Modern trains and modern lighting

[yorksrob]

Why is it that the night time National Express coach can switch to subdued lighting, for the comfort of passengers at night, yet train passengers are expected to endure blinding extream light as soon as the Sun goes down?

 

[Huntergreed]

Why is it that the night time National Express coach can switch to subdued lighting, for the comfort of passengers at night, yet train passengers are expected to endure blinding extream light as soon as the Sun goes down?

Elf' and Safety innit?

No doubt because passengers are more likely to walk around on a moving train, the lighting must be suitable and allow for this without causing potential trip hazards if it's too dark (luggage in aisles, walking to buffet, trolley services, walking to toilet etc...)

I expect that on a train, it's neccessary for passengers to be able to evacuate quickly using the emergency windows (which would require passengers seeing where they are) whereas on a coach the driver can simply give instructions there and then (can't rely on announcements only for trains due to passengers with hearing difficulties etc...)

I expect this is the reasoning anyway. Whether it's actually needed is another thing entirely, but now more than ever, we life in a 'zero-risk' society.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why is it that the night time National Express coach can switch to subdued lighting, for the comfort of passengers at night, yet train passengers are expected to endure blinding extream light as soon as the Sun goes down?

Simple on a coach you are expected to remain seated with your seatbelt fastened, this isn’t the case on a train.

 

[yorksrob]

Elf' and Safety innit?

No doubt because passengers are more likely to walk around on a moving train, the lighting must be suitable and allow for this without causing potential trip hazards if it's too dark (luggage in aisles, walking to buffet, trolley services, walking to toilet etc...)

I expect that on a train, it's neccessary for passengers to be able to evacuate quickly using the emergency windows (which would require passengers seeing where they are) whereas on a coach the driver can simply give instructions there and then (can't rely on announcements only for trains due to passengers with hearing difficulties etc...)

I expect this is the reasoning anyway. Whether it's actually needed is another thing entirely, but now more than ever, we life in a 'zero-risk' society.

Surely people can wander around with a blue light as on the coach ?

The old compartment coaches would have solved this.

 

[bramling]

Why is it that the night time National Express coach can switch to subdued lighting, for the comfort of passengers at night, yet train passengers are expected to endure blinding extream light as soon as the Sun goes down?

It’s a bugbear of mine as I prefer subdued, however there’s a number of reasons:

* It’s a good way to get better scores for ambience, as brighter lighting seemingly alters perceptions on cleanliness

* Improves CCTV output

* Cheap LED retrofits (this is more harshness than brightness).

Having said all this, there seems to be a divide among the population. My building at work has had some ferocious arguments over lighting levels, with there seeming to be a split between those who like dim and subdued, versus those who seem to want the full dentist chair ambience.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Does the higher level of lighting also help to provide clearer images for the onboard CCTV, giving a better contrast?

 

[yorksrob]

It’s a bugbear of mine as I prefer subdued, however there’s a number of reasons:

* It’s a good way to get better scores for ambience, as brighter lighting seemingly alters perceptions on cleanliness

* Improves CCTV output

* Cheap LED retrofits (this is more harshness than brightness).

Having said all this, there seems to be a divide among the population. My building at work has had some ferocious arguments over lighting levels, with there seeming to be a split between those who like dim and subdued, versus those who seem to want the full dentist chair ambience.

Oh how I miss tungsten bulbs.

 

[co-tr-paul]

As stated on the Night Riviera thread ages ago, there are now eu regulations reagardling light levels on trains. No choice in the matter.

 

[Journeyman]

Oh how I miss tungsten bulbs.

Ah, yes, wasn't it wonderful when people were murdered and robbed on trains on a regular basis, because their design lacked any security features at all?

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Oh how I miss tungsten bulbs.

A source of endless amusement on 1970s and 80s football specials...

 

[yorksrob]

Ah, yes, wasn't it wonderful when people were murdered and robbed on trains on a regular basis, because their design lacked any security features at all?

Yes, one couldn't step on a train in the 70/80's without being murdered in cold blood. That's why I'm not here - I'm actually a spectre, so can't hear any of your anti-real train diatribes.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, one couldn't step on a train in the 70/80's without being murdered in cold blood. That's why I'm not here - I'm actually a spectre, so can't hear any of your anti-real train diatribes.

"Real train"?

Oh, come on.

Murder of Deborah Linsley - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Still unsolved since 1988. Happened on an EPB. OK, not a common occurrence, I'll grant you, but the design of the train directly contributed to an opportunistic crime, and whoever did it simply got off the train undetected.

