More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

[Charlie Smythe]

If their poor behaviour is requiring additional police resources then absolutely they should be required to contribute.

Look at it this way. If someone has a nice car and it driving down the high street and some thugs decide that they are going to start smashing this car, does this mean that the car owner pays for the police response just because his car caused the violence?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I think the original question has been skewed too far towards policing. The question asked was:



It goes far beyond policing. When tours inevitably fall over on the mainline and cause huge disruption to passengers and thousands of delay minutes would you still have the same answer to the question? You said they shouldn't have to, is that still the case?

If Tornado, Clan line or any other steam loco breaks down and causes disruption then yes, of course they should pay. However they still should not pay for Police because of enthusiasts.

 

[al78]

Deleted

 

[DarloRich]

I reckon we could take the kettle krew no problem!

Watch it. They go tooled up with pipes and sandwich boxes. plus all that tweed is like body armour.

No they dont cover the full cost. And they shouldn't have to.

I didn't say football clubs do pay all of the cost. They pay SOME of the cost of policing inside the ground. As I said this is not a good example. A better one would be bar or club owners.

Look at it this way. If someone has a nice car and it driving down the high street and some thugs decide that they are going to start smashing this car, does this mean that the car owner pays for the police response just because his car caused the violence?

This is all getting silly. You are doing yourself or your steam train tours no good. Admit the problem and start being part of the solution.

I don't want steam train tours banned. I have been on several myself with my late father and my current gf. We had some lovely days out and nice meals and wine. It was fun.

However they will be stopped if people continue to misbehave.

 

[Llanigraham]

Because the enthusiasts on the line and people standing in front of the white line are not the fault of the Rail tour operators. They are only responsible for paying guests and enthusiasts at a station are, as i have said in a previous post, not paying guests and tour operators are not accountable for their actions.

Would they be there if the kettle wasn't running?
Would they be tring to take photos if the kettle wasn't running?

 

[Master29]

Was this a narrow-gauge line, out of interest? These are generally operated like tramways, partly in that they run on roads in places, and partly because wandering all over the infrastructure is generally seen to be fair game unlike the mainline where it is much less so these days. The low speeds and culture of operating like a tramway mean it isn't much of a risk.

It was the Glacier Express which I believe is narrow gauge and of course often a lot slower than large parts of the UK, At a guess around 80 mph at fastest but that was my guess. I noticed this approach elsewhere but this was first hand experience as I myself got off the train. Most of the mountainous railways are I think. I live in Cornwall where the speeds are comparable however if not the gauge.

 

[LOL The Irony]

However they will be stopped if people continue to misbehave.

And that won't help anyone.

The best way to sort it out is make examples of those who take things too far (literally) and fine them for tresspassing. It'll soon stop after a few £1000 fines have been handed out. Repeat offenders should be given a 6 month banning order.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Watch it. They go tooled up with pipes and sandwich boxes. plus all that tweed is like body armour.



I didn't say football clubs do pay all of the cost. They pay SOME of the cost of policing inside the ground. As I said this is not a good example. A better one would be bar or club owners.



This is all getting silly. You are doing yourself or your steam train tours no good. Admit the problem and start being part of the solution.

I don't want steam train tours banned. I have been on several myself with my late father and my current gf. We had some lovely days out and nice meals and wine. It was fun.

However they will be stopped if people continue to misbehave.

The dare devil enthusiasts are a problem, i am not denying that. However it will be very difficult to stop them unless you remove the rail tours from the mainline which we obviously shouldn't do.

 

[bobbyrail]

Doesn't matter how many police are needed whether it be 5 BTP officers on a station of 300 across a city. Rail tour operators should NOT have to contribute. Football fans are paying guests to the club and thy are directly involved. Enthusiasts at a station are nothing to do with rail tour operators they are just there and are completely separate from the tour.

What's this situation got to do with TOC's or other operators, Network Rail run the infrastructure not them. The rules of the railways are the rules / By-Laws infringing on them has nothing to do with the operator unless that operator is causing/ allowing or encouraging the practice,what the company of the passing train has paid for track access is irrelevant. If you come come round my house then you will be my guest and will respect my wishes / rules, if you start peeing on the couch then you will be out because............ it's my house and you are a guest. Just like Horwich parkway is NR's house so we all play by their rules.

 

[trebor79]

I don't see why railtours would be banned due to the behaviour of a few members of the public.
Perhaps the Intercity liveried class 91 should also be banned, in case some enthusiasts get over-enthusiastic taking photos?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

What's this situation got to do with TOC's or other operators, Network Rail run the infrastructure not them. The rules of the railways are the rules / By-Laws infringing on them has nothing to do with the operator unless that operator is causing/ allowing or encouraging the practice,what the company of the passing train has paid for track access is irrelevant. If you come come round my house then you will be my guest and will respect my wishes / rules, if you start peeing on the couch then you will be out because............ it's my house and you are a guest. Just like Horwich parkway is NR's house so we all play by their rules.

