Morpeth Curve

[Bald Rick]

Do the gaps in Northbound and Southbound nonstop services coincide at Morpeth to allow set down and shunt into the reversing siding which means a conflicting move with southbound traffic twice an hour?

They do. One of them already does it today.

 

[deltic08]

They do. One of them already does it today.

Only one? Two an hour are needed

 

[Bald Rick]

Only one? Two an hour are needed

Sorry, I mean that one an hour already does the move, and yes there is (generally speaking) room in the timetable for two an hour to do it, albeit not at 30 minute intervals.

I suggest the reason it doesn’t happen is that no one wants to pay the extra subsidy required for the service. Morpeth effectively has 2 tph now, Cramlington has a subsidy free bus every 10 minutes, Manors has a metro every 12 minutes. What transport problem would another service to Morpeth solve?

 

[InOban]

A good point. The limited stop bus takes 25 minutes, although whether it keeps to that at peak times, only users can tell us. The train takes 13 minutes.

 

[Killingworth]

A good point. The limited stop bus takes 25 minutes, although whether it keeps to that at peak times, only users can tell us. The train takes 13 minutes.

The bus gets considerable bus lane preference from leaving the modern A1 western by-pass down the old A1 into Newcastle. I've not travelled by bus on that section but jams build up on the dual carriageway before diverging onto the old road by Gosforth Park. I know the bus is likely to beat a car into town from that point on. It offers interchange to the Metro at Regent Centre.

Clearly where you want to be when you get to Newcastle is also a relevant consideration as bus and trains serve opposite ends of the city centre.

 

[deltic08]

Sorry, I mean that one an hour already does the move, and yes there is (generally speaking) room in the timetable for two an hour to do it, albeit not at 30 minute intervals.

I suggest the reason it doesn’t happen is that no one wants to pay the extra subsidy required for the service. Morpeth effectively has 2 tph now, Cramlington has a subsidy free bus every 10 minutes, Manors has a metro every 12 minutes. What transport problem would another service to Morpeth solve?

I believe it is North Tyneside and Northumberland CCs who want 2tph to Morpeth and a passenger service to Ashington.

As has been said on this forum many times, there are people who will not use a bus but will use a train and we need to get people out of cars and onto public transport to save the planet. Buses are more polluting than trains.

 

[Graeme]

The bus gets considerable bus lane preference from leaving the modern A1 western by-pass down the old A1 into Newcastle. I've not travelled by bus on that section but jams build up on the dual carriageway before diverging onto the old road by Gosforth Park. I know the bus is likely to beat a car into town from that point on. It offers interchange to the Metro at Regent Centre.

In the peak evening period, Arriva buses from Morpeth (X14 from Thropton, X15 from Berwick, X16 from Morpeth and X18 from Alnwick via Amble) are often up to twenty minutes late arriving at Newcastle Haymarket bus station because of traffic jams at Gosforth Park on the A1 Western Bypass, in Gosforth despite the bus lanes and on the final approach to the bus station in Newcastle. Therefore departure times are often later than advertised (once 35 mins later in my experience with the X18) and then further delays are incurred trying to reach the A1 at Gosforth Park again.

As has been said on this forum many times, there are people who will not use a bus but will use a train and we need to get people out of cars and onto public transport to save the planet. Buses are more polluting than trains.

I've tried using buses from my village in Northumberland to get to work in Newcastle. X18 takes roughly 1 hr 15 mins from bus stop to Newcastle. Add 15 mins walk from my home to the bus stop - seriously - and another 10 from bus station to office and even without delays that's a long time on a bus on very bumpy roads until reaching Morpeth. The X18 isn't always punctual either. It takes 30 mins by car to where I park in town and a 10 min walk to the office. There's a train alternative from Acklington or Widdrington but it still involves driving 3 miles each way and there's only one service morning and evening, neither of which fit my working hours. On the rare times I've used it, there are only about ten or 12 passengers on the Chathill to Newcastle morning service before it reaches Morpeth, getting on at Acklington and Widdrington - I've never seen anyone board at Pegswood.

I suppose it's the price I pay for living out in the country.

