MML vs ECML some thoughts

[DanTrain]

Yes in an ideal world I would have the usage stats for just the IC services, but it isn't, and Leeds has a disproportionate usage compared to all of the other stations.
Yes Derby and Sheffield have connecting services, but so does Leicester, Peterborough and Doncaster!
But my point is that, Leeds has a much denser network of lines, which makes it much more difficult to determine usage of LNER services.
Same with Edinburgh, which has lots of Scotrail services, and the train has a much smaller modal share to London than all the other cities, which makes the usage stats useless in this case.

All I'm saying is that the usage figures gives us a rough idea about the usage of both the ECML and MML for intercity travel, and that the MML is relatively close to the ECML figures, even though one is the premier route, and the other is considered a 'rural backwater' in comparison.

However the usage figures show that apart from Leeds and Edinburgh, the MML is just as important as the ECML in the places it serves, arguably the MML should be higher as Nottingham, Leicester, Derby etc have a much higher population than Peterborough, Doncaster etc.

If you read the EMT franchise thread it's clear that some people think that the, MML isn't a 'proper intercity' route. It should be a thought as a major intercity line just like the ECML, WCML, GWML etc, and therefore it should get the same level of investment as the other lines, such as proper length trains, electrification, proper Sunday timetables etc.

I agree with you on most of that, and of course Leeds/Edinburgh would skew the stats, but that doesn't actually make your comparison any more valid statistically speaking.

What the MML really needs is a) some proper bi-modes capable of 125 on both diesel and electric and b) more priority between Bedford and London. None of the other mainlines have to yield to endless suburban services in anything like the way EMT do...no wonder people are getting fed up with them!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS2, when it's finished, will render all this "my line is best" irrelevant.
The crunch will be when the Edinburgh services move over to the WCML via HS2 (assuming they do, it will be years before the final decision is made).
Today, the WCML carries more traffic overall, and much more freight traffic, than either the ECML or MML.
If DfT chose to serve Edinburgh via the WCML today, it would be as fast as today's ECML.
It's only BR history which sent them all via the ECML, plus more recently the Inverness, Perth and Aberdeen services which used to use the WCML.

For me, the MML stopped being a primary main line when the Manchester services via Matlock were cut, and moved to the WCML.
The London-Leeds(-Scotland) services were also cut back in favour of the ECML, leaving Sheffield as the northern limit.
The GC route fared even worse and was closed as a through route.
Both MML and GC were competitive until first the WCML and then the ECML were sped up by BR.
Also the MML and GC were dominated by East Midlands/S Yorks coal traffic which has vanished.
The MML has recently improved and more is promised, but so have the ECML and WCML, and now we have HS2.

 

[Senex]

look, any fule know the east coast is the premier route. Why? Serves Darlo...........

My completely unscientific view: I always find the MML a bit of a backwater and more of a regional route with a commuter line stuck on the southern end. The ECML and WCML feel like express railways. The MML doesn't. Why I don't know.

And yet once upon a time the Midland was par excellence a long-distance railway, with pretty minimal local traffic at the London end by comparison with the other main lines.

 

[tbtc]

If you read the EMT franchise thread it's clear that some people think that the, MML isn't a 'proper intercity' route. It should be a thought as a major intercity line just like the ECML, WCML, GWML etc, and therefore it should get the same level of investment as the other lines, such as proper length trains, electrification, proper Sunday timetables etc.

I live in Sheffield and use the MML - and I feel that the MML isn't in the same league as the ECML/ WCML/ GWML - it's a shorter route with very little 125mph running - the MML has more in common with the GEML (than it does with the "big three").

Going back to BR days, the MML was never at the top table, in my lifetime anyhow. We still had 45s until the mid 1980s (when the ECML had replaced the Deltics with HSTs and was ready to replace them with 91s).