You are right. If i come to your house and start peeing on the couch that is my fault and i am responsible. But in that situation i am directly involved with you and your couch. Horwich Parkway is NR's house you are right. It is the Job of Network rail to deal with and punish the dare devil enthusiasts, they should not punish the Tour Operator for the dare devil enthusiasts. It your job to enforce you own rules in your own house and you should punish the individual breaking them, not everyone else.

 

[Meerkat]

If your lodger had friends who popped round and peed on your couch it wouldn’t directly be the lodger’s fault.....but you would still be looking to get rid of the lodger wouldn’t you?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

If your lodger had friends who popped round and peed on your couch it wouldn’t directly be the lodger’s fault.....but you would still be looking to get rid of the lodger wouldn’t you?

No, the friend/s can get out as the lodger wasn't at fault. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and can you cant sponge it off onto someone else.

 

[The_Train]

It is the Job of Network rail to deal with and punish the dare devil enthusiasts, they should not punish the Tour Operator for the dare devil enthusiasts. It your job to enforce you own rules in your own house and you should punish the individual breaking them, not everyone else.

Taking this back to your football analogy, if a few fans of a certain club cause trouble has it not been known that said club receives a fine and be forced to play behind closed doors thus losing not only their support for the match but also ticket income? None of this was the fault of the football club in question, it was a few people they'd allowed onto their property breaking the rules, yet the organisation suffers.

 

[PR1Berske]

So will service trains be axed too when people trespass to get a shot of those?

Service trains are integral to the network; steam/heritage are not.

 

[Dougal2345]

Service trains are integral to the network; steam/heritage are not.

Surely there's an assumption there as to what the rail network is actually "for"?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Service trains are integral to the network; steam/heritage are not.

Both service and heritage trains are both paying customers to Network Rail. Just because the service trains run all day everyday and carry more people doesn't make them except from these issues.

 

[DarloRich]

Both service and heritage trains are both paying customers to Network Rail. Just because the service trains run all day everyday and carry more people doesn't make them except from these issues.

You clearly have no idea about the regulatory and financial framework underpinning these operations. Please try some research.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't see why railtours would be banned due to the behaviour of a few members of the public.
Perhaps the Intercity liveried class 91 should also be banned, in case some enthusiasts get over-enthusiastic taking photos?

Is there a grip to be got do we think?

 

[Robin Edwards]

This is a thread that could be mirrored in a thread on a forum covering any number of subjects and interests and might be summarised, ‘how do we legislate against the minority of ****wits out there that want to spoil things for the majority?’

I do agree with sentiments shared by @DarloRich and others but would add that I think that any TOC hiring a specific locomotive such as FS could likely suffer the same negative results rather than because of the TOC themselves? FS seems to carry it’s own plethora of line-siders who we may be loosely calling ‘enthusiasts’ whilst I probably wouldn’t associate that term with them at all and tarring with same brush. Most (but never all) enthusiasts from my experience know what not to do and the protocols they need to follow on the railway. It’s maybe also the occasional family who take themselves and their young children out because they have heard that FS is passing and maybe whilst photographing on their smart phones, simply don’t know how to behave. Maybe you disagree and think I’m being overly generous to the genuine enthusiasts? Some are clearly needing to be named-and-shamed and where necessary prosecuted – no ifs or buts in my opinion.

I also note that one or two posters here are clearly not interested in ‘kettles’ which is fine however to suggest they don’t belong on the rail network is wrong I believe. The railway serves many markets, freight and passenger to hopefully make money. If the steam excursion market didn’t make money for operators then surely market forces would see them disappear and I would say that these trains are not run just for the pleasure of the rail enthusiasts out here. If they generate revenue then what’s the problem? Added costs from insurance due to risk of injury or worse to the public may be that market force that sees steam off the mainline?

Lastly, the football analogy in many ways also backs up my first paragraph. A paying fan of a particular club can shout abuse and throw bottles at players and this rightly results I would hope in criminal charges and banning orders from said club. How does the club prevent the action of the minority in the first place though? Do we ban everyone in case an idiot turns up? Do we ban football itself? No of course not, we weed out as many said idiots by calling them out and forcing them somewhere else – or so I’d hope so.

 

[DarloRich]

The above post is sensible but I think it should be pointed out that while charters must make money for the operators they do not face the same financial penalties as franchised operators when things go wrong. It was suggested above this had changed. I am not sure it has.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The above post is sensible but I think it should be pointed out that while charters must make money for the operators they do not face the same financial penalties as franchised operators when things go wrong. It was suggested above this had changed. I am not sure it has.

This may (i am not sure this is just a guess) be because the franchised operators are franchised to run this many train this many times a day and they run on a set schedule whereas Charters aren't franchised and are one off events. I genuinely don't know this is just a wild guess.

