Missed train due to platform alteration 20 seconds before departure

[ivorytoast28]

Tonight at Redhill station the 19:18 service to Luton was scheduled to depart from platform 2.
However, a freight train pulled into platform 2 as we were waiting and so it was moved to platform 0 about 10 minutes before departure. At 19:17:40 they announced it would now be departing from platform 2 again. I wasn't overly bothered about which service i was getting so I'd only just left platform 2 and jumped back up the stairs

As I reached the top the train was arriving and so i gestured to the railway staff member (Dispatcher?) on the platform, "make sure you hold it for them" pointing at those on platform 0. He said "sorry about that will do". Assuming he would I walked up the train a few carriages and before the clock even hit 19:18 the doors slammed shut and it left. Now as i say i wasn't personally bothered about missing it and that was my fault for walking up the platform. But noone else who was waiting on platform 0 managed to board on time including lots of elderly people. Luckily the next Thameslink core service is in a few minutes but this feels entirely wrong that passengers are forced to miss trains and the platform staff did nothing to stop it leaving on time as people were boarding.

If you followed exactly what the railway told you to do, you miss that train

 

[Deepgreen]

Tonight at Redhill station the 19:18 service to Luton was scheduled to depart from platform 2.
However, a freight train pulled into platform 2 as we were waiting and so it was moved to platform 0 about 10 minutes before departure. At 19:17:40 they announced it would now be departing from platform 2 again. I wasn't overly bothered about which service i was getting so I'd only just left platform 2 and jumped back up the stairs

As I reached the top the train was arriving and so i gestured to the guy on the platform, make sure you hold it for them pointing at those on platform 0. He saod "sorry about that will do". Assuming he would I walked up the train a few carriages and before the clock even hit 19:18 the doors slammed shut and it left. Now as i say i wasn't personally bothered about missing it and that was my fault for walking up the platform. But noone else who was waiting on platform 0 managed to board on time including lots of elderly people. Luckily the next Thameslink core service is in a few minutes but this feels entirely wrong that passengers are forced to miss trains and the platform staff did nothing to stop it leaving on time as people were boarding

That's Redhill for you! I spent many years commuting through there and the station/train management and information dissemination was appalling. The answer to complaints about failing to hold a train for a few seconds for cross-platform interchanges was always "every second counts", but minutes were wasted elsewhere! It's the disparate and disconnected railway network of today in microcosm. The "freight train" in this case looks like the RHTT from Tonbridge which ran a few minutes late, but all trains seem to have used their booked platforms according to RTT. A regular problem at Redhill for decades has been mis-information about platform alterations - in this case an alteration announced prematurely which turned out to be not the case.

 

[Kite159]

That's the railway for you, probably the member of staff was more interested in avoiding getting a "please explain" letter for a late departure than putting the needs of passengers first.

 

[uglymonkey]

Happens regularly at Exeter St David's too. London Paddington train arrives. Connecting passengers rush and are half way across footbridge to watch the Exmouth train departing .Every single time I've caught this combo. Both trains are run by the same company GWR, and customers are left on a cold platform to wait for the next one. Its deliberate. The railways are run for the benefit of the railways, not the poor bl..dy customers.

 

[trainJam]

Assuming he would I walked up the train a few carriages and before the clock even hit 19:18 the doors slammed shut and it left. Now as i say i wasn't personally bothered about missing it and that was my fault for walking up the platform.

Dare I say this,

but presumably you were walking far away enough from the train for it to be safely dispatched.

I'm not staff, but the train should only be dispatched if it is safe...

That being said it is not recommended to deliberately ignore staff on this matter (it is against bylaw 12) if they say stand clear.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Dare I say this,

but presumably you were walking far away enough from the train for it to be safely dispatched.

I'm not staff, but the train should only be dispatched if it is safe...

That being said it is not recommended to deliberately ignore staff on this matter (it is against bylaw 12) if they say stand clear.

