Motorway Driving - too many idiots

[Islineclear3_1]

There will be differing opinions on this but in my opinion, frequent lane-changing/weaving in and out between lane 1 and 2 (just to squeeze in between lorry gaps) is more dangerous than cruising in Lane 2 - especially when going uphill and on a motorway with several junctions fairly close to one another.

 

[bramling]

Not at 6am in the morning on my local motorway!

In terms of middle-lane hogging; sometimes this is unavoidable in the rush hour when you have lots of lorries in lane 1 and changing lanes frequently is just too dangerous.

Rush hour is different as the road is more likely to be running at or near capacity. What is simply unacceptable is having people sat in the middle or third lanes of an empty motorway at 2200 in the evening, which is what I’m increasingly seeing happening round my way. In fact I can guarantee encountering several of these now on my journey home from work. They should be spot-fined as a priority, as it demonstrates a total lack of attention to the task in hand.

Bear in mind it must be "exceptional hardship" (i.e. over and above the hardship that drivers - or others - would normally endure if they were banned). Here's the magistrates' guidance when considering such an argument:

When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:

It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn.

Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence;

Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.

If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.

Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable;

Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others.

However, that said, I believe that the facility should not be available at all. Drivers subject to a "totting up" ban must have committed at least two, and more usually three or four offences before being subject to it. They have ample opportunity to modify their driving. The same facility is not available to drivers subject to a mandatory ban (e.g. for excess alcohol) or for those on whom the court imposes a discretionary ban when it is considered that points are insufficient. I can't see why an argument should be available to avoid a totting up ban when it is not available for immediate disqualifications.

Agreed. Loss of employment is essentially tough luck for something that’s entirely within their gift. When their poor driving causes an accident someone else may also lose their employment for completely different reasons, and beyond their control, and that’s what we should be striving to prevent by getting bad drivers off the road.

 

[Enthusiast]

They should be spot-fined as a priority,...

Just to note that there is no "on -the-spot" fining facility for driving offences. All allegations reported by officers are subject to consideration by their "back office", who decide what enforcement action (if any) to take.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be differing opinions on this but in my opinion, frequent lane-changing/weaving in and out between lane 1 and 2 (just to squeeze in between lorry gaps) is more dangerous than cruising in Lane 2 - especially when going uphill and on a motorway with several junctions fairly close to one another.

I can see arguments both ways on that - however if it's possible to "undertake" you (i.e. pass on the left) while correctly* leaving stopping distances then you're in the wrong lane.

* BMW practice of doing so without leaving appropriate stopping distances does not count.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I can see arguments both ways on that - however if it's possible to "undertake" you (i.e. pass on the left) while correctly* leaving stopping distances then you're in the wrong lane.

* BMW practice of doing so without leaving appropriate stopping distances does not count.

Lorries are doing 50-60mph on average

* I don't drive a BMW but I know what you mean

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lorries are doing 50-60mph on average

I know what they're doing - the point is that you should pull left unless to do so would cause you to be too close to the vehicle in front to be sensible/safe. Staying out to overtake a run of lorries with only small gaps between them can make sense, but not if there's a considerable distance to the next set.

 

[75A]

56mph is their legal limit allegedly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

56mph is their legal limit allegedly.

Car speedometers read high (because reading even 1mph low is illegal) so typically they'll appear to be doing 60 or thereabouts when they are actually doing 56 (90km/h).

 

[75A]

Regularly on the A75 between Stranraer & Dumfries my speedo is showing 70+ on the open road and I've got an Artic in my boot.

 

[MotCO]

I know what they're doing - the point is that you should pull left unless to do so would cause you to be too close to the vehicle in front to be sensible/safe. Staying out to overtake a run of lorries with only small gaps between them can make sense, but not if there's a considerable distance to the next set.

I think one of the most dangerous actions taken on a motorway is to change lane; that is not to say never change lane, but be very careful when you do. For example, beware of vehicles in lanes 1 and 3 both trying to move into lane 2 at the same time.

Re 'undertaking', is it alright to be in lane 1 passing vehicles going slower in lanes 3 and 4?

Lastly, something that annoys me is when you pull out to overtake a vehicle going slower than you, who then accelerates so you have to pull back in. Why do vehicles suddenly change speed? Are they just not paying attention, are they looking at their texts, or are they distracted by their on board video displays trying to adust their climate control etc.

