Moorgate/Kings Cross/Thameslink Core Provision

[GordonT]

How optimal is the level of service for suburban passengers in relation to the level of respective demand for travel to/from the Moorgate branch, Kings Cross and the Thameslink Core route?

 

[30907]

How optimal is the level of service for suburban passengers in relation to the level of respective demand for travel to/from the Moorgate branch, Kings Cross and the Thameslink Core route?

Could you specify what you mean by suburban passengers? I'm guessing somewhere served from all 3 of the routes mentioned? And is Kings Cross specifically the terminus or does it include St Pancras TL?

 

[GordonT]

Could you specify what you mean by suburban passengers? I'm guessing somewhere served from all 3 of the routes mentioned? And is Kings Cross specifically the terminus or does it include St Pancras TL?

Within Greater London might be a better description than suburban. Kings Cross specifically the terminus.

 

[Hadders]

Generally speaking the inner-suburban services from Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage via Hetford go to Moorgate, not Kings Cross
There are two trains an hour (from Cambridge) that call at Alexander Palace and go to Kings Cross.

 

[LBMPSB]

Within Greater London might be a better description than suburban. Kings Cross specifically the terminus.

Kings Cross is less a suburban station and more a Main Line/Inter city station. I would imagine at some point Kings Cross will be solely main line traffic with all suburban traffic going to Moorgate and St Pancras (Thameslink). The present the level of suburban and main line service is surpressed by the signalling system that is essentially the same as it was when installed in the 1970s. Network Rail are presently installing ECTS Level 2, in cab signalling on the route out of Kings Cross. Whilst still fixed block sections, there will be many more than the present signal sections which will allow the increase of train paths. But as to whether the extra paths will be used for suburban trains or main line trains we will have to wait to see.

 

[Magdalia]

The inner suburban Welwyn/Hertford service has been predominantly to Moorgate since electrification in 1976. In those days the service reverted to Kings Cross late on weekday evenings and at weekends because the City of London was economically dead at those times. But subsequent relaxation of shop and pub opening restrictions means that hasn't applied for a while.

Inner suburban services are unlikely to be using Kings Cross in the future because of platform capacity constraints.

 

[30907]

I am still struggling to see what the OP is actually aiming at?

A small point: part of the GN suburban package was the cross-platform interchange at Highbury with the Victoria Line.

 

[GordonT]

I am still struggling to see what the OP is actually aiming at?

I am curious to know how closely the distribution of trains between the three options aligns supply with demand.

 

[30907]

I am curious to know how closely the distribution of trains between the three options aligns supply with demand

Moorgate probably has a little spare capacity currently but is limited to 6-car trains. As Magdalia has said, there is no significant capacity at KGX and little at STP.

So the service is constrained by the infrastructure, with little prospect of major changes. Looking at the service in more detail:

For all practical purposes we can treat KGX and STP as one:
3 stations are served from both (the classic outer suburban ones, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn GC).
Alexandra Palace is served all day from KGX (which was not the case at electrification nearly 50 years ago).
New Southgate/Oakleigh Pk/New Barnet have a peak hour Thameslink service, which replaced a more limited one from KGX which had operated since electrification.
The remaining stations, including all those on the Hertford Loop, are only served from Moorgate.

So the question is - is there a change that would be a  better match with demand?
For example, we could in theory run the Thameslink services to Hertford (with consequent alterations to Moorgate services). But would it be worth it?

 

[Magdalia]

Moorgate probably has a little spare capacity currently but is limited to 6-car trains.

The remaining stations, including all those on the Hertford Loop, are only served from Moorgate.

As a result many platforms on the Hertford Loop are limited to 6 car trains too. There has never been any need to make them any longer.

we could in theory run the Thameslink services to Hertford

So actually, that's not possible because all Thameslink trains are at least 8 cars.

 

[30907]

As a result many platforms on the Hertford Loop are limited to 6 car trains too. There has never been any need to make them any longer.

Though on a quick satellite inspection all of them (including Bowes Park) could be lengthened if there was the demand. Maybe just as far as Gordon Hill?

So actually, that's not possible because all Thameslink trains are at least 8 cars.

I assume they don't have ASDO? Please note, this is not a proposal - merely an indication of what limited changes might be feasible.