Honestly not really no, I was right next to it. I heard the doors beeping to close and thought "surely not" and for a split second thought about getting in the way to stop them. Of course I did not do that, but I was definitely not behind the yellow line as the train started moving. I'm pretty sure there were no announcements, just the beep as the door closed and the train start to move so i moved away from it

While it's frustrating when this happens with late running connections, I feel this is worse as there was no late connection, every one of those passengers was ready on the platform waiting on time for their train and the railway made them miss it by moving them to another platform just to change their mind as the train was pulling in

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't Thameslink always self-dispatched using the cameras now? If I'm correct on that, the driver might just have closed up and gone without knowing what was going on.

Also the Thameslink core is pretty intensively worked, so it may actually be better for everyone overall not to wait and cause delays there? Tube drivers routinely close doors in peoples' faces, things like the 2 minute or lower headways on the Victoria Line would never work otherwise.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Aren't Thameslink always self-dispatched using the cameras now? If I'm correct on that, the driver might just have closed up and gone without knowing what was going on.

Also the Thameslink core is pretty intensively worked, so it may actually be better for everyone overall not to wait and cause delays there? Tube drivers routinely close doors in peoples' faces, things like the 2 minute or lower headways on the Victoria Line would never work otherwise.

Presumably this is what happened . Certainly not the driver's fault if so, just a weird decision to change the platform and then change it back again. Who controls that change? There was no reason it couldn't have gone into 0 even if it was no longer necessary with the freight train gone.

Also surely the platform guy should have some ability to stop it being dispatched if there is an issue? Otherwise what is the point of them? There were 3 of them in total. One had the baton

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also surely the platform guy should have some ability to stop it being dispatched if there is an issue? Otherwise what is the point of them? There were 3 of them in total. One had the baton

Redhill has Southern and GWR services as well.

 

[uglymonkey]

Thameslink drivers shut doors in peoples faces too.

 

[infobleep]

Presumably this is what happened . Certainly not the driver's fault if so, just a weird decision to change the platform and then change it back again. Who controls that change? There was no reason it couldn't have gone into 0 even if it was no longer necessary with the freight train gone.

Also surely the platform guy should have some ability to stop it being dispatched if there is an issue? Otherwise what is the point of them? There were 3 of them in total. One had the baton

I assume the signaller changed the platforms but someone else might know better.

 

[Markdvdman]

I have been a victim of this at Cardiff Central. On the 6:08am Merthyr to Barry Island Train, they were in Cardiff on time. announced a few mins later this train is cancelled please go to platform 7 and a train will be waiting. Announced then it will be leaving platform 4! We rushed like lunatics and they did not care one iota and left us stranded. I was livid and the other guy ended up 30 mins late for work as they could not liaise to hold trains - passengers really appear to be secondary at times! That was last year by the way.

 

[Kite159]

I've had it at East Croydon on an early morning Thameslink train. Booked to use platform 1 (or 2) but at the last minute [the train was pulling into the station as the announcement got played] got changed to platform 4. Hardly anybody made it who wasn't standing near the foot bridge and was able to dash across.

 

[InkyScrolls]

In contrast the staff at Lancaster are very good at arranging for the Northern services to be held for delayed Avanti and TPE trains (of which there are many!). Quite often I've had a dispatcher come up to me on the final Skipton service (d. 2131) and ask if we can wait ten minutes or more. Our (Northern) control have always been happy to oblige and will generally hold the final Skipton to Leeds service too if there are any passengers wanting stations east of Skipton, which is timed to leave Skipton at 2249, five minutes after the 2131 from Lancaster arrives.

 

[infobleep]

I've had it at East Croydon on an early morning Thameslink train. Booked to use platform 1 (or 2) but at the last minute [the train was pulling into the station as the announcement got played] got changed to platform 4. Hardly anybody made it who wasn't standing near the foot bridge and was able to dash across.

And they talk about it being dangerous for passengers to run and not wanting them to.......

