Most expensive bus journey in the UK?

[DelayRepay]

Hi,

I caught a bus at the weekend and was shocked that the fare was £3.20 for a 3 mile journey. Maybe I'm out of touch but last time I used a bus the fare wasn't this much! I also note that although the bus was full, only myself and one other passenger paid a fare. Another lady had a weekly pass, everyone else was using an ENCTS pass.

So am I out of touch, or is this the normal price? Bearing in mind I had to pay another £3 to get back (different company so couldn't buy a return), it would have been much cheaper for me to drive into town and pay for an afternoon's parking. How does this compare to other journeys elsewhere?

My friend who I was meeting paid just over £5 for his 20 mile rail journey to meet me!

How does this encourage use of public transport?

Was my £3.20 subsidising the OAPs? The bus would have only taken about £6 cash during the 20 minute journey...

 

[richw]

Sounds about right for a bus journey. All buses are expensive I've found these days. The two journeys I take most are £5 single for a 7-8 mile journey

 

[DelayRepay]

Oh OK. I guess I was just a bit shocked. I was expecting it to be about £2.

The bus certainly isn't the cheap option I thought it was

 

[plarailfan]

Yorkshire Coastliner operate long distance journeys around York, Malton, Scarborough, Whitby, etc.
Needless to say, fares on these routes are not quite what you might expect to pay for a humble bus ticket, although, to be fair, they are fast and frequent. http://www.yorkbus.co.uk/fares/Coastliner/Freedom1-DayAnd7-DayTickets_2.html

 

[fgwrich]

It isn't anymore, almost no matter where you are. The rising cost of fuel, subsidiaries and Free Bus Travel for people with certain requirements have all changed how buses are ran and paid for these days.

Now if you want Pricey, and linking with another thread here, you should try the services offered by Wilts & Dorset or More Bus as they seem to be calling themselves these days. Even just a Wareham to Swanage Fare is around the £5/6 mark these days, with it being about £8/9 to go from Bournemouth to Swanage. In most cases these days, looking around for ride-a-card type tickets can work out cheaper, First Day for example.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Worst I've had is £6.20 return for a trip just shy of two miles each way...

 

[yorkie]

Before we all try to answer the question in the title, are you asking for the highest priced journey per mile, and is that per mile actually travelled or per mile "as the crow flies"? Also are you excluding short-hop journeys of less than, say, a mile?

....
Was my £3.20 subsidising the OAPs? ...

In my opinion, definitely yes. Those of us who pay for buses are very much a minority and we increasingly have to pay through the nose to subsidise those who get free travel.

I am pro-subsidising public transport, but it should really be the wealthier people who drive who do the subsidising, not the poor people who have to have to pay for public transport!

 

[DelayRepay]

Before we all try to answer the question in the title, are you asking for the highest priced journey per mile, and is that per mile actually travelled or per mile "as the crow flies"? Also are you excluding short-hop journeys of less than, say, a mile?

I was just really expressing my shock but if people want to answer the question:
- Single journey (not return, day saver etc)
- £ per mile traveled (not as the crow flies)
- Journey >1 mile
- Not coach-type services

 

[causton]

short-hop journeys of less than, say, a mile?

If not...

Hatfield, College Lane to Hatfield, The Galleria. Served by at least 4 or 5 buses each hour with a single of £1.70. 0.0787 miles, so £21.60 a mile!

 

[DelayRepay]

I am pro-subsidising public transport, but it should really be the weather people who drive who do the subsidising, not the poor people who have to have to pay for public transport!

Like you, I agree with Public Transport being subsidised - but not to the extend that people who aren't OAPs are priced off the buses. In my town traffic is bad, parking spaces can be in short supply and pollution in the town centre is noticeable. I think if the buses were cheaper this might not be the case. I was on my own but if I'd been part of a couple, the day in town would have cost over £12.

 

[radamfi]

A large part of the problem is a lack of transparency. There is no obvious link between the distance travelled and the fare paid.

It is more obvious in other countries where there are zonal systems, which for some reason Britain has mostly shied away from, even before deregulation.

