Missing a last train connection due to cancellation of the first train

The DJ

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The last available timetabled train at Leeds to London King's Cross is the 21:42 involving a change of train at York arriving 22:13 with the LNER train departing 22:25.
What would happen if that 21:42 train to York was cancelled and there was no way for the passenger to get to York for the 22:25?
I would like to know the official policy in such an instance as that 22:25 is apparently the last train to London from York.
There is a 21:48 from Leeds but that involves a journey of 8½ hours with a wait of 2hrs 24m at Derby in the middle of the night which I personally do not consider a reasonable journey.
 
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JonathanH

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What would happen if that 21:42 train to York was cancelled and there was no way for the passenger to get to York for the 22:25?
To some extent it also depends on when you get to Leeds. If you were there for the 21:31, you might just unilaterally decide to travel earlier to York.
 

The DJ

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A passenger might be physically there for the 21:30 but either not aware of the earlier service or unsure of whether their LNER Advance would be valid on the earlier service. The 21:30 would be gone while they were asking the gate attendants

A taxi or (rarely) hotel would be provided. Had this a few times.
A taxi would surely take some time to be available for the passenger to board following the realisation that their 21:42 had been cancelled and so would be unlikely to get to York in time. Sceptical about a long distance train being held for just 3-4 passengers at most with staff at York not knowing when those passengers would be arriving
 
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ainsworth74

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As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

If a passenger arrives at Leeds to discover that the 2142 has been cancelled then the most obvious course would be to catch the proceeding train however if they are not aware of the disruption until it is too late to catch that train or are unable to verify that they would be allowed to use that service quickly enough then they should make themselves known to staff at Leeds and arrangements will be made to either put them in a taxi or, rarely, arrange a hotel with ticket endorsed for travel the following day.
 

221129

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A taxi would surely take some time to be available for the passenger to board following the realisation that their 21:42 had been cancelled and so would be unlikely to get to York in time. Sceptical about a long distance train being held for just 3-4 passengers at most with staff at York not knowing when those passengers would be arriving
The taxi would likely go straight to London or somewhere else en route to connect to the train. The staff at York would know what the next train from Leeds would be so would know the passengers ETA.
 

Bletchleyite

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A taxi would surely take some time to be available for the passenger to board following the realisation that their 21:42 had been cancelled and so would be unlikely to get to York in time. Sceptical about a long distance train being held for just 3-4 passengers at most with staff at York not knowing when those passengers would be arriving

Generally the approach (even though it's a bit inefficient) is that you continue by rail until you get stuck, and at that point a taxi is provided. So it'd be provided from York to London.
 

ainsworth74

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In this case you would almost certainly taxi direct from Leeds if there was no chance of a connection being made at York.
Agreed. If it was a taxi they'd just chuck you in it from Leeds to London. I've seen plenty of examples where taxis have been arranged for origins to far flung destinations even where it might have been possible to make some progress by rail. Indeed I've been in that situation (though for a shorter journey)! Taxi from Darlington to Saltburn even though there would have been another train as far as Middlesbrough available not long after finally arriving at Darlington.
 

221129

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I've seen plenty of examples where taxis have been arranged for origins to far flung destinations even where it might have been possible to make some progress by rail.
I do it all the time. Oban, Crianlarich, Fort William and North of Aberdeen are my favourites.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. If it was a taxi they'd just chuck you in it from Leeds to London. I've seen plenty of examples where taxis have been arranged for origins to far flung destinations even where it might have been possible to make some progress by rail. Indeed I've been in that situation (though for a shorter journey)! Taxi from Darlington to Saltburn even though there would have been another train as far as Middlesbrough available not long after finally arriving at Darlington.

I've had Preston to Edinburgh as there wasn't enough rail replacement bus capacity for everyone. Not on my own, though, there were 5 of us.

All the others have been local stuff. BR used to give them for Preston-Ormskirk if a missed connection or cancellation meant over an hour's delay - Northern are nowhere near as generous!
 

johntea

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I once got stuck on the last York - Kings Cross train, which eventually had to terminate at Peterborough and we were provided taxis from there

However the taxi driver was more than happy to take me to my actual destination of a hotel in Cambridge so it worked to my advantage in the end as otherwise I had a several hour wait at Kings Cross!
 

