Morecambe line

[30907]

Occasionally when the line beyond Shipley into Leeds is closed the train start and terminate at Bradford Forster Square.

I think the last regular through trains from Bradford beyond Skipton were in the 1990s

IIRC the 08xx from Leeds on Summer Saturdays (or Sundays?) ran via Forster Square. Can't remember if there was a return trip.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I wonder if anyone knows how the passenger numbers have been affected since the new Lancaster to Morecambe bypass opened? Presumably they have dropped as the bypass makes it much easier to get to Lancaster.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I wonder if anyone knows how the passenger numbers have been affected since the new Lancaster to Morecambe bypass opened? Presumably they have dropped as the bypass makes it much easier to get to Lancaster.

Has the by-pass made it easier to get to Lancaster? Driving on the by-pass itself will presumably get you to the M6 very quickly, but that won't help much in getting to Lancaster. It could make Lancaster-Morecambe journeys quicker in the short term though if it's removed some traffic from the main Lancaster-Morecambe road. I haven't been to Lancaster recently though so not sure if that has happened.

I'd also be curious to know the impact on the railway, though I would strongly suspect that the by-pass would have relatively little short term impact in this case since the by-pass doesn't really go parallel to the rail line, and the rather irregular rail service will have such a small proportion of Lancaster-Morecambe journeys anyway. Long term, it might be more damaging as people adjust things like where they live and work in response to the by-pass.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Has the by-pass made it easier to get to Lancaster? Driving on the by-pass itself will presumably get you to the M6 very quickly, but that won't help much in getting to Lancaster. It could make Lancaster-Morecambe journeys quicker in the short term though if it's removed some traffic from the main Lancaster-Morecambe road. I haven't been to Lancaster recently though so not sure if that has happened.

Yes I should have been more clear - once the bypass opened it became much easier to get to Lancaster now from Morecambe as there was much less traffic. I have noticed the traffic starting to creep up again though as people took advantage of the reduced journey times.

 

[thenorthern]

I am not sure if the bypass has changed passenger numbers although I do think if there was a direct train to Preston from Morecambe passenger numbers would go up.

The bypass I would say its more likely to affect numbers using Heysham Port station although the numbers themselves using Heysham Port are very low as the station is only useful for people taking the ferry.

 

[bradford758]

And in the mid 60s when the Green Ayre route closed Bradford-on-Sea was still popular - indeed I've spotted Morecambe-bound passengers with suitcases at Shipley much more recently....

It was, I think, in RR days that someone cottoned onto the idea of running most of the trains to Lancaster - and as RRNE and RRNW were separate units, there was a period when even Morecambe via Lancaster couldn't be managed. Thankfully that, at least, is Past!

Recent-ish history !
1970s most trains ran Leeds - Carnforth - Morecambe (passengers for Lancaster and connections changed at Carnforth onto the following train ex Barrow-in-Furness!)

1980s Leeds - Carlisle direct was reduced to two trains each way, and to appease passengers a new Leeds - Carnforth - Lancaster semi fast for connection to Carlisle and Leeds - Carnforth - Morecambe all stations workings
Later, after Leeds - Carlisle became a regular service, the Leeds - Lancaster and Leeds - Morecambe workings were merged into a new 2-hourly Leeds - Lancaster - Morecambe all stations service

1990s a reduced service with the 12xx and last service ex Leeds at 17xx dropped.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I am not sure if the bypass has changed passenger numbers although I do think if there was a direct train to Preston from Morecambe passenger numbers would go up.

There was a 2-hourly Liverpool-Morecambe service until December 2008 when it died as part of the VHF timetable; since then reaching Morecambe from the south is almost guaranteed to require a change at Lancaster. And at those times when pathing on the 2-track section between Preston and Lancaster is less constrained any through Northern service will tend to run to Barrow, as class 37 bashers will be well aware!

Recent-ish history !
1970s most trains ran Leeds - Carnforth - Morecambe (passengers for Lancaster and connections changed at Carnforth onto the following train ex Barrow-in-Furness!)