I think that the "Main Line" name beloved by enthusiasts elevates it higher than where it probably ought to sit - not everything is black/white, just like not everything fits neat categories - if the MML was a continent it'd be Australia (rather than Europe/ Asia/ Africa) - if the MML was a planet it'd be Pluto - it's an important route but I don't see it as belonging at the top table of routes.

Back in my YTS days (1988/9) the MML service was every 90 minutes to Leicester (terminate) and every 90 minutes to both Nottingham and Sheffield, meaning every 30 minutes London to Leicester. A real mixed bag of stopping patterns South of Leicester.

It was terrible south of Leicester until National Express's Midland Mainline introduced the 170s.

The WCML has in my opinion always been the premier main line in the UK linking London with Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow.

I'd argue that, in terms of prestige, the ECML was the premier line - it can't compete with the revenues of the WCML (because it doesn't serve as many big places), it can't compete with the frequencies of the WCML, but it's the route of Mallard, the route of Flying Scotsman, the green and gold of LNER - it's the line that people who know nothing else about trains know about. It's the National Railway museum, the wonderful views of Durham, the Royal Border Bridge. And in more recent times, Platform Nine And Three Quarters.

In terms of WCML features that have permeated popular culture, there's only really the Night Mail poem that sticks out - I don't think that the LMS is something that registers in most people's memories - even if it was busier or generated more money - the ECML is the one that has a place in the imagination/memory of the Great British Public (rightly or wrongly).

I'd argue that the GWML relegates the WCML to third (given the affection for Brunel, the chocolate livery, the quaint Cornish branch lines connecting off it etc).

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree with you on most of that, and of course Leeds/Edinburgh would skew the stats, but that doesn't actually make your comparison any more valid statistically speaking.

What the MML really needs is a) some proper bi-modes capable of 125 on both diesel and electric and b) more priority between Bedford and London. None of the other mainlines have to yield to endless suburban services in anything like the way EMT do...no wonder people are getting fed up with them!

Re point B - that’s because there are a lot more people on the MML suburban trains compared to the long distance services than is the case on the ECML, WCML, and GWML. And those suburban commuters provide a lot more income to the railway than EMTs long distance passengers, in total.

Having said that I do agree that the peak direction peak EMT services do get a raw deal.

Re the premier long distance line - it’s the WCML. And not just because it was the first one.

 

[yorksrob]

Re point B - that’s because there are a lot more people on the MML suburban trains compared to the long distance services than is the case on the ECML, WCML, and GWML. And those suburban commuters provide a lot more income to the railway than EMTs long distance passengers, in total.

Having said that I do agree that the peak direction peak EMT services do get a raw deal.
.

Even so, it's still a glorified outer- suburban commuter service. If you're that concerned about its passengers, give them some decent seats and a buffet trolley to make the journey better.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, it will be a shame for us West Yorkshire based MML users.

I still regard it as a proper InterCity service, whatever anyone says. I've been on enough regional and commuter trains to know the difference !

But there are alternatives such as XC!

look, any fule know the east coast is the premier route. Why? Serves Darlo...........

My completely unscientific view: I always find the MML a bit of a backwater and more of a regional route with a commuter line stuck on the southern end. The ECML and WCML feel like express railways. The MML doesn't. Why I don't know.

Not really anything to do with the route itself, but the systemic lack of investment and poor service.

Even so, it's still a glorified outer- suburban commuter service. If you're that concerned about its passengers, give them some decent seats and a buffet trolley to make the journey better.

How is it an 'outer suburban commuter' service?
It travels almost 200 miles, which is way too far away from London for any significant amount of London commuters.
I don't think there's many commuters from Leicester!
So you would apply the same logic to the GWML Bristol and Cardiff services as well?

 

[VT 390]

But there are alternatives such as XC!

XC is an alternative but other than the HST XC workings they are all very busy (especially the Leeds services) so would there be enough capacity on these services?

 

[cactustwirly]

XC is an alternative but other than the HST XC workings they are all very busy (especially the Leeds services) so would there be enough capacity on these services?