JonathanH

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If the 21:42 is cancelled, you would imagine that a taxi from Leeds to Doncaster would make the train for its 22:50 departure there.

Is it really a good idea to go to York on the next service? Wouldn't most people just want to do whatever would get them quickest to their ultimate destination.

I concede that not everyone is familiar with the rail network or the calling points on their subsequent train.

I think the much more difficult issue is if the 21:42 is running late but not cancelled. Then things are more ambiguous about whether you should seek help at Leeds or not.
 

221129

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I think the much more difficult issue is if the 21:42 is running late but not cancelled. Then things are more ambiguous about whether you should seek help at Leeds or not.
The sooner you speak to someone, the more likely you are to get to your destination sooner.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the 21:42 is cancelled, you would imagine that a taxi from Leeds to Doncaster would make the train for its 22:50 departure there.

Is it really a good idea to go to York on the next service? Wouldn't most people just want to do whatever would get them quickest to their ultimate destination.

I concede that not everyone is familiar with the rail network or the calling points on their subsequent train.

I think the much more difficult issue is if the 21:42 is running late but not cancelled. Then things are more ambiguous about whether you should seek help at Leeds or not.

I'd certainly ask for that, but I have been in a situation before where I did and it was refused (a cancellation on Merseyrail which could have been solved with a cheap taxi to Lime St but instead they said I'd have to get a longer one when I got there and the connection failed).

Turned out I made the connection but it wouldn't have been an "official" one, I did have to run.
 

Haywain

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If the 21:42 is cancelled, you would imagine that a taxi from Leeds to Doncaster would make the train for its 22:50 departure there.
You might think that but there are likely to be too many variables involved to make it worthy of consideration.
 

JonathanH

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You might think that but there are likely to be too many variables involved to make it worthy of consideration.
Yes, I imagine that it would be difficult to get approval for the platform staff at Leeds from TPE for a taxi over a route they don't serve.
 

221129

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Yes, I imagine that it would be difficult to get approval for the platform staff at Leeds from TPE for a taxi over a route they don't serve.
It really won't be as the alternative would be to London which they also don't serve.
 

Haywain

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Yes, I imagine that it would be difficult to get approval for the platform staff at Leeds from TPE for a taxi over a route they don't serve.
I was thinking more of the availability of a taxi - it's not as simple as jumping in one off the rank outside the station - and potential delays on route which could then mean a further missed connection.
 

221129

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I don't understand why some posters think it's so hard to arrange? This is a multiple time daily occurrence across the network. It only becomes an issue during larger or prolonged disruption as the taxi supply gets used up.
 

Haywain

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I don't understand why some posters think it's so hard to arrange? This is a multiple time daily occurrence across the network. It only becomes an issue during larger or prolonged disruption as the taxi supply gets used up.
Because taxi drivers prefer to be paid immediately rather than having to send invoices, and businesses don't have cash readily to hand. Instead they have contracts with specific companies but not drivers and cars waiting for the call as they may not earn anything otherwise. And the long journeys arise at less social hours when taxis are likely to be busier, increasing waiting times.
 

WelshBluebird

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I don't understand why some posters think it's so hard to arrange? This is a multiple time daily occurrence across the network. It only becomes an issue during larger or prolonged disruption as the taxi supply gets used up.
One of the big issues I've seen in such instances is actually finding some staff who are able to sort it out for you. Certainly for larger stations like Leeds and York this shouldn't be a problem, but for smaller stations, stations that are unmanned, or stations where the staff finish earlier than the rail services, this can prove a big problem. Hell even busy manned stations like Bristol Parkway I've had issues at where I've literally have to wander the station for a good ten minutes to find someone. Cardiff Central can also be an issue where after the ticket office downstairs closes it can be difficult to find station staff as they all seem to disappear when there is serious disruption!
 

221129

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Because taxi drivers prefer to be paid immediately rather than having to send invoices, and businesses don't have cash readily to hand. Instead they have contracts with specific companies but not drivers and cars waiting for the call as they may not earn anything otherwise. And the long journeys arise at less social hours when taxis are likely to be busier, increasing waiting times.
I know how it works thanks, but that is never something I or any of my colleagues have experienced. You might need to wait 20-30mins on a Friday or Saturday night if there isn't major disruption. There are a lot of people overthinking things here.