1980s Leeds - Carlisle direct was reduced to two trains each way, and to appease passengers a new Leeds - Carnforth - Lancaster semi fast for connection to Carlisle and Leeds - Carnforth - Morecambe all stations workings
Later, after Leeds - Carlisle became a regular service, the Leeds - Lancaster and Leeds - Morecambe workings were merged into a new 2-hourly Leeds - Lancaster - Morecambe all stations service

1990s a reduced service with the 12xx and last service ex Leeds at 17xx dropped.

The 1980s Leeds-Lancaster trains included loco-hauled workings with 31s the norm. Though I never witnessed it I believe one of the summer Saturday Morecambe trains was also loco-hauled on occasion: obviously this became impossible when Morecambe was rationalised.

 

[thenorthern]

There was a 2-hourly Liverpool-Morecambe service until December 2008 when it died as part of the VHF timetable; since then reaching Morecambe from the south is almost guaranteed to require a change at Lancaster. And at those times when pathing on the 2-track section between Preston and Lancaster is less constrained any through Northern service will tend to run to Barrow, as class 37 bashers will be well aware!

The 1980s Leeds-Lancaster trains included loco-hauled workings with 31s the norm. Though I never witnessed it I believe one of the summer Saturday Morecambe trains was also loco-hauled on occasion: obviously this became impossible when Morecambe was rationalised.

There is one evening train to Preston still although I think its just to have rolling stock in the correct place rather than to provide a through train.

Having loco hauled trains to Morecambe would still be possible as there is a run around loop there that is still usable. Loco hauled stock on smaller lines however has largely fallen out of favour now to multiple units on nearly every line that isn't an intercity route.

The loop at Heysham however has gone so it wouldn't be possible for it to run around there.

 

[Grumpy]

I am not sure if the bypass has changed passenger numbers although I do think if there was a direct train to Preston from Morecambe passenger numbers would go up.

.

I am sure you are right. And the train(s) should continue beyond Preston, either to the Manchester area or to Leeds via Blackburn and Bradford.

 

[30907]

Recent-ish history !
1990s reduced service with the 12xx and last service ex Leeds at 17xx dropped.

And at that point the weekday trains were terminated at Lancaster (BTW they called all stations in Airedale pre electrification).

Before the 31s the Lancaster fasts they were partly worked by the shortened Transpennine/Intercity DMUs IIRC.

 

[thenorthern]

I am sure you are right. And the train(s) should continue beyond Preston, either to the Manchester area or to Leeds via Blackburn and Bradford.

Manchester I think would be the most useful as its odd that Morecambe has direct trains to Leeds but not to Manchester.

And at that point the weekday trains were terminated at Lancaster (BTW they called all stations in Airedale pre electrification).

Before the 31s the Lancaster fasts they were partly worked by the shortened Transpennine/Intercity DMUs IIRC.

Are you sure that the Morecambe trains at one point were cut to Morecambe to Lancaster only?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Manchester I think would be the most useful as its odd that Morecambe has direct trains to Leeds but not to Manchester.

I think there's definitely something to be said for replacing the current Morecambe shuttle with - say - a half-hourly Morecambe-Manchester service. Besides providing Morecambe with a more attractive commuter timetable, it would address the problem of the commuter market between Lancaster and Preston being served only by long-distance trains, and help to absorb the crowds south of Preston and Bolton. I suspect you'd need capacity enhancements in the Manchester area to be able to run it though, and I wonder if conflicting moves where the Morecambe branch joins the WCML would also be a problem?

If you combined it with building a station at Lancaster University (there's plenty of land to put in passing loops there too so long distance trains can overtake), you'd also have a potentially very large, market for University staff/students, many of whom would then very likely choose to live in Morecambe, where there's less housing pressure than in Lancaster, and commute by train.

Oh dear, I'm getting into rail-enthusiast-dreaming-mode aren't I

 

[yorksrob]

I think there's definitely something to be said for having - say - a half-hourly Morecambe-Manchester service. Besides providing Morecambe with a more attractive commuter timetable, it would address the problem of the commuter market between Lancaster and Preston being served only by long-distance trains, and help to absorb the crowds south of Preston and Bolton. I suspect you'd need capacity enhancements in the Manchester area to be able to run it though.