 

[gabrielhj07]

There are remarkable scenes daily on the M23/A23 - as it changes from Motorway to A road. The M23 is a lane discipline nightmare, awful behaviour all the way from the M25 to J10/10A - lane 3 (out of 4) hogging, unnecessary braking by people doing 71.5, the lot.
By contrast, the A23 is usually fantastic, very few people in the outside lane, swift overtakes, proper use of indicators, sensible distances kept, etc. Must be something to do with no threat of speed cameras and the faster speeds in general - keeping people awake.

Lastly, something that annoys me is when you pull out to overtake a vehicle going slower than you, who then accelerates so you have to pull back in. Why do vehicles suddenly change speed? Are they just not paying attention, are they looking at their texts, or are they distracted by their on board video displays trying to adust their climate control etc.

A lot of the time I reckon the driver and their ego don't like being overtaken, particularly if you've gone from lane 1 to 3 to get past them.

 

[bramling]

A lot of the time I reckon the driver and their ego don't like being overtaken,

Yes I’ve formed the view that driving seems to show up flaws in humanity. People behave in ways they wouldn’t do in a face-to-face situation, but when sheltered by their vehicle the true - unpleasant - self comes out.

It also shows up a flaw that some people are heavily lacking in self-awareness, unfortunately lacking awareness of deficiencies means it follows that such people make no attempt to correct those deficiencies.

What also doesn’t help is the whole funny culture surrounding road vehicles where people seem to feel that their vehicle is a proxy for status. Which is quite ironic nowadays given how many vehicles are leased rather than owned outright.

 

[Enthusiast]

56mph is their legal limit allegedly.

The speed limit for large HGVs is 60mph (on motorways and dual carriageways). However, most HGVs have speed limiters fitted restricting them to 90kmh (56mph). This was a result of an EU directive stemming from the 1990s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think one of the most dangerous actions taken on a motorway is to change lane; that is not to say never change lane, but be very careful when you do. For example, beware of vehicles in lanes 1 and 3 both trying to move into lane 2 at the same time.

A good plan is to always be "offset" when changing lane, never change lane into another vehicle's blind spot, particularly not a lorry or coach.

Re 'undertaking', is it alright to be in lane 1 passing vehicles going slower in lanes 3 and 4?

There is no specific law against "undertaking" so it will depend.

If traffic is moving in queues fine.

If it's because lane 3 is doing 70mph and you wish to exceed the speed limit, almost certainly not fine if (if!) a police officer saw it.

Lastly, something that annoys me is when you pull out to overtake a vehicle going slower than you, who then accelerates so you have to pull back in. Why do vehicles suddenly change speed? Are they just not paying attention, are they looking at their texts, or are they distracted by their on board video displays trying to adust their climate control etc.

Yes, that is very annoying. Aside from exiting a speed limit, if someone is overtaking you let them complete the manoevre, don't accelerate. if you then want to accelerate, re-overtake. This is infuriating as it tends to result in a queue of undertaking, speeding BMWs too close to the errant car for you to safely get back in.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nowadays in the UK I often pass slower drivers on the wrong side, I just can't be bothered, although I know I'm opening myself up to trouble by doing so.

Re 'undertaking', is it alright to be in lane 1 passing vehicles going slower in lanes 3 and 4?

Passing slower vehicles on the inside is not illegal.



A couple of weeks ago, travelling back south one evenign around 8pm, I counted how many cars I passed in such a fashion on the M1 (which is the worst for it in my experience). Joined the M1 from the M6, and cleared 100 cars before Luton….

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passing slower vehicles on the inside is not illegal.

It is not specifically illegal. But, if (if!) a police officer sees it, it could be prosecuted as careless driving, driving without due care and attention or dangerous driving, depending on its exact context or how necessary it was, as can any other non-legislative part of the Highway Code. See also using a mobile phone in a cradle (only hand-held use is specifically illegal) or drinking a can of Coke or a coffee.

The default is not to do it, certainly. There may be cases where it is justified, but "because I can't be bothered pulling right to overtake a middle lane hog on an otherwise quiet motorway" isn't one - because people won't expect it it's unnecessary risk.