Going back to my previous post: the other important point is that demand isn't simply to the OP's 3 stations but to Central London generally (and beyond, but that won't be huge) using various onward modes, which can be accessed reasonably well from any of them (counting Highbury with Moorgate).

 

[Magdalia]

Maybe just as far as Gordon Hill?

I have long thought that this should have happened as part of the project that originally brought Thameslink to the GN. Gordon Hill could have been rebuilt with the through tracks on the outside and reversing platforms in the middle, all lengthened to 8 cars.

But I think it is too late for that now.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the morning peak, from Welwyn Garden City, it is hard to tell how passenger distribute themselves.

The Thamelink service does get a reasonable amount of people that wait for it. (It is normally right behind a Moorgate service so it is easy to spot passengers that want thamelink) I Lot of people changing onto the tube at the various Thameslink stations on route.

The ones that are going to Moorgate do have a reasonable load leaving at Highbury and Islington, but not sure if they are leaving, heading for the Victoria or London overground.

It would be interesting if the 4th train ever returned, if passengers would prefer the destination to be Thameslink ( Running the Sevenoaks servce all day) or 4tphi into Moorgate as planned.

 

[GordonT]

It's interesting that if there is a temporary unplanned closure of the Moorgate branch due for example to a signalling or track issue there is an attempt made to divert some trains into Kings Cross. I wonder if this will still be an option if there are further enhancements to services which utilise Kings Cross. The present service structure has the virtue of a degree of simplicity which might have been lost if services had evolved to encourage a more comprehensive provision of "everywhere to everywhere" through journey options. Similarly the perpetuation of Great Northern as distinct from Thameslink branding has probably been necessary despite some overlapping.

 

[cle]

It would be far neater if all of the slow services (Stevenage and WGC terminators) went into Moorgate. I'm not sure of the max capacity through that line, I recall there being 12tph in peaks - but I would think a steady 4tph (2 to Stevenage) on each branch would be a good service. That could maybe flex to 5tph - Overground and Metrolink style, if needed - and even 6tph even in peaks.

And that gives a nice metro service of 12tph from Ally Pally inbound, from where it could be mentally used more like a tube line. I don't think it needs the Cambridge call (Finsbury Park is still the changeover) - and if problematic, you could probably cut Potters Bar too. Howls, but as with these things - turn up and go is always better in hindsight. Similar with Slough, except Finsbury Park and H&I would still offer good onward options too.

 

[GordonT]

A further point for discussion. Does the level of priority given to late running Thameslink trains over on-time LNER trains seem reasonable? Given the vast scope for Thameslink trains from the likes of Brighton or Horsham to pick up delay minutes by the time they reach Finsbury Park it seems bizarre that, say, an Inverness train is brought to a stand at Holloway whilst the Thameslink train in Pl 7 at FPK has already been given the road for the down fast line but is still setting down/picking up passengers. Given that the Thameslink operation is essentially a less than punctual, semi-fast, outer suburban service should it not incur additional lateness rather than infecting inter-city expresses with its dilatoriness?

 

[leytongabriel]

There were 4 inner-suburban trains per hour initially up each branch after electification I believe. Then 3 and after that 2 all stations and 1 semi-fast to Hertford. Then we went down to 2 WGC and 2 Hertfords. This was the frequency we had in the 60s and 70s with the diesel service! Sad that it's one of the few services that hasn't been improved again after the cuts in the 80s/90s.

Would a Tfl take-over provide the impetus for improving the service?

 

[Hadders]

It would be far neater if all of the slow services (Stevenage and WGC terminators) went into Moorgate.

As far as I know they do, save for the odd service at the start/end of the day for positioning move purposes.

 

[clockend]

There were 4 inner-suburban trains per hour initially up each branch after electification I believe. Then 3 and after that 2 all stations and 1 semi-fast to Hertford. Then we went down to 2 WGC and 2 Hertfords. This was the frequency we had in the 60s and 70s with the diesel service! Sad that it's one of the few services that hasn't been improved again after the cuts in the 80s/90s.

Would a Tfl take-over provide the impetus for improving the service?