If you combined it with building a station at Lancaster University (there's plenty of land to put in passing loops there too so long distance trains can overtake), you'd also have a potentially very large, market for University staff/students, many of whom would then very likely choose to live in Morecambe, where there's less housing pressure than in Lancaster, and commute by train.

Oh dear, I'm getting into rail-enthusiast-dreaming-mode aren't I

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Could ease the pressure on the Manc-Scotland services. Victoria could have done with those six through platforms of old though.

 

[thenorthern]

I think there's definitely something to be said for replacing the current Morecambe shuttle with - say - a half-hourly Morecambe-Manchester service. Besides providing Morecambe with a more attractive commuter timetable, it would address the problem of the commuter market between Lancaster and Preston being served only by long-distance trains, and help to absorb the crowds south of Preston and Bolton. I suspect you'd need capacity enhancements in the Manchester area to be able to run it though, and I wonder if conflicting moves where the Morecambe branch joins the WCML would also be a problem?

If you combined it with building a station at Lancaster University (there's plenty of land to put in passing loops there too so long distance trains can overtake), you'd also have a potentially very large, market for University staff/students, many of whom would then very likely choose to live in Morecambe, where there's less housing pressure than in Lancaster, and commute by train.

Oh dear, I'm getting into rail-enthusiast-dreaming-mode aren't I

Sounds like a very good idea, may I also add electrification of the Morecambe Branch Line as I think that would benefit the route as well, why did Beeching have to close the electrified direct route? Lancaster University station I think could get a fairly large passenger numbers.

I think as well if it was possible having a Heysham Town as well as Heysham Port would work very well and maybe having more trains to Heysham Port by negotiating with EDF energy about making rail travel to the power station more attractive.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Could ease the pressure on the Manc-Scotland services. Victoria could have done with those six through platforms of old though.

I think it's one of the best ideas ever posted here for a new station! Deserves a thread of its own. [Certainly more than than the mindless meanderings about reopenings in west Wales and SW Scotland <I dare not even breathe their names in here>. ]

Ok, in truth, I don't know how big/important Lancaster University is in terms of daily journeys, but it also has a conference centre, so presumably there woulld be more than just students, profs and acnillary staff doing daily commutes. Maybe it would also serve as a P&R for south Lancaster?

Dynamic Spirit - go to top of the class

 

[yorksrob]

I think it's one of the best ideas ever posted here for a new station! Deserves a thread of its own. [Certainly more than than the mindless meanderings about reopenings in west Wales and SW Scotland <I dare not even breathe their names in here>. ]

Ok, in truth, I don't know how big/important Lancaster University is in terms of daily journeys, but it also has a conference centre, so presumably there woulld be more than just students, profs and acnillary staff doing daily commutes. Maybe it would also serve as a P&R for south Lancaster?

Dynamic Spirit - go to top of the class

I think daily trips to the City would still be the preserve of the bus, what with services going straight to the campus underpass. That said, there might be more scope for daily commuting to places such as Preston and Morecambe for example.

 

[thenorthern]

I think it's one of the best ideas ever posted here for a new station! Deserves a thread of its own. [Certainly more than than the mindless meanderings about reopenings in west Wales and SW Scotland <I dare not even breathe their names in here>. ]

Ok, in truth, I don't know how big/important Lancaster University is in terms of daily journeys, but it also has a conference centre, so presumably there woulld be more than just students, profs and acnillary staff doing daily commutes. Maybe it would also serve as a P&R for south Lancaster?

Dynamic Spirit - go to top of the class

Lancaster University is quite big and given that its quite far from Lancaster City Centre I would think it could get some use from some students wanting to go into the city centre. Also it would get some use from people living in Galgate.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Has a station at Lancaster University ever been seriously considered? The university has around 4,500 staff and 13,000 students, to be increased by 2,000 once the new Health Innovation Centre opens in 2019.