The reality is the OP would almost certainly be put on a train to somewhere closer to their destination if possible for a taxi forward. If not a taxi would be provided to somewhere that they could make the connection or to their destination. Its really that simple. Staff at major interchanges deal with this multiple times a day.

One of the big issues I've seen in such instances is actually finding some staff who are able to sort it out for you. Certainly for larger stations like Leeds and York this shouldn't be a problem, but for smaller stations, stations that are unmanned, or stations where the staff finish earlier than the rail services, this can prove a big problem. Hell even busy manned stations like Bristol Parkway I've had issues at where I've literally have to wander the station for a good ten minutes to find someone. Cardiff Central can also be an issue where after the ticket office downstairs closes it can be difficult to find station staff as they all seem to disappear when there is serious disruption!
I accept in the case of much smaller stations it would be more problematic and should have made clear in my post that I was referring to major stations with more connections.
 

island

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The last available timetabled train at Leeds to London King's Cross is the 21:42 involving a change of train at York arriving 22:13 with the LNER train departing 22:25.
What would happen if that 21:42 train to York was cancelled and there was no way for the passenger to get to York for the 22:25?
I would like to know the official policy in such an instance as that 22:25 is apparently the last train to London from York.
There is a 21:48 from Leeds but that involves a journey of 8½ hours with a wait of 2hrs 24m at Derby in the middle of the night which I personally do not consider a reasonable journey.
You are entitled to be conveyed by or at the cost of the train company to your final booked railway destination. In certain circumstances, an overnight stay may be necessary, also at the cost of the train company.

If your travel is disrupted and you have a concern that you might miss a last connection, it's sensible to consult staff in person or via a help point at the earliest opportunity. Staff will usually work to find appropriate solutions, which can include taxis for some or all of the journey or holding a connecting train.

In the mentioned case I suspect they might well put you in a taxi from Leeds to Doncaster to meet your train; it's less than an hour's drive and the train leaves Doncaster at 22:50.
 

johntea

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Because taxi drivers prefer to be paid immediately rather than having to send invoices, and businesses don't have cash readily to hand. Instead they have contracts with specific companies but not drivers and cars waiting for the call as they may not earn anything otherwise. And the long journeys arise at less social hours when taxis are likely to be busier, increasing waiting times.

There was a time several years ago where the taxi drivers at Wakefield Westgate flat out refused to provide a taxi replacement service for East Coast as apparently they were rather delayed in paying the business! Had to fork out of my own pocket and submit the receipt to customer relations who provided a full refund and a bit of compensation on top
 

Glenn1969

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There was a time several years ago where the taxi drivers at Wakefield Westgate flat out refused to provide a taxi replacement service for East Coast as apparently they were rather delayed in paying the business! Had to fork out of my own pocket and submit the receipt to customer relations who provided a full refund and a bit of compensation on top
My thought about this is also that is Leeds to London via York actually a valid route given that surely Leeds- Kings X is cheaper than York?
 

Deerfold

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I don't understand why some posters think it's so hard to arrange? This is a multiple time daily occurrence across the network. It only becomes an issue during larger or prolonged disruption as the taxi supply gets used up.
At Leeds, fewer and fewer drivers are willing to take Rail passengers due to the delay in getting paid. Last time I was delayed at Leeds (in 2019, after several LNER services were delayed) it was taking up to 3 hours to put people in taxis. The staff weren't doing it very efficiently , either (they were dealing with 1 train at a time and sending out taxis that weren't full without checking if there were passengers from later trains wanting the same destinations). We ended up calling our local taxi company in Keighley after an hour and leaving within 2 hours - they were just starting to ask people from our train where they were going when it arrived. We did get the fare refunded.

I used to regularly travel on the 2003 out of London which would miss my last train out of Leeds 3 or 4 times a year and there used to be far more cabs available.

My thought about this is also that is Leeds to London via York actually a valid route given that surely Leeds- Kings X is cheaper than York?
The two are inter available. An Anytime Single or season ticket is the same price for both. The only times I've travelled York to London or back has been on a Leeds to London season ticket.
 

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