Yes because EMT operate a very limited service at quiet times of day anyway!

 

[yorksrob]

But there are alternatives such as XC!



Not really anything to do with the route itself, but the systemic lack of investment and poor service.


How is it an 'outer suburban commuter' service?
It travels almost 200 miles, which is way too far away from London for any significant amount of London commuters.
I don't think there's many commuters from Leicester!
So you would apply the same logic to the GWML Bristol and Cardiff services as well?

Cardiff and Bristol are a tad further out than Bedford I think !

 

[cactustwirly]

Cardiff and Bristol are a tad further out than Bedford I think !

But the MML goes to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield....
Bedford is only a minor destination!

 

[Starmill]

I don't think that the LMS is something that registers in most people's memories

It certainly registered in my psyche. At the time it was formed, it was thought to be the largest transport company in the world. Today, I think it's Deutsche Bahn.

 

[yorksrob]

But the MML goes to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield....
Bedford is only a minor destination!

Yes, which is why the InterCity services go to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield, while the glorified outer-suburbans go to Bedford......

 

[Starmill]

How is it an 'outer suburban commuter' service?
It travels almost 200 miles, which is way too far away from London for any significant amount of London commuters.

I think he's talking about Bedford <> London and beyond services.

 

[Starmill]

glorified outer-suburbans go to Bedford.

They're not really glorified. They are outer-suburban trains. They just happen to be the ones making the money.

 

[yorksrob]

They're not really glorified. They are outer-suburban trains. They just happen to be the ones making the money.

Indeed, you know what I mean though

 

[cuccir]

So by that logic, the GWML to Bristol/Cardiff, WCML to Birmingham/Manchester aren't long distance services either?
Yes it's competitor is the M1, so what? The competitor of the GWML is the M4, and the WCML is the M6...

With regards to length, you've missed the key bit of what I said, which was "by comparison to the other mainlines".

With regards the M1, I was following your comparison between the MML and ECML and pointing out that the latter has to compete with air travel. This is one of the explanations for some of its features eg a better first class offering.

None of these statements are attempts to do the MML down. It's just a different line to the WCML and ECML in particular. The GWML is much more similar to it, with the exception of services to the South West Peninsula, and probably a fairer comparison.

 

[AM9]

Because the MML is to a great extent a commuter line.

Cambridge has almost 11,000,000 and is only served by suburban EMUs and a few DMUs to Mordor

A fair proportion of that almost 11m are commuters and they are served by outer suburban 100mph EMUS.

 

[atraindriver]

It travels almost 200 miles, which is way too far away from London for any significant amount of London commuters.
I don't think there's many commuters from Leicester!

I think EMT would disagree with you "somewhat" with regard to the number of commuters from Leicester to London.
EMT are also well aware that there is a not insignificant Nottingham-London commuter market which mostly travels via Grantham to & from Kings Cross, which is money lost to them.

Stagecoach UK Rail will, if you have the right contacts, quite happily tell you about the rather significant number of long-distance commuters they (as VTEC) were taking large amounts of money off for seasons from York and Leeds to London, both of which are just a tad further north than Sheffield, something which rather suggests your argument that Sheffield is "too far away" is not as solid as you appear to believe it is.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think EMT would disagree with you "somewhat" with regard to the number of commuters from Leicester to London.
EMT are also well aware that there is a not insignificant Nottingham-London commuter market which mostly travels via Grantham to & from Kings Cross, which is money lost to them.

Stagecoach UK Rail will, if you have the right contacts, quite happily tell you about the rather significant number of long-distance commuters they (as VTEC) were taking large amounts of money off for seasons from York and Leeds to London, both of which are just a tad further north than Sheffield, something which rather suggests your argument that Sheffield is "too far away" is not as solid as you appear to believe it is.

I get that, but it's too far away to have numbers like Maidenhead, Reading, St Albans etc.

 

[thenorthern]

One thing to remember is the Midland Main Line is the main London to East Midlands/Sheffield route.