There was a thread on this subject a few years ago.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46736

 

[70014IronDuke]

Lancaster University is quite big and given that its quite far from Lancaster City Centre I would think it could get some use from some students wanting to go into the city centre. Also it would get some use from people living in Galgate.

A new station would be what, 2 miles south of Castle station? It would then be a 10 min walk to the centre of the campus area? I confess, I'm not sure how well sited Lancaster Castle is for the city centre - last time I was on the platform there was a Standard 5 as station pilot

 

[absolutelymilk]

A new station would be what, 2 miles south of Castle station? It would then be a 10 min walk to the centre of the campus area? I confess, I'm not sure how well sited Lancaster Castle is for the city centre - last time I was on the platform there was a Standard 5 as station pilot

I assume that if a station was built then a free shuttle bus could run around campus or the uni could pay for free trips on the local buses which go around campus

 

[30907]

A new station would be what, 2 miles south of Castle station? It would then be a 10 min walk to the centre of the campus area? I confess, I'm not sure how well sited Lancaster Castle is for the city centre - last time I was on the platform there was a Standard 5 as station pilot

Very well sited for the tourist attractions, pretty reasonable for the city, bad for Cumbria Uni and well away from Lancaster Uni.

I haven't generally noticed overcrowding between Lancaster and Preston, the problem is that the 3 trains an hour are flighted close together to give good freight paths over Shap.

A fourth train in the hour might be able to serve a University station, but the problem is surely that most of the travellers would be long-distance anyway, and I can't see VT wanting to serve it.

That would leave the student commuters from their houses in Morecambe (don't think many live at home and commute from Preston even now), and even a half hourly service (which I can't see being remotely possible) would barely compete with the buses.

 

[30907]

Are you sure that the Morecambe trains at one point were cut to Morecambe to Lancaster only?

I was referring to Leeds-Morecambe. I can't get at the relevant timetables now, but anecdotally I took a church group from Cononley to Morecambe one summer in the early 90s, and the next year the same trip would have meant a change at Lancaster.

The change coincided with the whole service being operated from the Yorkshire end by RRNE, (which is when the 05xx Skipton-Lancaster appeared).

The original (post Leeds NW electrification) version of the present timetable had departures from Lancaster at 1045, 1300-ish and 1700, none of which permitted an extension to Morecambe. This has since, sensibly, altered.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think it's one of the best ideas ever posted here for a new station! Deserves a thread of its own. [Certainly more than than the mindless meanderings about reopenings in west Wales and SW Scotland <I dare not even breathe their names in here>. ]

Ok, in truth, I don't know how big/important Lancaster University is in terms of daily journeys, but it also has a conference centre, so presumably there woulld be more than just students, profs and acnillary staff doing daily commutes. Maybe it would also serve as a P&R for south Lancaster?

Dynamic Spirit - go to top of the class

Gosh, I wasn't expecting that kind of positive reaction. Thanks!

The University is potentially huge as a source of commuting. According to this page, 12K students, and I would guess at least a thousand staff. I'm guessing maybe half the students would live on campus, with most of the remainder living in Lancaster itself. And there's the hotel and conferences etc. Many years ago, substantial numbers of students also lived in Morecambe, but that tended to disappear during the 2000s - mainly I think because Morecambe to the Uni is such a slow journey by bus or car, and more student accommodation became available in Lancaster.

The students in Lancaster tend to live either in or south of the city centre (notably around Bowerham), since traffic in Lancaster is extremely congested, so almost anywhere north of the city centre will tend to give quite unpleasant and long journeys to the university. For most of those people, as well as those living in the Uni halls who want to get to Lancaster, the bus would still be most convenient, as it's extremely frequent (every 5-10 mins) and virtually door-to-door for many. A University station would be about 5-10 minutes walk from the centre of the University. Nearer 15 minutes for the departments and halls at the Southern end.

What I think a train would do is make it much more convenient for students and staff to commute from Morecambe (or from Preston), so you'd very quickly see substantial numbers starting to live there and using the train for their commutes. The same would happen to some extent in Marsh - a large housing area just west of Lancaster station, which currently has very poor road transport links (basically you can't get to anywhere without negotiating the traffic jams in Lancaster city centre first). and is therefore not convenient to get to the University from. A new station would also be used quite a bit by people coming from further afield - if catching a train at the University station could quickly get you to connections at Lancaster or Preston.

