Most Hated Bus

[Swanny200]

Did the body producer matter in terms of the 709Ds, I assume these would have been Alexander bodied for stagecoach, whereas a lot of the 609's and 709's that Maidstone and District had were Reeve Burgess bodies until they were replaced by the Varios

 

[GusB]

Did the body producer matter in terms of the 709Ds, I assume these would have been Alexander bodied for stagecoach, whereas a lot of the 609's and 709's that Maidstone and District had were Reeve Burgess bodies until they were replaced by the Varios

The very early Alexander conversions were horrendous. We had some imported from the south coast, presumably to replace Dodgy S56s which disappeared very quickly under the then new Stagecoach regime. These were joined by a few of the G-TSL/G-PAO Alexander AM batch which were a world apart.
Northern had also built up a small fleet of Mercs that were bodied by smaller independent concerns (Scott/Whittaker? etc.), and from memory these weren't too bad, although these had seats that were more coach-like, so that probably made a difference.

I've never had that much pleasure on a Solo!

The Solo was better than the MetroRider it replaced and that, in turn and even with MCW build quality, was better than the Dodge or Sherpas they replaced.

As for cruddy minibuses, the manual 709Ds Stagecoach had were truly dire. Gear changes through the power of Semtex and you bounced clean out of your seat on every pothole. Catching one over Honister was an...experience.

The issue with manuals is that you were dependent on the skills of the driver. I've seen some being driven quite well, and and also felt some horrendous crunches over the years!

I remember when Solos arrived - compared to what went before they were a breath of fresh air, to be honest, and they were far nicer than the early Dennis Drats.

 

[RJ]

I agree, some of the Euro 2 examples with the 6CT engine were awful/gutless. Thankfully the Euro 3 Cummins ISC offered from 2001 was a big improvement.

Those First London Euro 2 Tridents with the Cummins C220-20 engines were decent if looked after properly and the driver put their foot down! The first 30 seconds in each case should give an idea of how they should shift!

V plate
W plate
X plate
Y plate

Of course, the Euro 2 Tridents with the Cummins C245-20 engines were a fair bit quicker. I drove a load of these and many 260bhp Euro 3 Cummins ISCs and have to say the Euro 2s were quicker to 35mph than the Euro 3s!

As for Presidents, I quite like them - one that I drive has very effective saloon heating! I did drive some ex First Trident Presidents examples at Uxbridge and they weren't great from a driving perspective. The pedals were at an unusually steep angle and the cab seat was so high up my eyeline was in line with the sun visor...ergonomics fail.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Those First London Euro 2 Tridents with the Cummins C220-20 engines were decent if looked after properly and the driver put their foot down! The first 30 seconds in each case should give an idea of how they should shift!

V plate
W plate
X plate
Y plate

Of course, the Euro 2 Tridents with the Cummins C245-20 engines were a fair bit quicker. I drove a load of these and many 260bhp Euro 3 Cummins ISCs and have to say the Euro 2s were quicker to 35mph than the Euro 3s!

As for Presidents, I quite like them - one that I drive has very effective saloon heating! I did drive some ex First Trident Presidents examples at Uxbridge and they weren't great from a driving perspective. The pedals were at an unusually steep angle and the cab seat was so high up my eyeline was in line with the sun visor...ergonomics fail.

It's not a case of being "looked after properly" as they certainly weren't not in London and not in Glasgow, it's more the fact that those videos were when they were newer. They spent all their life being hammered around London and Glasgow and by the time we had to put up with them in later life (2013-2017) and they were battered beyond believe and just generally awful buses especially compared to the Wright Renowns of the same age (two of which are still going and run like new). All the drivers hated them and as such they were often limited to just peak extras. Particularly the cabs were the biggest compliant, impossible to get a good seating position, everything was in the wrong place and the button to open the doors being on the floor was a huge nuisance. They leaked like sieves and everything rattled. The lower deck capacity was rather pathetic too, again another reason they were only really used as peak extras most of the time. Most of them were horrendously slow, particularly the W-VLNs (also known by some drivers as "The slugs".) and reliability was poor too. We were only meant to have them on loan for 6 weeks but they lasted 4 years! Good riddance they've all been scrapped now. Maybe if they had been given a full in detail mechanical overhaul mid life my thoughts on them would be better, but my experience with Ex-London Tridents is anything but good