 

[O L Leigh]

They can’t even give us dimming LED signal heads to prevent burned retinas every time the sun goes down.

 

[yorksrob]

"Real train"?

Oh, come on.

Murder of Deborah Linsley - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Still unsolved since 1988. Happened on an EPB. OK, not a common occurrence, I'll grant you, but the design of the train directly contributed to an opportunistic crime, and whoever did it simply got off the train undetected.

And what about all the other thousands of carriages with tungsten lighting ?

The fact that murders on trains were so rare to make national news should suggest that non- extreme lighting isn't a major risk.

 

[Journeyman]

And what about all the other thousands of carriages with tungsten lighting ?

The fact that murders on trains were so rare to make national news should suggest that non- extreme lighting isn't a major risk.

I'm just pointing out that this woman is dead due to an obsolete design of train trundling about long after it should have been replaced, and that's why modern trains have gangways, open saloons, brighter lighting, emergency communication systems and CCTV.

Tungsten lighting is unreliable and uses far more energy than newer systems anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm just pointing out that this woman is dead due to an obsolete design of train trundling about long after it should have been replaced, and that's why modern trains have gangways, open saloons, brighter lighting, emergency communication systems and CCTV.

Tungsten lighting is unreliable and uses far more energy than newer systems anyway.

Er, I've not known tungsten lighting to be more unreliable (surely less of an issue when there are twenty in a carriage)

It uses more energy. How does that decrease safety exactly ?

Whateverone thinks of the Pendolinos, at least their lighting isn't operating theatre style.

 

[Journeyman]

Er, I've not known tungsten lighting to be more unreliable (surely less of an issue when there are twenty in a carriage)

The life of bulbs is massively shorter, so they fail in service far more frequently. I remember some carriages having loads of failed tungsten bulbs in them when I was a kid, and it could create unsafe conditions. The SUB units had a very flawed design to them which resulted in half the lights in a carriage going out when one bulb broke, so potentially that was a serious safety issue - these things ran until 1983.

It uses more energy. How does that decrease safety exactly ?

It doesn't, but it makes trains more expensive to run and affects their environmental credentials. Only marginally, but it's an important consideration now.

Whateverone thinks of the Pendolinos, at least their lighting isn't operating theatre style.

I have to say that's rather well done, actually. That said, I don't get why people hate the lighting in 80x units, it seems fine to me. Worst offenders ever for harsh lighting were FGW's refurbished HSTs. Combine that with the dreadful cramped seating layout in Standard, and they made for a grim experience.

 

[AlexNL]

With modern lighting techniques it's very well possible to create a lighting atmosphere which is pleasant to the traveling public without making the vehicle look like a dentist's room. For example, you can have the colour temperature change subtly throughout the day, with the light being colder in the morning and warmer in the evening - as is the case with the 'night shift' mode on phones. Ambient light sensors can tune the light intensity so that it aligns with the exterior light level.

This is technology which exists today and which is being applied on trains. For example, Deutsche Bahn's ICE 4 units have such systems - and they fully comply with the very latest of regulations.

 

[yorksrob]

The life of bulbs is massively shorter, so they fail in service far more frequently. I remember some carriages having loads of failed tungsten bulbs in them when I was a kid, and it could create unsafe conditions. The SUB units had a very flawed design to them which resulted in half the lights in a carriage going out when one bulb broke, so potentially that was a serious safety issue - these things ran until 1983.

It doesn't, but it makes trains more expensive to run and affects their environmental credentials. Only marginally, but it's an important consideration now.

I have to say that's rather well done, actually. That said, I don't get why people hate the lighting in 80x units, it seems fine to me. Worst offenders ever for harsh lighting were FGW's refurbished HSTs. Combine that with the dreadful cramped seating layout in Standard, and they made for a grim experience.

The Pendolinos show that you can have decent, non-obtrusive lighting standards even without tungsten bulbs.

Why are we stuck with extreme lighting ?

With modern lighting techniques it's very well possible to create a lighting atmosphere which is pleasant to the traveling public without making the vehicle look like a dentist's room. For example, you can have the colour temperature change subtly throughout the day, with the light being colder in the morning and warmer in the evening - as is the case with the 'night shift' mode on phones. Ambient light sensors can tune the light intensity so that it aligns with the exterior light level.

This is technology which exists today and which is being applied on trains. For example, Deutsche Bahn's ICE 4 units have such systems - and they fully comply with the very latest of regulations.

No one ever does though.