 

[Bald Rick]

by coincidence I saw this on social media today…




Image is a diagram titled “driving styles on a 4 lane motorway”

Lane 1 : HGV doing 55.99mph, with a Fiat 500 “hiding in the blind spot for 50 miles”
Lane 2 : empty
Lane 3 : 6 cars doing 68mph “the natural habitat for middle lane hoggers on a 4 lane motorway”
Lane 4: 3 cars doing 80 mph “these three cars only met but bonded immediately to form a fast convoy and will judge any car that cost less than 50k”. Then behind, them, 1 car doing 68.1mph, and one roght behind that doing 90mph “slow overtaker being tailgated by aggressive BMW / Range Rover / any car with a spoiler being driven by an 18 year old”

 

[baz962]

56mph is their legal limit allegedly.

Does that apply/are they fitted to non UK vehicles.

 

[Bishopstone]

It is not specifically illegal. But, if (if!) a police officer sees it, it could be prosecuted as careless driving, driving without due care and attention or dangerous driving, depending on its exact context or how necessary it was, as can any other non-legislative part of the Highway Code. See also using a mobile phone in a cradle (only hand-held use is specifically illegal) or drinking a can of Coke or a coffee.

The default is not to do it, certainly. There may be cases where it is justified, but "because I can't be bothered pulling right to overtake a middle lane hog on an otherwise quiet motorway" isn't one - because people won't expect it it's unnecessary risk.

My default is to pass on the inside, and waft along the nearside lane encountering very little stress, and often little traffic. The speed differential between the Honda Jazz in the middle lane (constant 53mph) and the Audi S3 in the outside lane (119mph) means it's got to be safer to pass the Jazz on the inside. Of course, I don't linger in blind spots and prepare myself to dive onto the hard shoulder if the Jazz driver decides to pull-over without checking mirrors - but normally they're rooted to their lane, in their own little world.

I am not a lawyer etc, but on the basis the traffic cops remain passive whilst Grand Theft Auto standards of driving ensue around them, it seems unlikely they'd pull me for undertaking (at 65mph) Ronald in his Yaris, and charge me with a 'not specifically illegal' offence. And if they did, I guess this is the kind of thing that 'Mr Loophole' character would assist with!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My default is to pass on the inside, and waft along the nearside lane encountering very little stress, and often little traffic. The speed differential between the Honda Jazz in the middle lane (constant 53mph) and the Audi S3 in the outside lane (119mph) means it's got to be safer to pass the Jazz on the inside.

Other than on the M40 or M6 Toll (due to lack of enforcement) your alleged 119mph is really quite unknown these days. In my experience I'm quite likely to be in Lane 3 at an indicated 73 (actual 70) and be the fastest car, certainly in my extensive experience of the M1 and M6.

Yes, there's a reasonable chance you might get pulled for doing that if (if!) there are any actual police instead of traffic officers. It's classic DWDCAA to just pootle along without paying much attention, as much if you do it in lane 1 as lane 2.

 

[gabrielhj07]

It also shows up a flaw that some people are heavily lacking in self-awareness, unfortunately lacking awareness of deficiencies means it follows that such people make no attempt to correct those deficiencies.

I agree, and in particular I think that drivers need to be aware of what they’re driving. A 69hp Fiat 500 seldom has any business drag racing Ford Transits in the outside lane.

Other than on the M40 or M6 Toll (due to lack of enforcement) your alleged 119mph is really quite unknown these days.

There is, of course, an unofficial minimum speed of 95 on the M3 between the M25 & A316 most weekdays.

 

[corfield]

I think one of the most dangerous actions taken on a motorway is to change lane; that is not to say never change lane, but be very careful when you do. For example, beware of vehicles in lanes 1 and 3 both trying to move into lane 2 at the same time.

Re 'undertaking', is it alright to be in lane 1 passing vehicles going slower in lanes 3 and 4?

My understanding of case law is that with regards to undertaking, it is permissable to continue in your current lane upto the legal speed limit.*

If that means passing some twunt in “outer” lanes doing 5-15mph slower then so be it. I’ve done it with a cop car behind, just cruised past and stayed in my lane for a fair old while, the cop car did the same.

*which is the catch, as tbh it is rare to be able to really undertake and actually be under 70.

Lastly, something that annoys me is when you pull out to overtake a vehicle going slower than you, who then accelerates so you have to pull back in. Why do vehicles suddenly change speed? Are they just not paying attention, are they looking at their texts, or are they distracted by their on board video displays trying to adust their climate control etc.