32976 was nice though, well until it went up in flames.​

The Ex-London Stagecoach examples we had (V-MEH and X-NNO batches) were pretty appalling too, V-MEH and X-NOO would've been better registration marks! That said the current 3 Trident2s we have (18000/110/111) aren't that great for reliability at the moment either, shame because all 3 particuarly 18111 are pretty decent. By far the best 'classic' Tridents we ever had were 18446/449. I say "classic Trident" because the 25 Enviro500s (Trident3 chassis) we have run rings around all the Tridents 2s (and most decker types for that matter), superb buses!

Rant over

 

[Bcn1973]

B7tl plaxton presidents

I HATED these buses when Metroline ran them for so long, rattly, And noiser than the aircraft at Heathrow airport , from which they ran their president equipped 140

Thankfully they are starting to go, replaced by b5tl Gemini 3s which are much quieter

I quite like the Wright streetdecks on 340 too, but arriva really can't look after them. 16 plate and they look shabby

Burnley bought some of these in 2001 and they were very good vehicles, build quality was rattle free seats comfy and they're still in service now and tbh a lot better than the Wright's geminis that came after them

 

[Eyersey468]

It's not a case of being "looked after properly" as they certainly weren't not in London and not in Glasgow, it's more the fact that those videos were when they were newer. They spent all their life being hammered around London and Glasgow and by the time we had to put up with them in later life (2013-2017) and they were battered beyond believe and just generally awful buses especially compared to the Wright Renowns of the same age (two of which are still going and run like new). All the drivers hated them and as such they were often limited to just peak extras. Particularly the cabs were the biggest compliant, impossible to get a good seating position, everything was in the wrong place and the button to open the doors being on the floor was a huge nuisance. They leaked like sieves and everything rattled. The lower deck capacity was rather pathetic too, again another reason they were only really used as peak extras most of the time. Most of them were horrendously slow, particularly the W-VLNs (also known by some drivers as "The slugs".) and reliability was poor too. We were only meant to have them on loan for 6 weeks but they lasted 4 years! Good riddance they've all been scrapped now. Maybe if they had been given a full in detail mechanical overhaul mid life my thoughts on them would be better, but my experience with Ex-London Tridents is anything but good

32976 was nice though, well until it went up in flames.​

The Ex-London Stagecoach examples we had (V-MEH and X-NNO batches) were pretty appalling too, V-MEH and X-NOO would've been better registration marks! That said the current 3 Trident2s we have (18000/110/111) aren't that great for reliability at the moment either, shame because all 3 particuarly 18111 are pretty decent. By far the best 'classic' Tridents we ever had were 18446/449. I say "classic Trident" because the 25 Enviro500s (Trident3 chassis) we have run rings around all the Tridents 2s (and most decker types for that matter), superb buses!

Rant over

It was a similar story with the President/B7TLs we bought from London in 2012, our native Presidents were fantastic buses but the ex London ones were knackered when we got them.

 

[Driver362]

Those horrible BMC things. Just horrendous piles of junk. Only decent thing about them was the Cummins engine!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Those horrible BMC things. Just horrendous piles of junk. Only decent thing about them was the Cummins engine!

Try being a passenger one on... At least the drivers get a comfy seat!

 

[Driver362]

Bloddy loathsome things noisy, soft suspension and poor brakes. I can still here the thing in my ears now!

 

[Pat1105]

Absolutely detest ADL Enviro 200's. Horrible rattly things and suspension that is non existent! The Mellor Strata's that Diamond have got are horrible things too: not enough seating on the lower level so makes it more difficullt for the elderly to access seats further back, quite noisy when accelerating and at speed, suspension too firm and the door takes an age to open and close.

 

[Zakforbes4]

Enviro 200 Is weird I hate them but love them they are built cheap and rattle but my god do they sound amazing (Im not talking about the MMC ones)

On the other hand the Wright Streetlites are just awful especially the ones first glasgow have they rattle there jolty and just arent nice to ride.

