Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[py_megapixel]

They might not drive - they might go the following weekend instead if it's booked up.

No, no, no!!! This is exactly the kind of trap the industry needs to NOT fall into. The railway is there to serve its passengers. Not the other way round. It is nothing short of arrogant to assume that somebody will plan their journey around when LNER finds it convenient to take them.

People who treat their vehicle as the de-facto mode of transport - of which there are many, and who they really need to be attracting to rail - are used to planning their trip, and then fitting the transport (i.e. their route by road) around it. They might wait an hour or two to avoid travelling in rush hour, but they aren't going to be changing the days they travel on.

If I spoke to someone who was planning a trip, and said "Why don't you go on the train instead of driving? You should be able to get a ticket for within a week of when you want to travel" - I think they'd assume I was joking. It's such a hard sell as to be almost comical.

 

[route101]

How many people are actually traveling all way from KGX to Edinburgh?
Most people traveling to Edinburgh would fly because it's cheaper and quicker. I'd be surprised if LNER advances are cheaper than easyJet.

Loads, especially in the summer. Not sure if its any quicker apart from London City. Glasgow to London is a bit quieter with through passengers.

Part of the hassle is getting to the airport at both ends, Glasgow is a £25 taxi or Hour and half with train/bus from my house. London to Glasgow my I prefer train about tea time. Of course it depends where you need to go.

 

[telstarbox]

Edinburgh is full of English people - they must come from somewhere!

 

[sheff1]

Edinburgh is full of English people - they must come from somewhere!

Morningside, Stockbridge & Colinton

 

[Bikeman78]

I think their argument is that the risk of standing/being on an overcrowded train is enough of an off-putter that they will attract more business (onto trains that weren't full otherwise) even though some trains will carry rather fewer passengers than they do now.

I'm getting increasingly confused by this discussion. It seems that LNER thinks overcrowded trains will put people off. Despite this, the same trains are (or were) routinely overcrowded on certain days of the week or at certain times of year so clearly it isn't putting many people off. The reason the trains are busy is because that is when people want to travel. The unpopular trains already have cheap Advance tickets which fail to tempt many people on to them. People going away for Easter are unlikely to switch to the 0700 from King's Cross.

 

[Kite159]

How many people are actually traveling all way from KGX to Edinburgh?
Most people traveling to Edinburgh would fly because it's cheaper and quicker. I'd be surprised if LNER advances are cheaper than easyJet.

Probably a few due to the railway not having any real restrictions for luggage, unlike the airline which can be cheap but they soon make money if you want to take a larger bag

But for weekend getaways the plane can be hard to beat (£16 for a flight from Inverness to Luton, even if it means taking part in the random seat generator)

 

[Journeyman]

Probably a few due to the railway not having any real restrictions for luggage, unlike the airline which can be cheap but they soon make money if you want to take a larger bag

But for weekend getaways the plane can be hard to beat (£16 for a flight from Inverness to Luton, even if it means taking part in the random seat generator)

How easy is it to get a £16 seat, though? This is what annoys me about plane/train price comparisons, they'll always compare a Ryanair 1p special with no luggage allowance that's available in tiny numbers with anytime train fares. The reality is nowhere near that simple.

 

[Kite159]

How easy is it to get a £16 seat, though? This is what annoys me about plane/train price comparisons, they'll always compare a Ryanair 1p special with no luggage allowance that's available in tiny numbers with anytime train fares. The reality is nowhere near that simple.

Depends how busy the route is, that was for a October flight departing Inverness airport at 11:40 so not one of those early morning/late evening flights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How easy is it to get a £16 seat, though? This is what annoys me about plane/train price comparisons, they'll always compare a Ryanair 1p special with no luggage allowance that's available in tiny numbers with anytime train fares. The reality is nowhere near that simple.

Though you can kind-of see why they do, because on an airline like easyJet or Ryanair where all tickets are changeable there's no point buying anything other than the cheapest fare. (I wonder how many of those one-free-change "flexi fares" they sell? Not many I expect). With air travel you can't have the advantage of a walk-up ticket of just walking up and plonking yourself on the first plane you feel like.