 

[Horizon22]

Aren't Thameslink always self-dispatched using the cameras now? If I'm correct on that, the driver might just have closed up and gone without knowing what was going on.

Also the Thameslink core is pretty intensively worked, so it may actually be better for everyone overall not to wait and cause delays there? Tube drivers routinely close doors in peoples' faces, things like the 2 minute or lower headways on the Victoria Line would never work otherwise.

Yeah it would have been self-dispatch. So unfortunately the dispatcher had no chance. I'm sure someone might have permitted a hold for a couple of minutes, but its likely nobody with that responsibility even knew until it was too late.

Additionally, if the signaller changes a platform last minute, nobody with control of the CIS or PA ability will be able to make announcements or amend the platforms in suitable time and it would have been auto-routed via a platform change once the Luton train hit the berth for Platform 0. It's a really really tricky situation to resolve across the railway network, without putting more work on an already busy signaller to always advise a station / control about a platform change minutes in advance and also have the awareness to not route the train ahead for passenger connections.

Also surely the platform guy should have some ability to stop it being dispatched if there is an issue? Otherwise what is the point of them? There were 3 of them in total. One had the baton

Depends on the dispatch method; there's about 10 different types of method around the network and many can be employed on just one station or even the same platform depending on crew and company requirements. Just because they had a baton, they might have not needed it for this train.

They could do an emergency stop, but that wouldn't be suitable for a scenario like this.

 

[sprunt]

Also the Thameslink core is pretty intensively worked, so it may actually be better for everyone overall not to wait and cause delays there? Tube drivers routinely close doors in peoples' faces, things like the 2 minute or lower headways on the Victoria Line would never work otherwise.

That's not quite the same though it is? For one thing, the Victoria line train won't have had a last minute platform change and in any event there will be another train along to wherever you want to go in at most five minutes. If you're on an outer Thameslink station it could be significantly longer before the next train to where you want to go turns up.

Would you be able to claim delay repay if this delayed you by long enough?

 

[Royal351]

Yeah it would have been self-dispatch. So unfortunately the dispatcher had no chance. I'm sure someone might have permitted a hold for a couple of minutes, but its likely nobody with that responsibility even knew until it was too late.

Additionally, if the signaller changes a platform last minute, nobody with control of the CIS or PA ability will be able to make announcements or amend the platforms in suitable time and it would have been auto-routed via a platform change once the Luton train hit the berth for Platform 0. It's a really really tricky situation to resolve across the railway network, without putting more work on an already busy signaller to always advise a station / control about a platform change minutes in advance and also have the awareness to not route the train ahead for passenger connections.



Depends on the dispatch method; there's about 10 different types of method around the network and many can be employed on just one station or even the same platform depending on crew and company requirements. Just because they had a baton, they might have not needed it for this train.

They could do an emergency stop, but that wouldn't be suitable for a scenario like this.

Having been platform staff at Redhill.

I can tell you that the only way to prevent a Thameslink from buggering off. Is to stand in the doorway and do the emergency stop gesture to the cameras and hope the driver doesn't try and close the doors on your leg (speaking from personal experience here)

Last minute platform changes are though at Redhill cause they're almost always from plat 2 to 0 or vice versa

Secondly, when I was there (abit about 8 months ago) we weren't allowed to use the PA on platform 0 due to noise complaints and something like that

 

[Deepgreen]

Having been platform staff at Redhill.

I can tell you that the only way to prevent a Thameslink from buggering off. Is to stand in the doorway and do the emergency stop gesture to the cameras and hope the driver doesn't try and close the doors on your leg (speaking from personal experience here)

Last minute platform changes are though at Redhill cause they're almost always from plat 2 to 0 or vice versa

Secondly, when I was there (abit about 8 months ago) we weren't allowed to use the PA on platform 0 due to noise complaints and something like that

Bizarre - it's the platform closest to the town, rather than residents, except for the far northern end, and if anyone is standing there they will have no chance of changing platforms quickly anyway, even with PA. Surely it can't be hard to isolate the speakers at the northern end (not aimed at you, BTW)? If the use of PA on p0 is forbidden, then a bad design just got even worse!