There were 4tph off peak on both WGC and Hertford Loop into Moorgate before Covid….certainly from 2018

 

[bramling]

A further point for discussion. Does the level of priority given to late running Thameslink trains over on-time LNER trains seem reasonable? Given the vast scope for Thameslink trains from the likes of Brighton or Horsham to pick up delay minutes by the time they reach Finsbury Park it seems bizarre that, say, an Inverness train is brought to a stand at Holloway whilst the Thameslink train in Pl 7 at FPK has already been given the road for the down fast line but is still setting down/picking up passengers. Given that the Thameslink operation is essentially a less than punctual, semi-fast, outer suburban service should it not incur additional lateness rather than infecting inter-city expresses with its dilatoriness?

Whether it’s ethical is a matter for debate, however operationally I’m not sure there’s much choice due to the risk of Thameslink services tangling themselves up elsewhere, especially as both the 9J and 9S services don’t have particularly long turnaround times at Peterborough, Cambridge and Horsham. As it is, it’s very common for these services to have stops pulled, or be turned short at locations such as Royston, Letchworth, St Neots, Three Bridges, Crawley or Haywards Heath. Anything which further delays them will simply lead to more of this, which probably impacts a greater number of people than a delay to an LNER.

There were 4tph off peak on both WGC and Hertford Loop into Moorgate before Covid….certainly from 2018

From May 18. Before that it was 3tph on each route, with 1tph continuing beyond Hertford North to Letchworth.

It would be far neater if all of the slow services (Stevenage and WGC terminators) went into Moorgate. I'm not sure of the max capacity through that line, I recall there being 12tph in peaks - but I would think a steady 4tph (2 to Stevenage) on each branch would be a good service. That could maybe flex to 5tph - Overground and Metrolink style, if needed - and even 6tph even in peaks.

And that gives a nice metro service of 12tph from Ally Pally inbound, from where it could be mentally used more like a tube line. I don't think it needs the Cambridge call (Finsbury Park is still the changeover) - and if problematic, you could probably cut Potters Bar too. Howls, but as with these things - turn up and go is always better in hindsight. Similar with Slough, except Finsbury Park and H&I would still offer good onward options too.

Agreed I don’t see the point of the Cambridge service calling at Alexandra Palace. My experience has been limited, however I’ve yet to see anything more than a trickle making use of the call. 4tph seems sufficient, especially bearing in mind Wood Green LU station is just round the corner. Of course, pre-Covid it had 8tph off-peak. It’s an extra kick in the teeth for places like Knebworth, who since Covid have lost their fast peak services to/from London, and now have an extra stop.

On top of that, operationally it’s a thorough nuisance as it essentially prevents the stopping services using the fast lines south of Potters Bar, which has always been a useful facility to prevent delays stacking up when things are out-of-course.

 

[Basil Jet]

I don't understand the recent history of this line. I think they did some track work in the Hornsey area to allow a six track railway north of Finsbury Park, but there don't seem to be services taking advantage of that - did Covid lead to the cancellation of a major service increase after the track work had already been completed? What service level was planned, and will it ever happen now? I know people who have completely abandoned the line and switched to the Piccadilly because the post-Covid service is so poor.

 

[Magdalia]

On top of that, operationally it’s a thorough nuisance as it essentially prevents the stopping services using the fast lines south of Potters Bar, which has always been a useful facility to prevent delays stacking up when things are out-of-course.

In the down direction running on the fast line was never much use because of the approach control for the slow line turnout at Potters Bar, which is tortuous. But the up direction is another matter, especially for trains that can get onto the fast line at Marshmoor. That is less useful now because of the reluctance to stop trains on the fast line at Finsbury Park. In the olden days I travelled on the stoppers quite a lot, and always put the watch on up trains that started on the up fast at Potters Bar; with a run into the fast line platform at Finsbury Park there were some very exhilarating performances, including a few start to stop runs in less than 8 minutes.

I think they did some track work in the Hornsey area to allow a six track railway north of Finsbury Park, but there don't seem to be services taking advantage of that

There has been three tracks between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace in the down direction for a long time, but in the up direction the third track was only upgraded for passenger trains relatively recently. The difficulty is that, apart from the up side at Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park, no new platforms were added. In particular Harringay and Hornsey only have a platform on one line in each direction. This is a significant constraint, unless all Hertford line trains ceased to call at Harringay and Hornsey.