This behaviour does my head in, whether I’m using cruise control or driving “full manual” I drive at a constant speed and only adjust (downwards) if something is blocking me.

Having overtaken something doing 2-10mph slower only for them to speed up and come past me and then slow back to their original difference and mean I have to go through it all again is very anoying - and incredibly distracting to constantly having to plan such additional overtakes on top of all the other interactions and assessments of cars. I dont give a monkey’s about being in front or behind car X per se, I just want to get somewhere at the speed I’m trying to travel at, so either go in front or behind but make your ruddy mind up.

I must admit just doing 90+ in the outside lane is vastly less stressful, you are going past everything and you control when and how and then its done. None of the “are they catching/dropping” or “when should I pull out/in” or “how much risk is there of getting stuck if I dont move now” internal monologue. Also better in rain as it gets a tiny fraction of the spray and often you can be wipers off vs wipers max even a few metres to the left such is the kick up of spray from HGVs on the inside.

I think a lot of outer lanes cruising is people tired of the endless mental calcualtions as to when/if they should pull in and lots of experience of then finding themselves blocked in by a solid stream materialising to their right.

“Move to the left if clear” is great, but define “clear”, noting the HA ads themselves dont.

Other than on the M40 or M6 Toll (due to lack of enforcement) your alleged 119mph is really quite unknown these days. In my experience I'm quite likely to be in Lane 3 at an indicated 73 (actual 70) and be the fastest car, certainly in my extensive experience of the M1 and M6.

Yes, there's a reasonable chance you might get pulled for doing that if (if!) there are any actual police instead of traffic officers. It's classic DWDCAA to just pootle along without paying much attention, as much if you do it in lane 1 as lane 2.

You dont drive the M40 much I guess… seems to have relatively little HGV traffic on it so cars are (can be) better at keeping left. And hence the outside lane is free much more. It also seems laid out for high speed driving, I do wonder what much of it’s design speed actually was.

I also do and have always driven the M1&6 a lot, 90+ cruising is eminently possible outside of actual congestion nearly all the time. 73/70 in the outside lane would see a fairly constant stream of people build up behind you… I’ve just got back from a trip where I set the cruise to 77 and I spent most of that in the middle lanes being overtaken.

I agree with the OP that with a significant speed differential then undertaking with a wide berth and a preparadness to go left is pretty easy. I suspect most hogs remain unaware of what has happened just as they were unaware of what they were/are doing. When you see the odd one indicate and pull over behind you it is hard to avoid a feeling of smugness that perhaps learning has occurred.

It also definitely seems a trend that middle lane hogs are as others have pointed out, private hire vehicles with drivers from minorities. This trend does seem to reverse improvements in the last couple of decades. I assume we reocgnise other nation’s licences hence many have probably not passed here. That may be a poor policy.

 

[Bald Rick]

It also definitely seems a trend that middle lane hogs are as others have pointed out, private hire vehicles

No doubt that some drivers with poor lane discipline are private hire drivers, but in my experience they are a minority. I see all sorts of people doing. One thing I do notice is the type of car they are driving. Often japanese brands, or Mercs. Rarely will you see an Audi or Skoda or Ford. That’s just my experience.

 

[Efini92]

They should improve the B test and I agree about the hire and reward.
There should also be recertification every so many years.
It’s crazy when you think you can pass the driving test at 17 then the next check will be when you turn 70.

 

[corfield]

No doubt that some drivers with poor lane discipline are private hire drivers, but in my experience they are a minority. I see all sorts of people doing. One thing I do notice is the type of car they are driving. Often japanese brands, or Mercs. Rarely will you see an Audi or Skoda or Ford. That’s just my experience.

Mercs have always been terrible drivers who passivlry hog the road, it seems to be something about the type of people who buy them that the road really was built for them alone. (BMW/Audi drivers by contraat actively hog the road…)

The Japanese brands are bought by very cost conscious types who care little for brand - they also tend to be poor motorway drivers but I think that is more lack of experience and often a foreign background which is basically the same thing.

Generalisations sure but absent data that is what this topic is about.


The other issue with poor motorway driving is the failure to accelerate back to speed quickly in congestion once traffic gets moving. The sheer number of people who let 100-200m gaps open up in front of them as they continue to toddle along is staggering. It is quite litterally them causing the tailback behind them which is enitrely unnesecary if they maintained a usual spacing and accelerated forward to let the line behind do the same.