Generally the East Midlands cities (Derby, Leicester and Nottingham) are very car dependent compared to most cities of a similar size and if you look at usage figures for the stations they are rather low for the size of the cities. This may be a reason why the Midland Main Line is not seen as important compared to other main lines.

 

[atraindriver]

I get that, but it's too far away to have numbers like Maidenhead, Reading, St Albans etc.

Ah, watch those goalposts move...

 

[DanTrain]

One thing to remember is the Midland Main Line is the main London to East Midlands/Sheffield route.

Generally the East Midlands cities (Derby, Leicester and Nottingham) are very car dependent compared to most cities of a similar size and if you look at usage figures for the stations they are rather low for the size of the cities. This may be a reason why the Midland Main Line is not seen as important compared to other main lines.

What evidence do you have for this...Nottingham had a tram system for a start, which is more than can be said for Leeds.

I would however agree that driving to London is much more accepted in Sheffield/East Mids than in places such as Newcastle, where the speed of trains/lack of speed of A1 tips the balance in favour of the train. I suspect the same goes for the WCML as places such as Manchester and Liverpool have to drive round Birmingham to get to London, again making the fast train service more attactive.

 

[The Box Photter]

Probably more noticeable if the entire line south of Bedford wasn’t flooded with 100mph commuter trains given priority over everything else.

Sorry, just spat my coffee over my keyboard.

MML (EMT) trains monopolise the fast lines south of Bedford to the detriment of the thousands of daily Thameslink commuters. Thameslink services are now slower than before since stoppers and semi-fasts mostly have to share the slow lines between Bedford and Radlett Junction.

Historically the GNR were beastly to the MR and wouldn't allow the MR to run as many trains as they wanted into London when they shared the tracks south of Sandy. It was also a much slower route to Scotland (via the S&C) and since the Anglo-Scottish services were withdrawn post-Beeching the line had been successively downgraded in status. Post-privatisation, it's still not viewed as a strategic line for long-distance passengers and might be impacted even more negatively if HS2 is built and the metropolitan elite choose that as a preferred way of reaching the "Northern Powerhouse".

It's been suggested that Thameslink should expand to take on the Corby services once that line is electrified. That would be a disaster for passengers commuting into London now from Bedford and stations south thereof who currently struggle to find a seat for their 50 minute journey to/from work. In addition, the fragility of the service based on it's current end to end distance of 130 miles or so would be significantly worsened by extending the length of service northwards bay another 30 miles or so.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Sorry, just spat my coffee over my keyboard.

MML (EMT) trains monopolise the fast lines south of Bedford to the detriment of the thousands of daily Thameslink commuters

I see. I must be imagining getting checked down to a stand at Chiltern Green and then following one to West Hampstead at 100mph on most trips.

Won’t somebody please think of the poor hard done to Thameslink commuters for once...

 

[whhistle]

MML (EMT) trains monopolise the fast lines south of Bedford to the detriment of the thousands of daily Thameslink commuters.

Just like Virgin do on the West Coast?



Some thoughts about Nottingham - London:
1 Month Season: £944 (via Grantham)
1 Month Season: £951 (any route)

Journey Time:
1hr 58 (via Grantham)
1hr 50 (direct)
(average times)

Not that much different really.

 

[LeeLivery]

I'd argue that, in terms of prestige, the ECML was the premier line - it can't compete with the revenues of the WCML (because it doesn't serve as many big places), it can't compete with the frequencies of the WCML, but it's the route of Mallard, the route of Flying Scotsman, the green and gold of LNER - it's the line that people who know nothing else about trains know about. It's the National Railway museum, the wonderful views of Durham, the Royal Border Bridge. And in more recent times, Platform Nine And Three Quarters.

In terms of WCML features that have permeated popular culture, there's only really the Night Mail poem that sticks out - I don't think that the LMS is something that registers in most people's memories - even if it was busier or generated more money - the ECML is the one that has a place in the imagination/memory of the Great British Public (rightly or wrongly).