There is also E300 There much better than e200s and are super comfy but my god are they boaring (im not talking about Transbus ones)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Absolutely detest ADL Enviro 200's. Horrible rattly things and suspension that is non existent! The Mellor Strata's that Diamond have got are horrible things too: not enough seating on the lower level so makes it more difficullt for the elderly to access seats further back, quite noisy when accelerating and at speed, suspension too firm and the door takes an age to open and close.

And yet, I heard a couple of old dears in Willenhall extolling the virtues of the Strata (not that they knew what it was).

 

[CN04NRJ]

Enviro 200 Is weird I hate them but love them they are built cheap and rattle but my god do they sound amazing (Im not talking about the MMC ones)

On the other hand the Wright Streetlites are just awful especially the ones first glasgow have they rattle there jolty and just arent nice to ride.

There is also E300 There much better than e200s and are super comfy but my god are they boaring (im not talking about Transbus ones)

Really? I still have nightmares about driving Voith E200s even though I left my old job three months ago lol. Awful things in every way!

 

[Pat1105]

And yet, I heard a couple of old dears in Willenhall extolling the virtues of the Strata (not that they knew what it was).

Yes, I tend to find that the older passengers like the mellors. One even called it ‘the posh bus’ on the 223 once (well, I suppose it is posh if you compared it so a clapped out dart!). My problem is, there just simply isn’t enough accessible seats or storage for passenger luggage. I’ve had experiences on the 80 (Bilston - Moxley) where there were about 3 shopping trolleys all crammed in. Not only is it inconveniencing as they block the aisle, but can be dangerous if ever the bus had to be evacuated quickly for whatever reason. Yes the mellors may be suitable on some routes, but for busier routes they’re just rubbish!

 

[jammy36]

Yes the mellors may be suitable on some routes, but for busier routes they’re just rubbish!

I agree, but that's not the fault of the vehicle, but the fault of the company for buying/allocating unsuitable vehicles. I find the Strata surprisingly good and refined for what is essentially a "breadvan" and far better than Mercedes own offering. Used correctly I think the Strata is actually a good product and not "hated" as per the thread title.

 

[Pat1105]

I agree, but that's not the fault of the vehicle, but the fault of the company for buying/allocating unsuitable vehicles. I find the Strata surprisingly good and refined for what is essentially a "breadvan" and far better than Mercedes own offering. Used correctly I think the Strata is actually a good product and not "hated" as per the thread title.

Yes, I think Diamond could have chosen a better vehicle (a 7.9 solo would have been better in my opinion) or improve their allocations of them. The 80 in my opinion should be operated by a solo and there are some occasions where it can be. Granted Diamond can’t allocate anything bigger than a solo due to the narrow roads, especially round Bradley. I find the mellors to be rather noisy, especially when accelerating. The mellor can be a very good product I agree, when used on the correct route. An example of where this works well is Monmouthshire Council’s 65 route (Monmouth - Chepstow) as it includes some very narrow lanes. There aren’t too many passengers usually on this route either, which makes it easy to access with trollies e.t.c.

 

[MotCO]

The 80 in my opinion should be operated by a solo and there are some occasions where it can be. Granted Diamond can’t allocate anything bigger than a solo due to the narrow roads, especially round Bradley. I find the mellors to be rather noisy, especially when accelerating. The mellor can be a very good product I agree, when used on the correct route.

Isn't there a substantial price differential betweeen a purpose-built Solo and a Mellor conversion?

 

[Pat1105]

Isn't there a substantial price differential betweeen a purpose-built Solo and a Mellor conversion?

Yes, I’d imagine there would be. However, for a large company like Diamond, cost isn’t as crucial as to what it would be for a smaller operator because they have more vehicles for costs to be spread over, which increases their profit margin. Also, poor vehicle choice could reduce customer satisfaction, for example passengers being left at stops due to capacity issues or not being able to access the back seats. Therefore, customers may find an alternative if there is one available. I certainly avoid using a mellor if I can .

 

[jammy36]

Isn't there a substantial price differential betweeen a purpose-built Solo and a Mellor conversion?