This of course could lose LNER money. Normally I buy (Super) Off Peak Returns on the day of travel, partly because I'm disorganised and partly because I like the flexibility of stopping off or changing route along the way. If I can't do that, I might as well buy the cheapest Advance.

 

[Journeyman]

Though you can kind-of see why they do, because on an airline like easyJet or Ryanair where all tickets are changeable there's no point buying anything other than the cheapest fare. (I wonder how many of those one-free-change "flexi fares" they sell? Not many I expect). With air travel you can't have the advantage of a walk-up ticket of just walking up and plonking yourself on the first plane you feel like.

This of course could lose LNER money. Normally I buy (Super) Off Peak Returns on the day of travel, partly because I'm disorganised and partly because I like the flexibility of stopping off or changing route along the way. If I can't do that, I might as well buy the cheapest Advance.

Are they all changeable? I thought you had to pay through the nose to change bookings. Ryanair in particular charge eye-watering fees for that sort of thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they all changeable? I thought you had to pay through the nose to change bookings. Ryanair in particular charge eye-watering fees for that sort of thing.

There is a fee, yes (I think it's £35 on Sleasy, but they also let you take an earlier flight on the day for a much smaller fee, used to be free, and similarly there's a flat "rescue fee" for getting on the next flight if you miss yours), but all tickets are changeable, so it's a similar situation to railway Advances. If you've paid less than the change fee it is of course not worth changing it and better just rebooking.

This was a quite considerable difference from legacy airlines where, before the orange and blue teams existed, any even vaguely good value fares were completely non-changeable and non-refundable.

 

[Starmill]

I find it very odd that there's a group of people who always argues for 'quality and ambience' when the subject is compulsory reservation, and that same group so often argues when the subject is seating, lighting, or quality of interior fixtures or services (free of bad smells, good catering, charging sockets etc) that these things are totally secondary and that only enthusiasts on a train forum would be bothered about them.

As I've suggested before, I personally think that quality is always the way to go, and I think that there are far better ways to improve ambience than introducing mandatory reservation. Unfortunately most trains in this country don't have strong quality focus.

 

[andy1571]

I sense this is the thin end of the wedge to the longer distance operators’ desire to become airlines on rails.

So if reservations become compulsory, how about some nice premium add-ons? Window seat sir? Certainly, that’s a £15 supplement. Table seat madam? Yours for £30. You want to sit together with your family? Pay a premium to guarantee or else Mum will end up in Coach A, Dad in Coach C, little Johnny in Coach F, and Granny in coach Z. Of course you can take hand luggage, but a suitcase? Ooh no, you’ve got to book those which is another (name your fee) on top.

Any subsequent pressure to discontinue flexible ticketing would also then permit demand-responsive, yield driven pricing - great for those who know exactly where they are travelling in February 2023, but not so great for those travelling at busier times, or at short notice.

Of course, I’d like to say all the above is entirely facetious, but given some of the zany ruses that have come out of the railway in recent years, who can tell? Especially as the DfT needs to find some way of extracting maximum revenue from the railway fairly urgently.

I really hope some people on here are a bit more careful what they wish for.

 

[telstarbox]

Budget airlines can get away with that because if you want to go to Croatia or a Greek island it's realistically flying or not going (and you'll tolerate it for a once a year trip). For London to Scotland there are competing modes as already mentioned in this thread (and there is more competition for the custom of frequent travellers).

 

[bramling]

I find it very odd that there's a group of people who always argues for 'quality and ambience' when the subject is compulsory reservation, and that same group so often argues when the subject is seating, lighting, or quality of interior fixtures or services (free of bad smells, good catering, charging sockets etc) that these things are totally secondary and that only enthusiasts on a train forum would be bothered about them.

I was wondering the self-same thing.

 

[Taunton]

One of the things that would happen with compulsory reservations is that the service would then be progressively reduced, especially at high demand times, to what was convenient to the TOC, as opposed to providing a useful service to society. Yes we have availability - at 5.30am. And if you think that won't happen, it's exactly what you get with Eurostar at busy times.

