More Delay for HS2, and how should we proceed?

[The Planner]

If the trains are ATO on long, boring (tunnels and sound barriers) trips will the drivers be given more responsibilities, akin to a train manager, to keep them busy (as much for their state of mind as efficiency)?

Doubt it, they will sit up front and that will be it.

 

[najaB]

Doubt it, they will sit up front and that will be it.

"Ding-dong: <automated voice> Could the driver please return to the cab urgently...."

 

[Meerkat]

Doubt it, they will sit up front and that will be it.

That sounds like a mental health hazard - I don't see how they would maintain any useful concentration, or even stay awake!
At least pilots have to talk to the controllers and usually have someone sitting next to them to talk to.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Don't the current Class 373's and e320 run with a kind of "autopilot" albeit supervised by a T-Op (akin to aircraft and some LUL lines, and lets not forget the DLR?)

I'll have to check, but from memory some in cab vids I've got (some in French, which is not my first or even second language) show the driver dialling in the speed he wants to travel at and the machines then sorts it for him.

My point being, if it's not already obvious, self driving trains is hardly radical new technology - it's been done for decades.

 

[najaB]

My point being, if it's not already obvious, self driving trains is hardly radical new technology - it's been done for decades.

Monitored automation and self-driving aren't the same thing. The former is (relatively) easy to achieve, the latter is significantly more so. This particular debate has been done to death though, so suffice it to say that it's unlikely to be implemented on HS2, at least not at service start.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Monitored automation and self-driving aren't the same thing. The former is (relatively) easy to achieve, the latter is significantly more so. This particular debate has been done to death though, so suffice it to say that it's unlikely to be implemented on HS2, at least not at service start.

Thanks, I agree; I don't think there will be driverless HS2 services in what remains of my lifetime, not least since a great many of those services will run onto "conventional" lines (even if/when they get signalling upgrades.) I can imagine there might be a "passenger confidence" issue as much as anything else.

 

[The Planner]

That sounds like a mental health hazard - I don't see how they would maintain any useful concentration, or even stay awake!
At least pilots have to talk to the controllers and usually have someone sitting next to them to talk to.

I would be worried if they cannot stay awake for 50 minutes between London and Birmingham, even the 75 minutes to Manchester. Once they hit the classic network they will be back driving again.

 

[zwk500]

That sounds like a mental health hazard - I don't see how they would maintain any useful concentration, or even stay awake!
At least pilots have to talk to the controllers and usually have someone sitting next to them to talk to.

The Idea of the Driver being in middle of serving 1st Class's coffees and teas when they hit the transition to the classic network and need to dash up to the cab before the emergency brake kicks in is entertaining, if not a desirable situation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only some 30% of services will be captive on HS2 to start with, rising to maybe 60% if/when it reaches Manchester. The rest will run onto the WCML with all its current foibles.
In terms of time driving, the WCML will dominate.
Might change if the WCML gets ETCS north of Crewe.

I'm reminded Eurostar divvied up revenue and costs based on time spent on various sections rather than distance.
So the UK got a higher share of the pot on the slower 3rd rail.
We have yet to find out how HS2 services will be charged on the two types of railway.

 

[zwk500]

Only some 30% of services will be captive on HS2 to start with, rising to maybe 60% if/when it reaches Manchester. The rest will run onto the WCML with all its current foibles.
In terms of time driving, the WCML will dominate.
Might change if the WCML gets ETCS north of Crewe.

Issues with things like grandfathered platforms and other substandard things on an upgraded WCML makes ATO less likely, although not impossible.

I'm reminded Eurostar divvied up revenue and costs based on time spent on various sections rather than distance.
So the UK got a higher share of the pot on the slower 3rd rail.
We have yet to find out how HS2 services will be charged on the two types of railway.

I believe HS1 charges track access per minute, so I'd expect HS2 to do likewise.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

I'm reminded Eurostar divvied up revenue and costs based on time spent on various sections rather than distance.
So the UK got a higher share of the pot on the slower 3rd rail.