The nice thing about a new University station is that there is ample land round there to build it on, and you could basically site it virtually at the University main gates, where it would connect nicely with the local buses. Having ample demand for the station, land easily available to build it on, and frequent bus routes passing right next to the site is a rather nice combination that I suspect you wouldn't find in many other places in the UK.

The big problem right now however is of course that, even if you built a station at the University, there's almost nothing in the way of trains that currently run up that line that you could plausibly stop there - almost all trains are long-distance ones up to Scotland. That's where extending the Morecambe service so it runs Morecambe-Preston, or (better) Morecambe-Manchester, would come in, since that provides the trains that would stop at the University and also links the (hypothetical) station to all the housing in Morecambe too. Since Morecambe has for a long time been a relatively poor part of the area, I imagine, the impact on jobs etc. in Morecambe would be welcomed.

A new station would be what, 2 miles south of Castle station? It would then be a 10 min walk to the centre of the campus area? I confess, I'm not sure how well sited Lancaster Castle is for the city centre - last time I was on the platform there was a Standard 5 as station pilot

New station would be about 3 miles south of castle station. Castle station is about 5-10 minutes walk from the town centre, depending which bit of the town you want.

 

[Mordac]

I think it's one of the best ideas ever posted here for a new station! Deserves a thread of its own. [Certainly more than than the mindless meanderings about reopenings in west Wales and SW Scotland <I dare not even breathe their names in here>. ]

Ok, in truth, I don't know how big/important Lancaster University is in terms of daily journeys, but it also has a conference centre, so presumably there woulld be more than just students, profs and acnillary staff doing daily commutes. Maybe it would also serve as a P&R for south Lancaster?

Dynamic Spirit - go to top of the class

I used to work at Lancaster University, and this would have been a huge blessing, as getting from the station to Uni by was a huge pain in the arse, due to the awful one way system. Four-tracking through Lancaster city centre might be annoying though.

 

[QueensCurve]

Is there still a token on the branch? Only because with the nuclear trains I would have thought it would have made the token system difficult.

I don't really understand why it would be more difficult with the nuclear trains than with the passenger trains?

 

[bradford758]

I was referring to Leeds-Morecambe. I can't get at the relevant timetables now, but anecdotally I took a church group from Cononley to Morecambe one summer in the early 90s, and the next year the same trip would have meant a change at Lancaster.

The change coincided with the whole service being operated from the Yorkshire end by RRNE, (which is when the 05xx Skipton-Lancaster appeared).

The original (post Leeds NW electrification) version of the present timetable had departures from Lancaster at 1045, 1300-ish and 1700, none of which permitted an extension to Morecambe. This has since, sensibly, altered.

The service was operated from the Yorkshire end before that as the 05xx ran ecs from Skipton.

The reduced timetable also involved the 16xx from Lancaster/Morecambe only running as far as Skipton for a few years.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't really understand why it would be more difficult with the nuclear trains than with the passenger trains?

There are rules on where and when they can be stopped, for security reasons.

 

[thenorthern]

I don't really understand why it would be more difficult with the nuclear trains than with the passenger trains?

Given that beyond Bare Lane its on a token system to Heysham the nuclear train would have to arrive an go within a set time and not be able to stay overnight.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There are rules on where and when they can be stopped, for security reasons.

They can't be that particular where they stop because they stop in Carnforth station very regularly and I've never seen any police snipers on the station roof.

Given that beyond Bare Lane its on a token system to Heysham the nuclear train would have to arrive an go within a set time and not be able to stay overnight.

It never stays overnight. It normally barely stays at Heysham for an hour.

 

[thenorthern]

There are rules on where and when they can be stopped, for security reasons.

Nope there aren't any rules with stopping as Greenpeace complained that they were being kept in goods yards in London overnight.

Its important to note though that the flasks themselves are almost impossible to break into and even if someone threw a grenade at them nothing would happen to them.