I believe there is a decent price difference. The Strata isn't technically a conversion though. It's a proper coach-built body mounted on a Mercedes chassis cab, but with a purpose built (manufacturer supported)drop-frame mid section.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, I’d imagine there would be. However, for a large company like Diamond, cost isn’t as crucial as to what it would be for a smaller operator because they have more vehicles for costs to be spread over, which increases their profit margin. Also, poor vehicle choice could reduce customer satisfaction, for example passengers being left at stops due to capacity issues or not being able to access the back seats. Therefore, customers may find an alternative if there is one available. I certainly avoid using a mellor if I can .

The purchase price may be higher than a Sprinter but certainly better than an e200 or a Solo. However, it's the cost of operation that is the real cost factor in terms of MPG and cost/availability of parts.

It may be that lower costs may actually keep services viable.

 

[Pat1105]

It may be that lower costs may actually keep services viable.

I suppose, but the majority of Diamond’s services in the West Midlands are subsidised tenders funded by TfWM so they’re helping to pay for the cost of running the service. Although the lower costs would certainly help Diamond in submitting the lowest bid for running the service.

 

[Chris217]

As a bus driver,I wasnt keen on Volvo B6s.
As an enthusiast though I loved them!
Some of the ones we had at Gilmoss were dire to drive,but they made some nice sounds.
Nowadays,I can't go a bungle on MMC's and Optare Solo's.

Does anyone ever remember CVE Omni's?
CMT Buses had some. When they worked,they were truly awful!
Most of the time,they were VOR though!

When I started at Glenvale in 2003,the worst buses we had were short wheelbase Plaxton Darts with spring suspension!
They were secondhand from London and a lot newer than all the ex LT Titans and Metrobuses we had which btw were far better in my opinion.
When Stagecoach took us over,we inherited some ex United Counties Olympians with Gardner engine and ZF transmission.
Another awful bus to drive!
Today we have bog standard E300's on ADL chassis. And E300 MAN's.
Some of the MANs are ok,but we also have some bad ones,and I always seem to get the bad ones lol.
As an enthusiast I prefer older buses like Atlanteans,Nationals,Bristol VRs etc.
As a driver though I liked our ADL Pointer Darts which were a breeze to drive.
Quite liked ALX400 Tridents and the newer E400 Tridents.
Would love a go of the Arriva VDL Geminis at Speke depot and a Pulsar.
They'd get some serious vehicle abuse
(thrash) from me lol.

 

[Swanny200]

Yes I remember the Omni's, the Optare Alero's of their time, now if you do spot a rare one, it will be a camper conversion,

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does anyone ever remember CVE Omni's?

Yep - I used to drive past the factory where they were made (in Shildon, Co Durham) but never thought to take a photo of them.

 

[Beemax]

What I like as an enthusiast and what I like as a passenger are two very different things. When I grew up in Southampton in the 60’s the Corporation had two types of AEC Regent; a Park Royal version which was ugly and angular with dark cream utilitarian interiors and very shallow upper-deck windows which contributed to an overall gloomy ambiance; and an East Lancs version which although only about a year newer, was about 20 years ahead in terms of interior design and at the time a much more pleasant travelling experience. However, if offered the chance to ride one now I’d go for the Park Royal version anyday.

 

[bussnapperwm]

When they ran them, the TWM Wright Crusader Volvo B6LEs.

In Dudley there is one hill that is really notorious in its gradient. Half the fleet struggled up that hill (with one driver allegedly kicking some passengers off so the bus could get up part of the hill).
Fortunately they got replaced with Excels on that route, followed by 64 plate E200s (albeit now the route is ran by 56/12 plate Urbans!)

 

[Pat1105]

When they ran them, the TWM Wright Crusader Volvo B6LEs.

In Dudley there is one hill that is really notorious in its gradient. Half the fleet struggled up that hill (with one driver allegedly kicking some passengers off so the bus could get up part of the hill).
Fortunately they got replaced with Excels on that route, followed by 64 plate E200s (albeit now the route is ran by 56/12 plate Urbans!)

Which hill/route was it? Guessing it’s the 27/A?

 

[bussnapperwm]

Which hill/route was it? Guessing it’s the 27/A?

Lodge Farm, Netherton. The one that's on the 283/583/81/11/whatever they number it today route.

 

[Pat1105]

Lodge Farm, Netherton. The one that's on the 283/583/81/11/whatever they number it today route.

Aah yes, I know that hill. It was the 81 until the service changes but then became the 11.