Even better is where there is a precise formula for calculating the fare. In the Netherlands, this is the case for local public transport. Each area has its own price per kilometre which is added to a fixed 'boarding fee'. The boarding fee does not apply if you change vehicles within 35 minutes, to ensure that you aren't penalised for changing.

http://wiki.ovinnederland.nl/wiki/OV-chipkaart#Kilometertarieven_bus.2C_tram_en_metro

For example, a 2 km trip in Amsterdam would be 0.148 x 2 + 0.87 = 1.166 euros

 

[South Westerly]

A large part of the problem is a lack of transparency. There is no obvious link between the distance travelled and the fare paid.

It is more obvious in other countries where there are zonal systems, which for some reason Britain has mostly shied away from, even before deregulation.

Even better is where there is a precise formula for calculating the fare. In the Netherlands, this is the case for local public transport. Each area has its own price per kilometre which is added to a fixed 'boarding fee'. The boarding fee does not apply if you change vehicles within 35 minutes, to ensure that you aren't penalised for changing.

http://wiki.ovinnederland.nl/wiki/OV-chipkaart#Kilometertarieven_bus.2C_tram_en_metro

For example, a 2 km trip in Amsterdam would be 0.148 x 2 + 0.87 = 1.166 euros

That's because there is no straight correlation between the fare required to cover the costs and the mileage.
Costs tend to be time based rather than distance. Most companies measure their route performance by revenue per hour.
The breakeven is relatively similar for all routes, assuming that they require peak buses.
The revenue is therefore the thing that changes between routes. To put it very simply, the revenue needs to cover the costs and provide a profit. the number of passengers (and the amount free journeys by OAPs are paid at) is what sets the fare. If it's a very busy route then the fares can be lower and provide enough revenue. If it is a (typically) rural route, with mostly end to end travel, and busy at peak times but not the rest of the day, then the fares will need to be higher.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

A few years back, myself and my father paid £11.10 to go from The Eden Project to St Austell railway station; it's only about 4 miles as well!

 

[fowler9]

I don't know but you could easily spend £2.20 going a few hundred yards where I live and another £2.20 coming back. At the same time you could spend £4.00 and ride around all day.

 

[radamfi]

That's because there is no straight correlation between the fare required to cover the costs and the mileage.
Costs tend to be time based rather than distance. Most companies measure their route performance by revenue per hour.
The breakeven is relatively similar for all routes, assuming that they require peak buses.
The revenue is therefore the thing that changes between routes. To put it very simply, the revenue needs to cover the costs and provide a profit. the number of passengers (and the amount free journeys by OAPs are paid at) is what sets the fare. If it's a very busy route then the fares can be lower and provide enough revenue. If it is a (typically) rural route, with mostly end to end travel, and busy at peak times but not the rest of the day, then the fares will need to be higher.

From the bus company's point of view, that may seem fair enough, but it can only increase the mistrust between passenger and operator. A good reason why fares should not be decided by a private company that is only interested in profit.

 

[causton]

Likewise, operators can decrease prices on routes that are lightly used to make people use them more. For example, once we had a large gap in service on a fast bus on a quiet route from Hatfield to a local town (it is now roughly hourly). Used the fast bus there and bought a return. Didn't check the timetable properly... Tried to use the ticket on the return journey on the same operator's bus on a slower route but despite taking twice the time, we had to either wait three hours for a fast bus or pay more to travel the slower route! We took the second option

 

[Polarbear]

I find that buses tend to be very expensive (relatively) for short journeys, but can be extremely cheap for long journeys (as long as time is on your side).

Needless to say, bus companies tend to do quite well where there are lots of people paying for short hops & this is reflected in the make-up of the current bus scene in the UK (where Arriva, First & to a lesser extent Stagecoach tend to monopolise urban areas).

In Liverpool, Arriva have a £2.20 flat fare which is darned pricey for someone going two stops (and plenty do believe me), but good value if you are on the bus for an hour or so.