Or the idiots who on a slip lane come to a complete halt with half the lane remaining as they nose out into and completely stop the lane they are joining. Something about smoothly slipping in with minimal of disturbance just seems beyond them. Although they are going to be holding hands in hell with those who are on the inside lane but who slow/stop/chaotically pull out in front of others in outer lanes as they see people joining ahead of them. As what those people joining really need of course is for the cars they are trying to sequence into, to change what they are doing just as it is very difficult to see/assess that. Just continuing at their speed and letting the joiners do their thing is the best option for all but an excessive and ill advised sense of “politeness” seems to demand some people cause distraction and risk to everyone.

 

[Lost property]

My understanding of case law is that with regards to undertaking, it is permissable to continue in your current lane upto the legal speed limit.*

If that means passing some twunt in “outer” lanes doing 5-15mph slower then so be it. I’ve done it with a cop car behind, just cruised past and stayed in my lane for a fair old while, the cop car did the same.

*which is the catch, as tbh it is rare to be able to really undertake and actually be under 70.


This behaviour does my head in, whether I’m using cruise control or driving “full manual” I drive at a constant speed and only adjust (downwards) if something is blocking me.

Having overtaken something doing 2-10mph slower only for them to speed up and come past me and then slow back to their original difference and mean I have to go through it all again is very anoying - and incredibly distracting to constantly having to plan such additional overtakes on top of all the other interactions and assessments of cars. I dont give a monkey’s about being in front or behind car X per se, I just want to get somewhere at the speed I’m trying to travel at, so either go in front or behind but make your ruddy mind up.

I must admit just doing 90+ in the outside lane is vastly less stressful, you are going past everything and you control when and how and then its done. None of the “are they catching/dropping” or “when should I pull out/in” or “how much risk is there of getting stuck if I dont move now” internal monologue. Also better in rain as it gets a tiny fraction of the spray and often you can be wipers off vs wipers max even a few metres to the left such is the kick up of spray from HGVs on the inside.

I think a lot of outer lanes cruising is people tired of the endless mental calcualtions as to when/if they should pull in and lots of experience of then finding themselves blocked in by a solid stream materialising to their right.

“Move to the left if clear” is great, but define “clear”, noting the HA ads themselves dont.


You dont drive the M40 much I guess… seems to have relatively little HGV traffic on it so cars are (can be) better at keeping left. And hence the outside lane is free much more. It also seems laid out for high speed driving, I do wonder what much of it’s design speed actually was.

I also do and have always driven the M1&6 a lot, 90+ cruising is eminently possible outside of actual congestion nearly all the time. 73/70 in the outside lane would see a fairly constant stream of people build up behind you… I’ve just got back from a trip where I set the cruise to 77 and I spent most of that in the middle lanes being overtaken.

I agree with the OP that with a significant speed differential then undertaking with a wide berth and a preparadness to go left is pretty easy. I suspect most hogs remain unaware of what has happened just as they were unaware of what they were/are doing. When you see the odd one indicate and pull over behind you it is hard to avoid a feeling of smugness that perhaps learning has occurred.

It also definitely seems a trend that middle lane hogs are as others have pointed out, private hire vehicles with drivers from minorities. This trend does seem to reverse improvements in the last couple of decades. I assume we reocgnise other nation’s licences hence many have probably not passed here. That may be a poor policy.

Would it be reasonable to say, that, you've never read the RTA in your life....or, that you feel you have the advanced driving skills / training to drive at excessively high speeds or have an exemption from the RTA ?

I understand the attraction of speed, Vne in a glider in ground effect for example, or backseating in a FJ....but NOT, in the company of other road users on a public road. If you want to drive at speed, either turn professional, or, have a day out on a track.

But your last paragraph is even more interesting. Apart from being racist, how, given the speeds you claim to drive at, can you identify the demographic you allege (incorrectly) are middle lane hoggers. In my experience, both the vehicles and drivers cover a very broad spectrum.

As for the "endless mental calculations ", assuming the cognitive development allows these in the first place, they are hardly complex...M S M. is pretty basic after all.

 

[corfield]

Would it be reasonable to say, that, you've never read the RTA in your life....or, that you feel you have the advanced driving skills / training to drive at excessively high speeds or have an exemption from the RTA ?