Frankly, if this is the best that LNER can come up with at a time when, after some huge government support that has kept them all going there while so many others in society have lost their jobs or their businesses, serious questions should be asked of their Chief Executive whether they should be replaced.

 

[bramling]

One of the things that would happen with compulsory reservations is that the service would then be progressively reduced, especially at high demand times, to what was convenient to the TOC, as opposed to providing a useful service to society. Yes we have availability - at 5.30am. And if you think that won't happen, it's exactly what you get with Eurostar at busy times.

Frankly, if this is the best that LNER can come up with at a time when, after some huge government support that has kept them all going there while so many others in society have lost their jobs or their businesses, serious questions should be asked of their Chief Executive whether they should be replaced.

Yes another aspect to it is if spare capacity is timetabled out (which on LNER could quite easily happen by making more use of single 5-car trains - something we're already seeing hints of at present), one has to ask the question as to how responsive they might be at putting it back for times when there's increases in demand.

A football match for example, would they put on an extra train or lengthen existing ones, or just say "sorry - sold out" - and perhaps leave it to the local staff to manage the inevitable surge of disgruntled people who turn up on the day?

This doesn't seem to reconcile well with the message from some posters who wish to move people out of their cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the things that would happen with compulsory reservations is that the service would then be progressively reduced, especially at high demand times, to what was convenient to the TOC, as opposed to providing a useful service to society. Yes we have availability - at 5.30am. And if you think that won't happen, it's exactly what you get with Eurostar at busy times.

It would certainly be a concern that XC might use it to hide their capacity issue and thus provide an excuse for funding not to be provided to resolve said issue.

Yes another aspect to it is if spare capacity is timetabled out (which on LNER could quite easily happen by making more use of single 5-car trains - something we're already seeing hints of at present), one has to ask the question as to how responsive they might be at putting it back for times when there's increases in demand.

A football match for example, would they put on an extra train or lengthen existing ones, or just say "sorry - sold out" - and perhaps leave it to the local staff to manage the inevitable surge of disgruntled people who turn up on the day?

This doesn't seem to reconcile well with the message from some posters who wish to move people out of their cars.

One option it does offer if done well (and this is what NatEx used to do when they were allowed to add extras with inaccessible coaches) is that they watch reservations growing over time (as more people will book in advance under such a system to ensure they can travel) and if it looks like it's getting busy they could either see about timetabling an additional train a few minutes later or extending a 5-car train to 10. That is, you'd have your base timetable and diagrams set up based on a lower frequency and 5-car trains (where possible), and the rest of the fleet used more dynamically.

That does require rather a change of mindset in the railway (both TOC and NR), however, and thus is a bit of a longshot.

 

[zwk500]

I sense this is the thin end of the wedge to the longer distance operators’ desire to become airlines on rails.

So if reservations become compulsory, how about some nice premium add-ons? Window seat sir? Certainly, that’s a £15 supplement. Table seat madam? Yours for £30. You want to sit together with your family? Pay a premium to guarantee or else Mum will end up in Coach A, Dad in Coach C, little Johnny in Coach F, and Granny in coach Z. Of course you can take hand luggage, but a suitcase? Ooh no, you’ve got to book those which is another (name your fee) on top.

Any subsequent pressure to discontinue flexible ticketing would also then permit demand-responsive, yield driven pricing - great for those who know exactly where they are travelling in February 2023, but not so great for those travelling at busier times, or at short notice.

Of course, I’d like to say all the above is entirely facetious, but given some of the zany ruses that have come out of the railway in recent years, who can tell? Especially as the DfT needs to find some way of extracting maximum revenue from the railway fairly urgently.

I really hope some people on here are a bit more careful what they wish for.

I think this is a valid concern - although a group that books together would almost certainly be reserved together (if it fitted neatly, could see a group of 5 being given 4 at a table + 1 far away instead of 3+2). However, if it means overall fares can be reduced for those willing to accept what they are given, I'd be cautiously willing to give it a trial.