 

[Killingworth]

In the peak evening period, Arriva buses from Morpeth (X14 from Thropton, X15 from Berwick, X16 from Morpeth and X18 from Alnwick via Amble) are often up to twenty minutes late arriving at Newcastle Haymarket bus station because of traffic jams at Gosforth Park on the A1 Western Bypass, in Gosforth despite the bus lanes and on the final approach to the bus station in Newcastle. Therefore departure times are often later than advertised (once 35 mins later in my experience with the X18) and then further delays are incurred trying to reach the A1 at Gosforth Park again.



I've tried using buses from my village in Northumberland to get to work in Newcastle. X18 takes roughly 1 hr 15 mins from bus stop to Newcastle. Add 15 mins walk from my home to the bus stop - seriously - and another 10 from bus station to office and even without delays that's a long time on a bus on very bumpy roads until reaching Morpeth. The X18 isn't always punctual either. It takes 30 mins by car to where I park in town and a 10 min walk to the office. There's a train alternative from Acklington or Widdrington but it still involves driving 3 miles each way and there's only one service morning and evening, neither of which fit my working hours. On the rare times I've used it, there are only about ten or 12 passengers on the Chathill to Newcastle morning service before it reaches Morpeth, getting on at Acklington and Widdrington - I've never seen anyone board at Pegswood.

I suppose it's the price I pay for living out in the country.

Do buses interchange well with rail at Morpeth? That has little to do with an avoiding curve but is a good illustration of why rail doesn't pick up more traffic. The frequency, punctuality and bumpiness of stop-start buses is a turn off. The train is more comfortable, even a Pacer!

When I worked in Morpeth and lived in Newcastle I used the car for comfort and a door to door time of 20/25 minutes any time of day, easy. I'd have had to allow an hour by bus in the days before major congestion and X routes. It would have been totally impractical to add rail into the mix. Leaving aside the Newcastle end, Morpeth Station is a little way across the river and hidden up the hill from the Town centre bus station. Its car parking facilities are well used.

Which brings us back to the need for an avoiding curve. It's a tricky one. To get more to use the station you need more services. To speed long distance trains you need a clear line without stops. That's the issue nobody can easily resolve on routes around the globe where long distance trains that stop gain extra passengers to make them more convenient for more folk, but slower, like that stop-start bus!

 

[Bald Rick]

As has been said on this forum many times, there are people who will not use a bus but will use a train and we need to get people out of cars and onto public transport to save the planet. Buses are more polluting than trains.

But as has also been said many times, the number of people who won’t use a bus but will use a train are a small minority. Let us not forget that in this country buses carry 2 and a half times more people than the national rail network each year.

Buses are more polluting than electric trains. They are not more polluting than diesel trains, not by a long way.

 

[deltic08]

But as has also been said many times, the number of people who won’t use a bus but will use a train are a small minority. Let us not forget that in this country buses carry 2 and a half times more people than the national rail network each year.

Buses are more polluting than electric trains. They are not more polluting than diesel trains, not by a long way.

Oh yes they are. Even electric buses produce more PM 2.5 carcinogenic particulates than a diesel train emissions due to rubber tyre wear alone. Steel on steel is non polluting as far as particulate material is concerned. This is why we need more electrification and renewable generation.

Over the last ten years there has been massive increase in train users matched by an equal reduction in bus and coach use.

 

[Ken H]

I hate buses. They are uncomfortable & slow. While I will use the train I shun buses.
Had to be in Thornbury near Bradford the other day. Travelled from Leeds. 72 all the way? No, train to New Pudsey then the train. Slower, but less bus. (My business wasnt near an X6 stop....)

 

[swt_passenger]

I hate buses. They are uncomfortable & slow. While I will use the train I shun buses.
Had to be in Thornbury near Bradford the other day. Travelled from Leeds. 72 all the way? No, train to New Pudsey then the train. Slower, but less bus. (My business wasnt near an X6 stop....)

I last used a bus regularly to get to school in about 1965, and for one week to get to work in 1992. What are they like inside nowadays?

 

[greyman42]

I last used a bus regularly to get to school in about 1965, and for one week to get to work in 1992. What are they like inside nowadays?

Clean, modern but not very comfortable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh yes they are. Even electric buses produce more PM 2.5 carcinogenic particulates than a diesel train emissions due to rubber tyre wear alone. Steel on steel is non polluting as far as particulate material is concerned. This is why we need more electrification and renewable generation.