 

[Journeyman]

The Pendolinos show that you can have decent, non-obtrusive lighting standards even without tungsten bulbs.

Why are we stuck with extreme lighting ?

It depends what your definition of "extreme" is. Mostly I think it's fine on modern trains, the FGW HSTs standing out as having been (literally) glaring exceptions.

Getting gooey eyed and nostalgic about tungsten lighting doesn't really help, though. Most tungsten-lit carriages were gloomy as hell and could be quite depressing to travel in.

 

[Pokelet]

Lightning on a coach is probably dimmed so that the driver can see out of the windscreen in the dark. Service busses tend to have the first few feet of the vehicle dimmed or off when it's dark.

Train driver's don't have this problem

 

[Journeyman]

Lightning on a coach is probably dimmed so that the driver can see out of the windscreen in the dark. Service busses tend to have the first few feet of the vehicle dimmed or off when it's dark.

Train driver's don't have this problem

Indeed. That's why first generation DMUs had blinds at the back of the cab.

 

[507020]

Yes, one couldn't step on a train in the 70/80's without being murdered in cold blood. That's why I'm not here - I'm actually a spectre, so can't hear any of your anti-real train diatribes.

I wouldn’t have worried about stepping on a train. You couldn’t even set foot in the street in broad daylight in the Thatcher’s Britain without being murdered in cold blood, it was that bad back then.

I'm just pointing out that this woman is dead due to an obsolete design of train trundling about long after it should have been replaced, and that's why modern trains have gangways, open saloons, brighter lighting, emergency communication systems and CCTV.

Tungsten lighting is unreliable and uses far more energy than newer systems anyway.

A serious point though is, what do you do if “modern trains” when coupled together don’t have gangways? The lighting situation makes me think of the Manchester Metrolink, which seems to have an outside light detector, but all it does is turns the lights on when a tram enters a tunnel and turns them off when it goes back outside. In reality though, the lights come on when the tram is in the shadow of a building. Also passengers travelling in the rear portion of a double Metrolink tram are actually alone, unless there are revenue staff on board.

I’m all in favour of having guards on trains, but how much training do they receive in defending against knife wielding murderers?

 

[Jozhua]

Don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence - I think that most train designers just haven't given it much thought, along with many other interior aspects!

This likely renders arguments about murders/violence mute points. In terms of safety, planes dim the lights at night so in case of an evacuation, passengers are not so disoriented when they leave the aircraft. This is in the landing phase when people are seated however.

I think if you investigated it, you would find that having adaptive lighting, with different color temperatures/brightness would be the best in terms of safety and passenger comfort. I think the harsh light exists simply because they want the interiors to appear bright during the day and have not given much thought to the night. - it might be nice for passengers if dimmer lighting allowed them to be better able to see out of windows.

Certainly aircraft manufacturers have spent lots of R&D looking at increasing the perception of space and quality, even if passengers are still rammed like sardines. So perhaps the rail sector could borrow some lessons from that!

 

[Mat17]

I guess I'm the only one who likes the brighter lighting then? When the dimmer settings come on, I go sleepy... Probably miss my stop.

 

[The exile]

Is the question here about the lighting on “night trains” specifically (ie the sleepers) or about any train that happens to be running after sundown?

 

[bramling]

Is the question here about the lighting on “night trains” specifically (ie the sleepers) or about any train that happens to be running after sundown?

Personally I find most train lighting too bright, so for me it’s pretty much any time.

 

[Mikey C]

Coaches (like aircraft) have individual reading lights as well

Maybe in first class carriages with reading lights, the main lighting could be dimmed a bit at night, so that it's bright enough for safety, but not so glaring for those who want to doze or watch TV on their devices

 

[Royston Vasey]

In terms of safety, planes dim the lights at night so in case of an evacuation, passengers are not so disoriented when they leave the aircraft. This is in the landing phase when people are seated however.

They also turn them off completely for vast swathes of long haul flights, when people are very much able to stand and circulate.

 

[nw1]

Oh how I miss tungsten bulbs.

Am old enough to remember these on CIGs, VEPs and HAPs in the 1980s. They went to fluorescent around 1988 on the South Western division, IIRC - as part of the refurbishment in which the CIGs became 18xx and the VEPs 34xx/35xx.

Indeed. That's why first generation DMUs had blinds at the back of the cab.

Was always better when these were not up though. Can recall a couple of occasions in the front of a 1st-gen DMU and being able to see the line ahead.

Back to the main topic of the thread, I also like the lighting ambience of Pendolinos. The seating can be a little cramped if the train is full, but the lighting is nice.