You remind me of the Al Murray AKA "The Pub Landlord" explanation - "...it's because all the drivers are British, and they want to spend as little time as possible in France!"

 

[Meerkat]

I would be worried if they cannot stay awake for 50 minutes between London and Birmingham, even the 75 minutes to Manchester. Once they hit the classic network they will be back driving again.

If the train is driving itself, there are no signals to look out for, and you are looking down a tube or effectively a half tube (which will probably get pretty hypnotic) I can't see how a driver who has done it for a few weeks will stay out of a near trance if they stay awake. Don't they swap drivers off the short branchlines during a shift to stop them losing concentration?

The Idea of the Driver being in middle of serving 1st Class's coffees and teas when they hit the transition to the classic network and need to dash up to the cab before the emergency brake kicks in is entertaining, if not a desirable situation.

I was thinking more on the lines of watching the internal CCTV and doing announcements etc. Anything to break up the monotony.

Anyway, we are drifting off topic so better stop unless someone can be bothered to get this moved to a new thread.

 

[najaB]

I was thinking more on the lines of watching the internal CCTV and doing announcements etc. Anything to break up the monotony.

I can't see how announcements (of which there will be precious few in the tunnel sections) would do much to break up the monotony. Much more likely is that they will have to be actively interacting with the controls, rather than a simple dead man's switch.

 

[paul1609]

The main reason that the existing Euston couldn't cope with HS2 departures is that the platforms are not long enough for a 400m train.

Aren't the dedicated HS2 stock supposed to be UIC gauge? If so they'd knock the tops off the existing platforms at Euston

 

[The Planner]

If the train is driving itself, there are no signals to look out for, and you are looking down a tube or effectively a half tube (which will probably get pretty hypnotic) I can't see how a driver who has done it for a few weeks will stay out of a near trance if they stay awake. Don't they swap drivers off the short branchlines during a shift to stop them losing concentration?

How does it work on the Victoria line etc which I thought was pretty similar?

 

[paul1609]

Can you imagine the reaction if the TOCs employed people to push as many passengers as they could into the train!!

We have them at Fratton every Portsmouth home game when there's 3000 people waiting to get on the train in the station car park and the best GWR can do for the first train to Southampton for 45 mins is a 2 car 165. Strictly speaking they may actually be agency staff.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

How does it work on the Victoria line etc which I thought was pretty similar?

At time of writing, on the London Underground, it's not just the Vic that's automated, a few lines are including the Jubilee, Northern and parts of the sub-surface lines (though they are not all complete yet.) However, if there is not one already, the minutia of such is probably worthy of it's own thread rather than protracted debate here.

 

[zwk500]

Aren't the dedicated HS2 stock supposed to be UIC gauge? If so they'd knock the tops off the existing platforms at Euston

AIUI there won't be any captive HS2 stock. HS2 has been built to GB+ (IIRC) but, as you say, the platforms do not comply with the profile (they're at 1,100mm or so for level boarding).

 

[stuu]

How does it work on the Victoria line etc which I thought was pretty similar?

They deal with stations every 2 minutes, so far less monotonous

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Aren't the dedicated HS2 stock supposed to be UIC gauge? If so they'd knock the tops off the existing platforms at Euston

No, all HS2 trains in the first order will be classic-compatible, ie they will be normal-sized trains for the UK so they can run onto NR tracks.
There was/is a possibility of dedicated UIC-gauge trains in a subsequent order (for Birmingham/Manchester services), but the likelihood of that is remote now that the Leeds leg has been ditched.
In fact the supposed 54-train order must itself be under pressure with the reduced scope of the HS2 route network.

 

[eldomtom2]

They'll normally use ATO I'm sure for consistent performance, but having a fully qualified driver onboard is still an excellent investment to monitor operations and equipment on such a huge complex machine and be able to drive manually if necessary, making sure operations can continue with minimal delays.