Over the last ten years there has been massive increase in train users matched by an equal reduction in bus and coach use.

We’ve been through your pollution statements before elsewhere in other threads. PM2.5 is but a small part of the pollution mix. CO2, NOx, SOx, VNOCs, etc etc are all a much larger proportion of pollution. Even then, I have shown the stats and sources of PM pollution, and shown that your first statement is not correct. A 3 car DMU will chuck out a lot, lot more pollution than 3 buses, and it doesn’t matter how many times you say it doesn’t.

 

[Bald Rick]

I last used a bus regularly to get to school in about 1965, and for one week to get to work in 1992. What are they like inside nowadays?

The electric one I was on on Friday was great!

 

[deltic08]

We’ve been through your pollution statements before elsewhere in other threads. PM2.5 is but a small part of the pollution mix. CO2, NOx, SOx, VNOCs, etc etc are all a much larger proportion of pollution. Even then, I have shown the stats and sources of PM pollution, and shown that your first statement is not correct. A 3 car DMU will chuck out a lot, lot more pollution than 3 buses, and it doesn’t matter how many times you say it doesn’t.

Maybe we have but you take no notice. It is PM2.5 particulates that cause the damage to our health and it comes mainly from wear pollution of rubber tyres not from exhaust emissions. It is carbon black in the tyres that is carcinogenic and mutatogenic firstly to the transfer membranes of the veoli and then other parts of the body by the blood and lymphatics.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Maybe we have but you take no notice. It is PM2.5 particulates that cause the damage to our health and it comes mainly from wear pollution of rubber tyres not from exhaust emissions. It is carbon black in the tyres that is carcinogenic and mutatogenic firstly to the transfer membranes of the veoli and then other parts of the body by the blood and lymphatics.

If the main problem comes from tyres, why then the big push to convert drivers from diesel to petrol?

 

[Ken H]

If the main problem comes from tyres, why then the big push to convert drivers from diesel to petrol?

because a lot of greenery isnt logical

Transporting wood pellets across the atlantic in polluting ships to burn in Drax?
Using rare earth minerals to make solar panels and batteries. rare minerals take vast amounts of energy to extract. Then carting them around the globe. And the batteries have a fairly short life.
Massive concrete bases to make wind turbines. Concrete is really bad for making C02.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe we have but you take no notice. It is PM2.5 particulates that cause the damage to our health and it comes mainly from wear pollution of rubber tyres not from exhaust emissions. It is carbon black in the tyres that is carcinogenic and mutatogenic firstly to the transfer membranes of the veoli and then other parts of the body by the blood and lymphatics.

I do take notice, and I understand the subject well. PMs do cause damage to health. A close relative of mine died due to cancer triggered by Carbon Black, but then he worked in a tyre factory.

Various studies have shown that the amount of PM produced by tyres and brakes etc varies by nature of the road conditions (naturally), but on average is broadly the same as the Euro V and Euro VI emmissions regulations that have been in force for 8 years (in the latter case). These regulations have been set to a level that is believed to limit damage to human health.

Note that diesel train engines do not get anywhere close to achieving the emissions regulations specified in Euro V and Euro VI, not just for PM but for all manner of pollutants. I’ll repeat what I said earlier - a 3 car DMU will be throwing out s lot more of all types of pollution than 3 buses.

I agree that electrification resolves this, but until we have battery hybrids with at least 100 mile range, we won’t have a widespread nationwide roll out of electric trains in this country.

 

[deltic08]

Deleted

 

[deltic08]

I do take notice, and I understand the subject well. PMs do cause damage to health. A close relative of mine died due to cancer triggered by Carbon Black, but then he worked in a tyre factory.

Various studies have shown that the amount of PM produced by tyres and brakes etc varies by nature of the road conditions (naturally), but on average is broadly the same as the Euro V and Euro VI emmissions regulations that have been in force for 8 years (in the latter case). These regulations have been set to a level that is believed to limit damage to human health.

Note that diesel train engines do not get anywhere close to achieving the emissions regulations specified in Euro V and Euro VI, not just for PM but for all manner of pollutants. I’ll repeat what I said earlier - a 3 car DMU will be throwing out s lot more of all types of pollution than 3 buses.