I'd argue that the GWML relegates the WCML to third (given the affection for Brunel, the chocolate livery, the quaint Cornish branch lines connecting off it etc).

This is it for me, it's the prestige and the most well known history. I know I'm speaking from an enthusiast standpoint, but I don't feel that with the WCML. The West Coast feels like the busy workhorse which happens to use tilt and has an ugly London terminal.

I think EMT would disagree with you "somewhat" with regard to the number of commuters from Leicester to London.
EMT are also well aware that there is a not insignificant Nottingham-London commuter market which mostly travels via Grantham to & from Kings Cross, which is money lost to them.

Stagecoach UK Rail will, if you have the right contacts, quite happily tell you about the rather significant number of long-distance commuters they (as VTEC) were taking large amounts of money off for seasons from York and Leeds to London, both of which are just a tad further north than Sheffield, something which rather suggests your argument that Sheffield is "too far away" is not as solid as you appear to believe it is.

I haven't done this journey since the end of VTEC, but it was EMTs website providing cheap tickets via Grantham. Coming from London on a Sunday, a load of young people jump off at Grantham and fill a 156 to Nottingham. It relieved the pressure on the rubbish timetable but also assumed it was also because they were both Stagecoach operated.

One thing to remember is the Midland Main Line is the main London to East Midlands/Sheffield route.

Generally the East Midlands cities (Derby, Leicester and Nottingham) are very car dependent compared to most cities of a similar size and if you look at usage figures for the stations they are rather low for the size of the cities. This may be a reason why the Midland Main Line is not seen as important compared to other main lines.

You can very easily survive in Nottingham without a car. Broxstowe, not so much, but the buses are trams are very well used.

Sorry, just spat my coffee over my keyboard.

MML (EMT) trains monopolise the fast lines south of Bedford to the detriment of the thousands of daily Thameslink commuters. Thameslink services are now slower than before since stoppers and semi-fasts mostly have to share the slow lines between Bedford and Radlett Junction.

It's been suggested that Thameslink should expand to take on the Corby services once that line is electrified. That would be a disaster for passengers commuting into London now from Bedford and stations south thereof who currently struggle to find a seat for their 50 minute journey to/from work. In addition, the fragility of the service based on it's current end to end distance of 130 miles or so would be significantly worsened by extending the length of service northwards bay another 30 miles or so.

Eh? InterCity trains should dominate the fasts, that's kind of the point of them. Anyway, they're often delayed due to Thameslink, following them for tens of miles at a reduced speed for you lot. As for Thameslink taking over Corby, I do support that, but not by extending current TL trains from Bedford as journey times would be too long. I want Corby services with the current stopping pattern heading into the core. 2tph express TL trains to Bedford would mean more seats for the very commuters you're worried about!

 

[Kettledrum]

Just like Virgin do on the West Coast?
Some thoughts about Nottingham - London:
1 Month Season: £944 (via Grantham)
1 Month Season: £951 (any route)

Journey Time:
1hr 58 (via Grantham)
1hr 50 (direct)
(average times)
Not that much different really.

But if you live on the south or East of Nottingham, you might be tempted to drive to Grantham to commute rather than make the journey into Nottingham - and Grantham to London is much quicker (1hr 12)

 

[Ianno87]

Just like Virgin do on the West Coast?

MML Fast Lines Peak - about 5 EMT, 7/8 TL per hour,
Off Peak = 5 EMT, 4 TL per hour

WCML Fast Lines peak - about 10-11 VT per hour, 4-5 LNW per hour,
Off-peak - 9 VT per hour, 3 LNW per hour

So the WCML fasts are 'monopolised' by VT much, much more than EMT do the MML fasts, particularly in the peak.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to post an idea for changes to service provision, please create a newthread in Speculative Ideas.

Please do not use this thread, which is to discuss comparisons between the MML and ECML.

Thank you.