One option it does offer if done well (and this is what NatEx used to do when they were allowed to add extras with inaccessible coaches) is that they watch reservations growing over time (as more people will book in advance under such a system to ensure they can travel) and if it looks like it's getting busy they could either see about timetabling an additional train a few minutes later or extending a 5-car train to 10. That is, you'd have your base timetable and diagrams set up based on a lower frequency and 5-car trains (where possible), and the rest of the fleet used more dynamically.

That does require rather a change of mindset in the railway (both TOC and NR), however, and thus is a bit of a longshot.

It would require spare paths already in the timetable and every path planned for the longest possible length, which would waste a significant amount of potential capacity. It is an idea worth considering on some routes though, especially those with the greatest difference in seasonal demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

How many people are actually traveling all way from KGX to Edinburgh?

About 4,000 - 5,0000 people a day (normal times, on average)

Most people traveling to Edinburgh would fly because it's cheaper and quicker. I'd be surprised if LNER advances are cheaper than easyJet.

A few are, but there is a market perception that the train is a better experience. And whilst it is a longer time for the main haul, the door to door times are often fairly similar, particularly if you are starting and finishing in central / inner London / Edinburgh.

 

[Ianigsy]

Has there been any indication as to how LNER have been coping over the last couple of days picking up the through Scottish traffic from Avanti?

 

[bramling]

It would certainly be a concern that XC might use it to hide their capacity issue and thus provide an excuse for funding not to be provided to resolve said issue.



One option it does offer if done well (and this is what NatEx used to do when they were allowed to add extras with inaccessible coaches) is that they watch reservations growing over time (as more people will book in advance under such a system to ensure they can travel) and if it looks like it's getting busy they could either see about timetabling an additional train a few minutes later or extending a 5-car train to 10. That is, you'd have your base timetable and diagrams set up based on a lower frequency and 5-car trains (where possible), and the rest of the fleet used more dynamically.

That does require rather a change of mindset in the railway (both TOC and NR), however, and thus is a bit of a longshot.

The chances of the latter happening in practice are very minimal. TOCs won’t want crews (and rolling stock) sitting around just in case. Especially on Intercity routes where a crew is several people.

 

[mark-h]

It would certainly be a concern that XC might use it to hide their capacity issue and thus provide an excuse for funding not to be provided to resolve said issue.

It could make capacity problems easier to identify as a train would sell out and become unavailable rather than just become overcrowded.

 

[Taunton]

It could make capacity problems easier to identify as a train would sell out and become unavailable rather than just become overcrowded.

However are grossly overcrowded trains not "easy to identify" for professional railway management?

 

[lkpridgeon]

It could make capacity problems easier to identify as a train would sell out and become unavailable rather than just become overcrowded.

I'd beg to differ here, it'll make is easier to ignore that there's pent up demand at a given time/for a given route. It essentially hides the problem (unless they go out of their way to look at it).

The only thing I can see happening is increased fares to account for the lack of standees/to suppress demand.

 

[greyman42]

A football match for example, would they put on an extra train or lengthen existing ones, or just say "sorry - sold out" - and perhaps leave it to the local staff to manage the inevitable surge of disgruntled people who turn up on the day?

A good point. I was thinking of Newcastle as being the best example with many travelling from/to Durham and Darlington.

 

[bramling]

It could make capacity problems easier to identify as a train would sell out and become unavailable rather than just become overcrowded.

Surely the reservations system already does that?

Failing that, TOCs should have a pretty good idea which services load heavily and when, especially if they have a mechanism for picking up events on or near their route.

 

[Taunton]

The key overcrowding issues seem to have happened (for me) when a service is cancelled, and the next one gets overloaded. So what happens then? "Push off and come back tomorrow"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could make capacity problems easier to identify as a train would sell out and become unavailable rather than just become overcrowded.

True, but I don't think "sold out" is as much of a calamity to show in the Press as against a visibly overcrowded train.

 

[Domh245]

True, but I don't think "sold out" is as much of a calamity to show in the Press as against a visibly overcrowded train.

Only takes one tearful "I didn't get to see my dying mum/dad/gerbil because the train was sold out and they wouldn't let me on" story to garner more negative press than a slew of "train was visibly overcrowded" stories. Though the key difference I suppose is that story one generates "national outrage" and story(ies) two generates disquiet amongst potential passengers