More stops at Watford Junction

[MidnightFlyer]

And when Watford Junction is connected already by train and tram to central London, any inter-city service additionally stopping there would be far too generous.

Nearest trams to Watford are in Croydon!

 

[radamfi]

I would expect fast WCML services to stop regularly at WFJ and MKC once HS2 is operational.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

fast ... WCML services

I highly doubt they will exist after HS2!

 

[radamfi]

I highly doubt they will exist after HS2!

What do you think will happen to the fast lines on the WCML after HS2 then? Clearly some of the capacity would go to improved services to Northampton, but there will surely be room for longer distance services calling at MKC and WFJ. Improved services on the southern part of the WCML is one of the main arguments put forward in favour of HS2.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What do you think will happen to the fast lines on the WCML after HS2 then? Clearly some of the capacity would go to improved services to Northampton, but there will surely be room for longer distance services calling at MKC and WFJ. Improved services on the southern part of the WCML is one of the main arguments put forward in favour of HS2.

I meant 'fast services'. If any trains to Manchester, the Black Country, Liverpool or Preston (not Glasgow trains though) have less than two stops a standard south of Rugby or Crewe I would be amazed. I seemed to recall the Liverpool train as now will be replaced by an extension to the Euston-Wolves service! So yes, WFJ and MKC (and probably RUG, NUN et al) will see better services, but those travelling end-to-end to the North will see much worse journey times!

 

[radamfi]

I meant 'fast services'. If any trains to Manchester, the Black Country, Liverpool or Preston (not Glasgow trains though) have less than two stops a standard south of Rugby or Crewe I would be amazed. I seemed to recall the Liverpool train as now will be replaced by an extension to the Euston-Wolves service! So yes, WFJ and MKC (and probably RUG, NUN et al) will see better services, but those travelling end-to-end to the North will see much worse journey times!

There is a Swiss-style diagram of a potential WCML and HS2 timetable on page 10 of:

http://www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Capturing-the-benefits-of-HS2.pdf

It shows an hourly train departing at these minutes past each hour

37 Manchester Piccadilly
46 Stockport
59 Macclesfield
16 Stoke-on-Trent
12 Milton Keynes Central
32 Watford Junction
47 (arrival) London Euston

2 hours 10 minutes including stops at MKC and WFJ.

The diagram also shows a half-hourly service Birmingham - Euston via MKC and WFJ (1 hour 24 minutes) and similar hourly services to Liverpool and Preston.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There is a Swiss-style diagram of a potential WCML and HS2 timetable on page 10 of:

http://www.greengauge21.net/wp-content/uploads/Capturing-the-benefits-of-HS2.pdf

It shows an hourly train departing at these minutes past each hour

37 Manchester Piccadilly
46 Stockport
59 Macclesfield
16 Stoke-on-Trent
12 Milton Keynes Central
32 Watford Junction
47 (arrival) London Euston

2 hours 10 minutes including stops at MKC and WFJ.

The diagram also shows a half-hourly service Birmingham - Euston via MKC and WFJ (1 hour 24 minutes) and similar hourly services to Liverpool and Preston.

... But a 66% service reduction on average for Manchester on the classic route?

 

[radamfi]

... But a 66% service reduction on average for Manchester on the classic route?

Today:

MAN - EUS 3 tph
MAN - MKC 1 tph
MAN - WFJ requires connection at MKC
Macclesfield - EUS 1 tph
Macclesfield - MKC requires connection at Stoke
Macclesfield - WFJ requires connections at Stoke and MKC
Stoke - EUS 2 tph
Stoke - MKC 1 tph
Stoke - WFJ requires connection at Stoke

Post HS2:

MAN - EUS 4 tph
MAN - MKC 1 tph
MAN - WFJ 1 tph
Macclesfield - EUS 1 tph
Macclesfield - MKC 1 tph
Macclesfield - WFJ 1 tph
Stoke - EUS 1 tph
Stoke - MKC 1 tph
Stoke - WFJ 1 tph

So there isn't much to complain about. The only reduction is in the service from Stoke to EUS which drops from 2 tph to 1 tph.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Today:

MAN - EUS 3 tph
MAN - MKC 1 tph
MAN - WFJ requires connection at MKC
Macclesfield - EUS 1 tph
Macclesfield - MKC requires connection at Stoke
Macclesfield - WFJ requires connections at Stoke and MKC
Stoke - EUS 2 tph
Stoke - MKC 1 tph
Stoke - WFJ requires connection at Stoke

Post HS2:

MAN - EUS 4 tph
MAN - MKC 1 tph
MAN - WFJ 1 tph
Macclesfield - EUS 1 tph
Macclesfield - MKC 1 tph
Macclesfield - WFJ 1 tph
Stoke - EUS 1 tph
Stoke - MKC 1 tph
Stoke - WFJ 1 tph

So there isn't much to complain about. The only reduction is in the service from Stoke to EUS which drops from 2 tph to 1 tph.

But two of those MAN-EUS post-HS2 services run via the West Midlands.

 

[radamfi]

But two of those MAN-EUS post-HS2 services run via the West Midlands.

The document I pointed to earlier shows it to be 3 tph via HS2 and 1 tph via Stoke.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The document I pointed to earlier shows it to be 3 tph via HS2 and 1 tph via Stoke.

So it does lose 66% of trains via the classic route then?

 

[radamfi]

So it does lose 66% of trains via the classic route then?

Does it matter? As I showed in my post comparing pre and post-HS2, almost all passengers on the classic route will have a better service than now with the sole exception of Stoke - Euston passengers. There is no point running a non-stop service down the WCML when it could use HS2!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It does for those who can't afford to shell out for HS2!

 

[radamfi]

It does for those who can't afford to shell out for HS2!

That's a reasonable point, although bargain hunters will still be able to get an hourly service that is almost as quick as now and faster than the hourly service that existed during Mk3 days. HS2 will have to be reasonably affordable if they want to fill 3 tph when there is a cheaper, fairly quick, alternative.

 

[Nym]

Not to mention HS2 should have lower running costs when complete to Manchester and Leeds, thanks to needing less operational staff per seat, big big 400m long units hold more than 268m long pendos.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why can't more Virgin services to and from the north stop at Watford Junction like they used to.

There's similar debates about Slough and St Albans on their main lines, although Stevenage seems to work on EC (though there is no equivalent to MKC there).
Stopping uses up too much capacity.

There were big plans to rebuild Watford Jn under WCRM, including more platform faces to allow overtaking (like they built at MKC), but it was jettisoned along with the resignalling when the cost went through the roof.

Maybe something better will turn up when they finally do the resignalling in a couple of years, but I suspect it will be like-for-like.

 

[The Planner]

Only minor tweaks and a re-control, nothing exciting at all.

 

[PR1Berske]

Nearest trams to Watford are in Croydon!

I meant Underground :blush:

 

[craigwilson]

I meant Underground :blush:

and Overground

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Wombling free?