I recall a few years back (pre Plus Bus era) being on the 555 route at Windermere going to Ambleside. People getting off the train & onto the bus were shocked & quite upset at being told that the network rover (then priced at about £8.00) was cheaper than getting a return ticket between the two points which are about 4.5 miles apart. It's a bit better today as there are a few other options available in that area.

 

[90019]

If not...

Hatfield, College Lane to Hatfield, The Galleria. Served by at least 4 or 5 buses each hour with a single of £1.70. 0.0787 miles, so £21.60 a mile!

Pfft, that's cheap.

Thirlestane Road to Beaufort Road in Edinburgh, both stops served by the 24. Being a Lothian bus it's a flat fare of £1.50 for a single, and the two stops are roughly 0.04 miles apart, so that's £37.50 per mile.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

In Glasgow in my experiences, McGill's have extravagant single fares whereas First Glasgow have a flat fare system, £1.20 for 5 stops or less, or £1.95 for anywhere else.

However this doesn't apply to First Glasgow services outwith of Glasgow City but a £1.95 single applies to East Kilbride for some reason...

 

[South Westerly]

From the bus company's point of view, that may seem fair enough, but it can only increase the mistrust between passenger and operator. A good reason why fares should not be decided by a private company that is only interested in profit.

Ah yes, but that isn't a matter for bus companies. The government and many local authorities sold them to private operators, spent the money on other things, and knew exactly what placing transport in the market would mean.

If governments change their mind and decide they want control back (and Labour had plenty of time to do it) then they are quite at liberty to renationalise them, and pay the private owners the market rate for their businesses.

PS Have you seen the fares in London and the eye watering subsidy paid by London's taxpayers?

 

[Abpj17]

The shortest stop in London I've spotted is shoe lane to fetter lane (both on fleet street). £2.20 for 400 yards.

 

[bb21]

It isn't anymore, almost no matter where you are. The rising cost of fuel, subsidiaries and Free Bus Travel for people with certain requirements have all changed how buses are ran and paid for these days.

Now if you want Pricey, and linking with another thread here, you should try the services offered by Wilts & Dorset or More Bus as they seem to be calling themselves these days. Even just a Wareham to Swanage Fare is around the £5/6 mark these days, with it being about £8/9 to go from Bournemouth to Swanage. In most cases these days, looking around for ride-a-card type tickets can work out cheaper, First Day for example.

W&D have historically been expensive. When it was independent, it operated a model with high fares to support a frequent service. That continued into the current operation. Rural fares for single rides have always been extremely expensive. A prime example I remember was in around 1999, a single on the X3 from Poulner just outside Ringwood to Bournemouth Square, a journey of about 13 miles, was £3.65. Now compare that to when the newly-formed Arriva Midlands introduced a pan-Midlands day ticket in 2004, at a cost of £3.75, valid in an area ranging from Peterborough to Oswestry. Wareham to Swanage was already hitting the £3 mark in 1999 so I am hardly surprised that it is now £5. Other examples from around 1999 were Bournemouth to Salisbury £4, Bournemouth to Southampton £4.10, and Salisbury to Fordingbridge just outside Ringwood £2.95 (for 11 miles). Bournemouth to Poole was £1.30 single for 5 miles so fares today seem quite good value. Also child fare only applied to the age of 13 so if you were 14, you pay full whack.

Single fares seem to be universally expensive these days, with return fares abolished in many cases as day tickets provide far better value.

 

[185]

Stagecoach Chester took over the local routes where I grew up, and the fares have rocketed. £3.80 was the only fare they had from the Plusbus boundary to the village I was travelling to, just 2.7 miles further.

That said, the week after when I did the first trip, in both directions, despite asking, the drivers didn't charge me, both stating it was a rip-off

 

[Shimbleshanks]

It isn't anymore, almost no matter where you are. The rising cost of fuel, subsidiaries and Free Bus Travel for people with certain requirements have all changed how buses are ran and paid for these days.

Now if you want Pricey, and linking with another thread here, you should try the services offered by Wilts & Dorset or More Bus as they seem to be calling themselves these days. Even just a Wareham to Swanage Fare is around the £5/6 mark these days, with it being about £8/9 to go from Bournemouth to Swanage. In most cases these days, looking around for ride-a-card type tickets can work out cheaper, First Day for example.