How common is manual driving due to ATO error on the Underground?

 

[JamesT]

No, all HS2 trains in the first order will be classic-compatible, ie they will be normal-sized trains for the UK so they can run onto NR tracks.
There was/is a possibility of dedicated UIC-gauge trains in a subsequent order (for Birmingham/Manchester services), but the likelihood of that is remote now that the Leeds leg has been ditched.
In fact the supposed 54-train order must itself be under pressure with the reduced scope of the HS2 route network.

Although the Eastern leg has been ditched, aren't there still plans to send HS2 services to Sheffield/Leeds etc, they'll just be joining the classic network far earlier than if the leg was built? Which if anything would put more demand on the classic compatible fleet as they'd be spending longer running on slow tracks? Which makes an order of captive trains more likely rather than less.

 

[Roast Veg]

How does it work on the Victoria line etc which I thought was pretty similar?

It is, and it's pretty monotonous.

They deal with stations every 2 minutes, so far less monotonous

Check cameras, door close, release train. Even every 2 minutes that's not much fun.

How common is manual driving due to ATO error on the Underground?

On the Vic it's only on and off the depot. It's a nightmare for driver training as you can't actually do anything useful in service.

 

[eldomtom2]

On the Vic it's only on and off the depot. It's a nightmare for driver training as you can't actually do anything useful in service.

So if something goes wrong with the ATO everything shuts down until it's fixed?

 

[Roast Veg]

So if something goes wrong with the ATO everything shuts down until it's fixed?

Yes. If the ATO goes down there are no signals to fall back on, so you can only drive on line of sight.

 

[HSTEd]

Given how tightly coupled ATO will be to the signalling system (which will be pure ETCS), I'm not sure how practical significant manual driving would actually be.......

 

[zwk500]

Given how tightly coupled ATO will be to the signalling system (which will be pure ETCS), I'm not sure how practical significant manual driving would actually be.......

I imagine it would only be for emergency use to move the train to a safe location (platform or trackside access) for evacuation.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Aren't the dedicated HS2 stock supposed to be UIC gauge? If so they'd knock the tops off the existing platforms at Euston

All of the initial HS2 trains will be built to the existing UK loading gauge. They will all be classic-compatible.

 

[Jack Hay]

Changing tack here, did anyone else see the long interview with Andy Burnham in Saturday's Times? We're all saying he is strongly pro HS2 and that is one of the reasons that HS2 will definitely be built to Manchester. Actually, he was ambivalent about it. He said he was much more focused on east-west rail links and not that bothered about HS2. Perhaps he may prefer to have a better configured NPR with a through station in Manchester, than have NPR constrained to use HS2 infrastructure such as the terminal station, and is happy to give up HS2 to get it. It's a long interview, not all about transport, and well worth reading if you can get hold of it.

 

[Tezza1978]

Changing tack here, did anyone else see the long interview with Andy Burnham in Saturday's Times? We're all saying he is strongly pro HS2 and that is one of the reasons that HS2 will definitely be built to Manchester. Actually, he was ambivalent about it. He said he was much more focused on east-west rail links and not that bothered about HS2. Perhaps he may prefer to have a better configured NPR with a through station in Manchester, than have NPR constrained to use HS2 infrastructure such as the terminal station, and is happy to give up HS2 to get it. It's a long interview, not all about transport, and well worth reading if you can get hold of it.

Haven't seen this yet but his first priority has always been HS3 - East to West. His beef re HS2 is that he doesn't want a surface through station for HS2 - he is unhappy about the large loss of land near Piccadilly Station. He wants a more complex station, fully underground which will clearly cost a lot more money and take years longer to build. I suspect that when push comes to shove he will be happy to have the surface station instead of no station at all, unless he can persuade the next government to build the underground option.

From memory he is also pro HS2 as it will help create economic growth and passenger growth at Manchester Airport and the area of Greater Manchester around it so there is a strong "local" angle for him too. Linking NPR and HS2 clearly has wider benefits also.