complies with your tickets' route or TOC restrictions. There is no requirement to do anything to be permitted to do this.

Obviously in your case, there was no further Lumo service that day so this was not an option. That being the case, NRCoT 28.2 came into play, meaning any and every operator in a position to assist you was obliged to do so. It's good that ScotRail stepped up to the plate here by issuing you with a new reservation and officially endorsing your ticket, but LNER would have been obliged to do exactly the same (well, except the reservation) if ScotRail hadn't done so.

It was bang out of order for the second LNER member of staff to suggest that:
a) Permission given by other staff or TOCs isn't binding on LNER. Apparent authority clearly exists so this argument is nonsense.
b) There was something else you should have done. What were they expecting you to do? Be stranded?
c) The fact that Lumo is a different company makes any difference to your situation. It doesn't. NRCoT 28.2 requires every operator that can help to do so, not just the operator that caused your journey to be disrupted, or the operator whose train you missed.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that if your journey is disrupted (e.g. you miss a connection or a train is cancelled), you gain additional rights if complying with the usual rules and restrictions as stated above would cause you to be delayed by more than 1 hour. This is under Article 16 of the PRO, and means you can opt to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity.

In practical terms, that means that if your Lumo service is cancelled/delayed/you miss a valid connection onto it, it will almost always be the case that Lumo are required to reroute you on LNER (or another operator) if that is the quickest option. Exactly how they do that is up to them - it may involve ticket acceptance, or buying you a brand new ticket. But they must do so, and if they refuse to do so and you incur additional costs as a result (e.g. having to buy a new ticket), you would be able to claim this back from them.

 

[gray1404]

Don't forget to claim any compensation you may be entitled to for the delay from ScotRail.

You are also entitled to make a complaint to LNER for the poor service you received at the point of ticket inspection. I would be doing this particularly as the inspector took photos of my tickets.

 

[LowLevel]

Don't forget to claim any compensation you may be entitled to for the delay from lumo.

You are also entitled to make a complaint to LNER for the poor service you received at the point of ticket inspection. I would be doing this particularly as the inspector took photos of my tickets.

The inspector is perfectly entitled to take photos of the tickets, and indeed to take them away from you provided they give a suitable receipt/replacement.

The reason given, to follow up on the actions taken which may result in themselves or the booking office staff being rebriefed accordingly, is entirely reasonable and what should happen in a case where the inspector may or may not be correct and is rightly giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.

It's much easier to take a quick photo than attempt to accurately reproduce the various documents for reference.

 

[BRX]

I'm kind-of surprised that the booking office didn't stick their stamp on something as well as issuing the itinerary and reservation. That would constitute unassailable written permission to travel on LNER, issued by an authorised person (an LNER booking office clerk). Edit: ah, it was Aberdeen, so a ScotRail booking clerk - but even so...

They did actually stamp and initial one of my scotrail tickets.

I personally wasn't too worried about what was going to happen - I was happy that what I had in my hands showed that I'd gone through the process of asking railway staff what to do, and was following what I'd been advised. Worst case scenario, LNER make me buy a new ticket and then I have to faff around reclaiming it later. But I'm sure that there are other travelers who might have found it a little stressful.

It's not helped by the repeated announcements before leaving Edinburgh that you are absolutely going to be in trouble if the ticket you are holding is a Lumo only one. I wonder if those messages should have something additional to say that it's ok if it's as result of disruption and that you've had it endorsed by railway staff.

 

[yorkie]

. I wonder if those messages should have something additional to say that it's ok if it's as result of disruption and that you've had it endorsed by railway staff.

They should, but that wouldn't be consistent with LNER's authoritarian stance.

 

[Wallsendmag]

They should, but that wouldn't be consistent with LNER's authoritarian stance.

Aren't we under orders to make announcements shorter?

 

[yorkie]

Aren't we under orders to make announcements shorter?

I don't think there needs to be an announcement about Lumo tickets, but if one is made it should be worded appropriately.

 

[BRX]

Don't forget to claim any compensation you may be entitled to for the delay from ScotRail.

Doing this today. Notably the online form you need to submit to Scotrail doesn't allow you to enter accurate information for a journey that involved several tickets. The whole thing is set up assuming you are claiming for a journey that was carried out using only one ticket. I've submitted "something" and will be interested to see what happens.

 

[BRX]

Doing this today. Notably the online form you need to submit to Scotrail doesn't allow you to enter accurate information for a journey that involved several tickets. The whole thing is set up assuming you are claiming for a journey that was carried out using only one ticket. I've submitted "something" and will be interested to see what happens.

Well, what happened was that they tried to refund me only for the first leg of my three leg journey. As I suspected might happen. So I've appealed it.