And they talk about it being dangerous for passengers to run and not wanting them to.......

Especially as the awful footbridge at EC is so prone to wetting!

Yeah it would have been self-dispatch. So unfortunately the dispatcher had no chance. I'm sure someone might have permitted a hold for a couple of minutes, but its likely nobody with that responsibility even knew until it was too late.

Additionally, if the signaller changes a platform last minute, nobody with control of the CIS or PA ability will be able to make announcements or amend the platforms in suitable time and it would have been auto-routed via a platform change once the Luton train hit the berth for Platform 0. It's a really really tricky situation to resolve across the railway network, without putting more work on an already busy signaller to always advise a station / control about a platform change minutes in advance and also have the awareness to not route the train ahead for passenger connections.



Depends on the dispatch method; there's about 10 different types of method around the network and many can be employed on just one station or even the same platform depending on crew and company requirements. Just because they had a baton, they might have not needed it for this train.

They could do an emergency stop, but that wouldn't be suitable for a scenario like this.

Last time I was at Redhill (a couple of months ago now) the platform staff were scuttling/strolling up and down the platforms to dispatch trains (inc. TL) - has it changed very recently?

 

[GN Boy]

A common occurrence also at Finsbury Park, with TL trains that usually use platforms 2 and 7, suddenly get routed at the last second into platforms 4 and 5!

 

[Royal351]

Bizarre - it's the platform closest to the town, rather than residents, except for the far northern end, and if anyone is standing there they will have no chance of changing platforms quickly anyway, even with PA. Surely it can't be hard to isolate the speakers at the northern end (not aimed at you, BTW)? If the use of PA on p0 is forbidden, then a bad design just got even worse!


Especially as the awful footbridge at EC is so prone to wetting!


Last time I was at Redhill (a couple of months ago now) the platform staff were scuttling/strolling up and down the platforms to dispatch trains (inc. TL) - has it changed very recently?

Thameslink have been self dispatch at Redhill since May 2022. Still requires a member of staff to be on the platform but thats literally just another set of eyes

 

[DelW]

As soon as I read the thread title, I immediately thought of Redhill. Last minute platform changes leaving passengers stranded are endemic there.

The problem didn't exist before platform 0 was built around 8 years ago. Up trains left from either p1 or p2, which were (and are) opposite faces of the same island.

The problem was caused entirely by the decision to turn p1 into a bay and make the new p0 into the second up platform. With the subway right at the southern end of the platforms, and awkward and convoluted staircases, the slowness of the transfer was bound to cause problems.

I have seen an explanation of why it was done this way rather than making p0 the bay, but I forget now what the reason was. Whatever the reason, it's made Redhill much more awkward for passengers, along with the other annoying local habits like putting reversing trains right up at the London end of the platforms.

 

[faltskog36abba]

We had the same thing happen to us last week at Manchester Victoria. Our train to Liverpool was due on platform 3, But as ours was late it was occupied by a Leeds train, Our TPE came in on platform 5 whilst an announcement was made. we had 3 minutes to run to the lift with a wheelchair and just made it-The disable assistance guy was there waiting by the doors also, But we were lucky, Would the train wait for you if it were the last one?.

 

[Deepgreen]

As soon as I read the thread title, I immediately thought of Redhill. Last minute platform changes leaving passengers stranded are endemic there.

The problem didn't exist before platform 0 was built around 8 years ago. Up trains left from either p1 or p2, which were (and are) opposite faces of the same island.

The problem was caused entirely by the decision to turn p1 into a bay and make the new p0 into the second up platform. With the subway right at the southern end of the platforms, and awkward and convoluted staircases, the slowness of the transfer was bound to cause problems.

I have seen an explanation of why it was done this way rather than making p0 the bay, but I forget now what the reason was. Whatever the reason, it's made Redhill much more awkward for passengers, along with the other annoying local habits like putting reversing trains right up at the London end of the platforms.