 

[bramling]

In the down direction running on the fast line was never much use because of the approach control for the slow line turnout at Potters Bar, which is tortuous.

That’s been flashing yellows for a few years now.

Nowadays it seems the standard practice is simply to be stuck behind an all-stations 717. Albeit there’s less of them these days to be stuck behind!

There has been three tracks between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace in the down direction for a long time, but in the up direction the third track was only upgraded for passenger trains relatively recently. The difficulty is that, apart from the up side at Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park, no new platforms were added. In particular Harringay and Hornsey only have a platform on one line in each direction. This is a significant constraint, unless all Hertford line trains ceased to call at Harringay and Hornsey.

Ever since the changes were made, I’ve sensed a reluctance by signallers to make use of the US2 line. Whilst it’s been fairly common for King’s Cross services to go via Platform 1 at Finsbury Park, using the US2 all the way from Alexandra Palace has been comparatively rare in my experience. Indeed it seems they would rather cross trains to the UF at Alexandra Palace (which seems far more disruptive to me) than use the US2.

 

[GordonT]

Whether it’s ethical is a matter for debate, however operationally I’m not sure there’s much choice due to the risk of Thameslink services tangling themselves up elsewhere, especially as both the 9J and 9S services don’t have particularly long turnaround times at Peterborough, Cambridge and Horsham. As it is, it’s very common for these services to have stops pulled, or be turned short at locations such as Royston, Letchworth, St Neots, Three Bridges, Crawley or Haywards Heath. Anything which further delays them will simply lead to more of this, which probably impacts a greater number of people than a delay to an LNER.

A 10L northbound 9J which is not an unusual occurrence invariably impedes the prime xx00 or xx30 off the Cross the only redeeming feature being that the normal speed characteristics of the 9J usually mean that once it's got up to speed it maintains a decent distance between itself and the following 1N, 1S or 1W.

 

[30907]

A 10L northbound 9J which is not an unusual occurrence invariably impedes the prime xx00 or xx30 off the Cross the only redeeming feature being that the normal speed characteristics of the 9J usually mean that once it's got up to speed it maintains a decent distance between itself and the following 1N, 1S or 1W.

Indeed, but are the LNER services able to recoup the time later?

 

[GordonT]

Indeed, but are the LNER services able to recoup the time later?

True. It is more an irritating feature whose regularity of occurrence flies in the face of traditional practice. It would actually be better for a long-distance service whose on time departure from Kings Cross is guaranteed to result in being held at a signal prior to Finsbury Park to instead incur a late start of a couple of minutes rather than being brought to a stand so soon after its departure.

 

[Magdalia]

redeeming feature being that the normal speed characteristics of the 9J usually mean that once it's got up to speed it maintains a decent distance between itself and the following 1N, 1S or 1W.

Of course that's what happens. There is no 125mph running until Woolmer Green, by which time the 9J is on the slow line.

It is more an irritating feature whose regularity of occurrence flies in the face of traditional practice.

It hasn't been traditional practice for decades. The suburban trains are the priority out as far as Woolmer Green and have been for a long time. That's what is needed for minimising delay through the two track section over Digswell Viaduct.

 

[evergreenadam]

There were 4 inner-suburban trains per hour initially up each branch after electification I believe. Then 3 and after that 2 all stations and 1 semi-fast to Hertford. Then we went down to 2 WGC and 2 Hertfords. This was the frequency we had in the 60s and 70s with the diesel service! Sad that it's one of the few services that hasn't been improved again after the cuts in the 80s/90s.

Would a Tfl take-over provide the impetus for improving the service?

In the late 1970s the Moorgate electric service was built up to 6tph on at least one branch. I don’t think that has ever been matched subsequently. When the frequencies were reduced there were spare 313s available for transfer to other lines.

The Moorgate line signalling capacity has traditionally been 12tph, the new signalling system may allow for higher frequencies.

 

[30907]

It would actually be better for a long-distance service whose on time departure from Kings Cross is guaranteed to result in being held at a signal prior to Finsbury Park to instead incur a late start of a couple of minutes rather than being brought to a stand so soon after its departure.

That depends on the platforming at KGX - regulating the train up Holloway bank might be an energy efficient option, though it presumably requires signaller intervention?