I agree that electrification resolves this, but until we have battery hybrids with at least 100 mile range, we won’t have a widespread nationwide roll out of electric trains in this country.

I worked in a tyre factory too waiting for med school entry but when I took a year out to take a B.Sc in Pathology including performing post mortems, I wish I hadn't as I might get lung carcinoma at an early age. I didn't...... so far.

Obviously your references and mine contradict each other. We will beg to differ on the source of where and how much PM 2.5 comes from.

Are you confusing PM2.5 with PM10 or 20 as they are very different in the damage they do to us?

Meanwhile back on topic.

 

[deltic08]

I haven't seen it on here, but Grayling has been visiting Ashington by train and promises Northumberland CC funds to reopen from Benton Jcn to Ashington. Seeing is believing!

I haven't seen a timeline but if they have done it twice now in ten years it shouldn't be more than a few months to renovate platform lighting, surfaces and edges at Ashington and add other stations later.

The loop from Morpeth to Bedlington would also be useful for turning back Newcastle-Morpeths via Bedlinton or vice versa.

 

[edwin_m]

Grayling has been visiting Ashington by train and promises Northumberland CC funds to reopen from Benton Jcn to Ashington. Seeing is believing!

He may have been on the train but as to promising funds he has done nothing of the sort. He's said he will look at the business case when the CC prepares it.

 

[deltic08]

He may have been on the train but as to promising funds he has done nothing of the sort. He's said he will look at the business case when the CC prepares it.

That means sitting on it then.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

That means sitting on it then.

That’s what this Government do best

 

[Steamysandy]

That’s what this Government do best

That's where their brains are !!

 

[swt_passenger]

I haven't seen it on here, but Grayling has been visiting Ashington by train and promises Northumberland CC funds to reopen from Benton Jcn to Ashington. Seeing is believing!

There were at least two threads on here which mentioned it when it happened last month, IIRC he only went to Bedlington, which presumably avoided reversals:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chris-grayling-backs-reopening-blyth-and-tyne.177921/
and:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/train-at-bedlington-railway-station-closed-nov-64.177896/

 

[transmanche]

In the peak evening period, Arriva buses from Morpeth (X14 from Thropton, X15 from Berwick, X16 from Morpeth and X18 from Alnwick via Amble) are often up to twenty minutes late arriving at Newcastle Haymarket bus station because of traffic jams at Gosforth Park on the A1 Western Bypass, in Gosforth despite the bus lanes and on the final approach to the bus station in Newcastle. Therefore departure times are often later than advertised (once 35 mins later in my experience with the X18) and then further delays are incurred trying to reach the A1 at Gosforth Park again.

There have been long-term roadworks along the B1318 (Great North Road, the old A1) between Gosforth Park and Regent Centre, along with a reduction of the speed limit from 40mph to 30mph on that section. Plus the seemingly never-ending A189 (Killingworth Road) closure has meant a lot of traffic is diverting onto the B1318, creating even more congestion.

 

[Graeme]

There have been long-term roadworks along the B1318 (Great North Road, the old A1) between Gosforth Park and Regent Centre, along with a reduction of the speed limit from 40mph to 30mph on that section. Plus the seemingly never-ending A189 (Killingworth Road) closure has meant a lot of traffic is diverting onto the B1318, creating even more congestion.

True, but my experiences on the bus route from Newcastle to Morpeth and beyond were before the current works at the North end of Gosforth started.

Replying to an earlier post, there is no real connectivity between bus and train in Moroeth, although there is an infrequent (and I believe subsidised) service to the station from the town centre - although I've never seen it when I've used Morpeth at varying times of day. The normal service buses involve a short walk to the X15/X18 stop.

 

[ainsworth74]

I noted that there was some discussion of EMUs for Morpeth to Metrocentre (with a quick bit of wiring extension to go with it) but from the May 2019 timetable there are only a handful of services that actually terminate at Metrocentre. Indeed from Morpeth it's a grand total of, er, one. Per day. The rest are through services to Carlisle or come up from the Durham Coast. I'd therefore suggest that this is something of a non-starter...