 

[221129]

This may (i am not sure this is just a guess) be because the franchised operators are franchised to run this many train this many times a day and they run on a set schedule whereas Charters aren't franchised and are one off events. I genuinely don't know this is just a wild guess.

A wild guess that is completely wrong.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

A wild guess that is completely wrong.

Fair enough. Like i said, wild guess. Do you know the actual reason?

 

[Clip]

I don't see why railtours would be banned due to the behaviour of a few members of the public.
Perhaps the Intercity liveried class 91 should also be banned, in case some enthusiasts get over-enthusiastic taking photos?

Wait? What? That is such a poor comparison that i am struggling to understand why someone would try and make one?

 

[trainmania100]

Flying Scotsman has been around quite a bit revently, don't get why it warrants people to risk their lives when there is still a magnitude of opportunities to see it

 

[zn1]

if you trespass, accept the consequences, GRICERS who trespass over in to private property boundarys on ANY railway network should expect arrest and possible prosecution.

the track boundary and land is clearly marked by fencing.

there is no reason to go trackside to get pictures...ask any p-way or signalling staff where the safest place to be is...its normally WELL AWAY from the trackbed, including the CESS

all im gonna say this is the flying scotsman aka the cursed LOCO ..its nothing special....there are far better Kettles to take pictures of when they are hired in to run specials on the Mains

 

[Deepgreen]

Service trains are integral to the network; steam/heritage are not.

This is wrong - 'open access' means just that. A rail-tour carrying hundreds of passengers paying, say, between £50 and £200 each is a valuable asset, and the current system of rail network access is set up to allow all permitted operators to run trains. Apart from the financial value involved, there is the unquantifiable benefit of the industry's heritage recognition and retention.

To put the entire issue into perspective, to my knowledge no-one has (yet) been killed owing to over-enthusiastic and ill-informed transgressions at stations, although a few service train drivers may have had a bit of a fleeting scare on a few occasions when they have been faced with someone close to the platform edge. Others have been injured by trains when they have been fully observing the rules (one I am aware of personally is a man on a platform at Bradford-on-Avon whose arm was broken a few years ago by a lump of coal which bounced off the tender of a passing steam working). The risk of non-enthusiasts putting themselves in danger with steam (i.e. FS) is relatively tiny compared with some other railway safety issues - e.g. those who sit over platform edges, cross the lines, walk down the ten foot, etc. There are probably only two locos which are specifically known by the general public and which therefore could be expected to bring out the layman - 'Flying Scotsman' and 'Mallard', and the latter is not functional.

Surely the railway enthusiast 'community' can police itself and others well enough to prevent many ill-informed actions on site? I certainly advise those whom I see breaking the rules, but then I rarely go to popular spots to photograph trains and so will generally encounter far fewer incidents.

As an afterthought, I remember the seemingly huge hurdle that was overcome when BR agreed to run daylight steam again over third rail routes back in the 1990s - something that had been strongly resisted since 1968 for fear of enthusiasts trampling all over the juice rails in their attempts to secure photographs. So far, so good.

 

[yorkie]

So you are saying they pay 300 police for what is basically a full days work as they are there form early morning to late afternoon? They pay for the helicopter? Horses? tens on vans and cars? No they don't. They may pay for 10 to 20 to stand in the grandstand however the other 280 strategically placed at all the train stations, pubs and large shops in the city are not paid for by the football teams.

I think some of these comparisons/analogies are too off topic, distant and not comparable, and not particularly well researched.

While I agree there are limits to which operators can be held liable or accountable for the actions of members of the public, there is a risk that if poor behaviour gets too far out of control then something could be done about it. The threshold where that could or should happen is probably highly subjective and debatable but I don't think it could be dismissed as an impossibility.

Charlie I do think you have fundamentally underestimated the risks though, as demonstrated by this from earlier this month:
https://twitter.com/CharlieSmythe2/status/1070350061622702080

The tracks vibrate and make sounds minutes before the trains comes, its impossible to accidentally get hit by a train

That is absolutely categorically not true.

There are even videos of 'near misses' where people had no idea a train was approaching, and the fact they were not injured was down to pure luck. Not only that, but you have also failed to take into account wind turbulence caused by passing trains, the effects of which can be very severe for freight trains in particular.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The above post is sensible but I think it should be pointed out that while charters must make money for the operators they do not face the same financial penalties as franchised operators when things go wrong. It was suggested above this had changed. I am not sure it has.

Some people may be interested in the model Charter Track access Agreement on the ORR website at http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/2935/model-charter-contract.pdf . This runs to 106 pages including a large wodge on the Performance Regime from Page 73 of the pdf. It is hard to simplify to a few paragraphs and there are various issues about applying inflation indices and the scope to 'buy' lower caps on possible liability but a potential annual exposure of £547,000 (page 96) ought to help concentrate minds.

This is not to say that the Charter Operator is necessarily liable for crowd problems.

These arrangements may be subject to change for Control Period 6, from April 2019. I have not checked the latest Periodic Review conclusions.