Absolutely correct on all points! The reason p1 couldn't be left as a through, reversible 12 car road with p0 being built was to do with signal overlaps and the need to rebuild the south end junction to accommodate that. Allegedly.

We had the same thing happen to us last week at Manchester Victoria. Our train to Liverpool was due on platform 3, But as ours was late it was occupied by a Leeds train, Our TPE came in on platform 5 whilst an announcement was made. we had 3 minutes to run to the lift with a wheelchair and just made it-The disable assistance guy was there waiting by the doors also, But we were lucky, Would the train wait for you if it were the last one?.

Of course, none of this matters, because today's railway is based on the trains running on time, rather than passengers...

 

[Horizon22]

Of course, none of this matters, because today's railway is based on the trains running on time, rather than passengers...

Trains running on time of course helps passengers already on the train and those boarding further down the line though. Just not those boarding at Redhill.

 

[michael74]

Happens regularly at Exeter St David's too. London Paddington train arrives. Connecting passengers rush and are half way across footbridge to watch the Exmouth train departing .Every single time I've caught this combo. Both trains are run by the same company GWR, and customers are left on a cold platform to wait for the next one. Its deliberate. The railways are run for the benefit of the railways, not the poor bl..dy customers.

It's not deliberate just because it's the same company the dispatcher does not have the authority to hold an Exmouth departure due to a late running Paddington as this will delay the next Exmouth-Paignton (which could easily delay another Paddington - Penzance and a XC service on the sea wall because it's late into the Warren) and, possibly also an Exeter Central - Barnstaple/Okehampton or a Waterloo-Exeter.... But they are often held in the evening when there is less chance of knock on.

 

[Deepgreen]

Trains running on time of course helps passengers already on the train and those boarding further down the line though. Just not those boarding at Redhill.

This doesn't only apply at Redhill, though - far from it, in fact. Trains being sent off on time to the second (in theory) when another 15-20 seconds would allow previously mis-directed passengers to board, rather than miss it, is short-sighted when 20 seconds will make no difference further on with pathing and other allowances. It's the difference between a unified network concept and a disparate one.

 

[jfollows]

Manchester Oxford Road did it for years. It was my local station 1996-2008 but i've used it since 1973.
Up train arrival shown for platform 4, then at the last second, as the train is arriving, switches to platform 3. By the time you are rushing over the footbridge to attempt to catch the train you are blocked by the hordes of people leaving the train. Last time I only just made the train in the end.
The solution is to move to platform 3 in advance and watch the train arriving, but why should you? You can then see which platform it's routed into.

 

[uglymonkey]

My point re Exeter St David's, is that the Exmouth train is deliberately timed to depart 30 seconds after a Paddington train, running on time pulls in. No delays no imaginary delayed passengers down the Exmouth line. Totally deliberate by the same company. It just makes the railway look bad and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Sod the customers, the railway is run for our benefit and not yours. Making you feel less inclined to use trains again in the future.

 

[michael74]

My point re Exeter St David's, is that the Exmouth train is deliberately timed to depart 30 seconds after a Paddington train, running on time pulls in. No delays no imaginary delayed passengers down the Exmouth line. Totally deliberate by the same company. It just makes the railway look bad and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Sod the customers, the railway is run for our benefit and not yours. Making you feel less inclined to use trains again in the future.

With respect you are very wrong, the Padd arrivals are not deliberately timed to miss the Exmouth departure, they are just not, just as they are not deliberately timed to be a convenient connection for the Okehampton or Barnstaple departures. At a station such as Exeter you are dealing with arrivals from Scotland, the Midlands, Wales, x2 London terminals, Cornwall and 4 branchlines as well as freight and depot movements, do you honestly think the planners have some of machiavellian plan to irritate the good people of Exmouth by ensuring they always miss their connection from Padd? As I said before, the Exmouth and the other branch services are regularly held in the evenings when the network is quieter.