That's why they're called 'More Bus' - because it costs a lot more...

 

[Carlisle]

I recall a few years back (pre Plus Bus era) being on the 555 route at Windermere going to Ambleside. People getting off the train & onto the bus were shocked & quite upset at being told that the network rover (then priced at about £8.00) was cheaper than getting a return ticket between the two points which are about 4.5 miles apart. It's a bit better today as there are a few other options available in that area.

I had exactly the same issues with the high single fares on the nearby 516 Ambleside to Langdale bus service

 

[radamfi]

Ah yes, but that isn't a matter for bus companies. The government and many local authorities sold them to private operators, spent the money on other things, and knew exactly what placing transport in the market would mean.

If governments change their mind and decide they want control back (and Labour had plenty of time to do it) then they are quite at liberty to renationalise them, and pay the private owners the market rate for their businesses.

PS Have you seen the fares in London and the eye watering subsidy paid by London's taxpayers?

You don't need to renationalise. London buses and most buses in the Netherlands are privately owned.

Eventually, buses outside London will no longer be profitable so they will deregister their routes by choice, which has already happened in vast swathes of southern England.

Yet again, the supposedly high subsidy in London is quoted. It only seems high when compared to the virtually non-existent subsidy outside London. It is low compared to mass transit systems in the rest of the world.

 

[stut]

What about the Heathrow Hotel Hoppa? £4.50 for journeys under a mile...

 

[PeterC]

The shortest stop in London I've spotted is shoe lane to fetter lane (both on fleet street). £2.20 for 400 yards.

What are you catching that charges £2.20? The fare on TfL services is £1.45

The price of the ticket will be calculated to include a "boarding fee" which will form a disporportionate element in any ultra short journey.

 

[Busaholic]

You don't need to renationalise. London buses and most buses in the Netherlands are privately owned.

Eventually, buses outside London will no longer be profitable so they will deregister their routes by choice, which has already happened in vast swathes of southern England.

Yet again, the supposedly high subsidy in London is quoted. It only seems high when compared to the virtually non-existent subsidy outside London. It is low compared to mass transit systems in the rest of the world.

The buses in London may be privately owned (excepting the Borismaster) but their operators are completely constrained as to which routes they work on, what fares are charged and even what types of buses are allowed. They have not been in national ownership since 31/12/1969 but, with very few exceptions, all routes since the London Passenger Transport Board's inception in 1933 have either been operated by or under the aegis of LPTB and its successors, particularly in the old London County Council area that existed until 1965. If left to the private operators to decide where and when they wanted to run, even the most fervent free marketeer, at least one with constituents to listen to, would soon cry 'enough'. The London system works and if it ain't broke....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You don't need to renationalise. London buses and most buses in the Netherlands are privately owned.

Eventually, buses outside London will no longer be profitable so they will deregister their routes by choice, which has already happened in vast swathes of southern England.

Yet again, the supposedly high subsidy in London is quoted. It only seems high when compared to the virtually non-existent subsidy outside London. It is low compared to mass transit systems in the rest of the world.

You keep telling yourself that buses outside London will no longer be profitable. That was said in 1985!

If you want to re-regulate and control fares, then South Westerly is absolutely spot on. We sold the industry in good faith; if you want to centrally control the market, then you have to recompense those who bought it out of public ownership or have subsequently purchased those operations. SW is also on the nail - there's been no political will to change that and the Labour administrations of 1997 and 2001 (and 2005 to an extent) had big enough majorities and budget surpluses to change things....but they didn't

Also, in comparison to the UK, London does get a huge subsidy. The rest of the UK doesn't but hey, depends where you wish to spend your money. The UK has decided it wants an NHS that is more comprehensive than many other countries.

Back onto topic, the fact is that buses operate with a fixed cost base (e.g. vehicles, depots, back office) and a variable/semi-variable element (e.g. fuel, driving staff, maintenance/tyres). The boarding fee represents that fixed element and the taper reflects the variable elements, to put it over-simply.