The RTA being a common term of course and I’m sure you’ve read whatever it is cover to cover. Just hopefully not whilst you were driving…

I understand the attraction of speed, Vne in a glider in ground effect for example, or backseating in a FJ....but NOT, in the company of other road users on a public road. If you want to drive at speed, either turn professional, or, have a day out on a track.

Lovely bit of concocted outrage but you probably need to read my posts again and this time with the antifreeze out of reach.

Having spent a lot of time seated in fast jets (and every other type of aircraft) by the way, there is very little sensation of speed. To be sure its nice to see cumbria turn into cymru whilst supercruising down the irish sea corridor, but it feels virtually indistinguishable from any other speed. It’s just a number and frankly you get a lot more time up there with a much smaller number.

The thrill of flying is not speed, which is as above, merely a number, but that you are flying. You may not be able to hear the birds twittering about “windspeed, wingspans, power-to-weight…”* but regardless of the many hours spent up there, it remains utterly cool.


*with apols to the late great Douglas Adams

But your last paragraph is even more interesting. Apart from being racist, how, given the speeds you claim to drive at, can you identify the demographic you allege (incorrectly) are middle lane hoggers.

Does your car not have windows?

See my point ref generalisations. But lovely “RACIST” catcall. Event have of coruse shown that cancelling debate is a really good idea with no negative outcomes ever.

In my experience, both the vehicles and drivers cover a very broad spectrum.

As for the "endless mental calculations ", assuming the cognitive development allows these in the first place, they are hardly complex...M S M. is pretty basic after all.

Don’t believe me if you wish, but it is just far less complex and stressful to drive past everything with a speed differential you control, than try and drive with everything and all the in/out thinking, especislly if you are analysing every single vehicle all the time. When you do a lot of miles that does make a difference whether you like it or not.

As I stated, I think most lane hogs do this because they find changing lane stressful, have lots of bad experiences of pulling in to become stuck and as others commented in this very thread - changing lane is inherantly a higher risk so avoid doing it.
So clearly not everyone is at your self declared high state of cognitive ability. Perhaps empathise with that?

MSM being main stream media I presume… although I cant see what that has to do with it.

 

[OscarH]

time for average speed cameras (to cut down on lane changing and overtaking)

I actually find these (or the camera every x gantries) make motorways far more problematic in this regard. They tend to cause horrendous bunching amoungst the traffic with terrible stopping distance, lots of time in people's blind spots because everyone is overtaking in the 0.1mph difference between their cruise control (if you can even use it because of a car varying ±5mph because they're driving by hand).

Frankly I find a motorway with 56-70-85 speeds in each lane far safer than 56-70-70.1

 

[sprunt]

MSM being main stream media I presume… although I cant see what that has to do with it.

Mirror, signal, manoeuvre. A pretty basic term that everyone learns on day one. Too basic for you probably.

 

[Peter Sarf]

In what way is the previous poster’s driving arrogant? Whilst the safety aspects of undertaking are certainly debatable, he is well within his rights to be irritated at having to cross from lane 1 to 3 and back to pass someone who is incorrectly positioned.

And if it was a two-lane road then what is he supposed to do? Sit there all day and effectively form a roadblock?

Furthermore coaches and lorries are not permitted in lane three apparently.

I don’t enjoy doing it in the late evening when I’ve been at work for the day, and just want to get home as painlessly as possible. I can well understand why the previous poster finds it irritating. That said, I won’t undertake in that situation.

What we get on the A1M is a variation on the theme, where the doltz isn’t in lane 2, but doing 60 mph in lane 3 of an otherwise empty road. That’s an even worse display of lacking self-awareness, but seems increasingly common. In fact I can pretty much guarantee to see it at least one during an evening journey home.




Agreed. However if anything people seem to want to change lanes *more* in that situation. In a lot of cases changing lane achieves nothing, I’m sure people do it not for any practical reason but simply because they think they are missing out on something. Just like in my road there is an old guy who seems to always want to park in a specific space, and the only apparent reason for it seems to be that it’s where others park - and the only reason those others do it is for the convenience of having their own cars together, not because the space is superior in any way.

I have a friend who hates people swapping lanes in very slow moving traffic, notices them going back and forth for no benefit. Then he does it !. He even reminds me to change lanes when I am driving. I will change if I am behind a lorry or other large vehicle just to improve the view, though often if I leave a big enough gap someone obliges by filling it !.

Did you actually read what he wrote ?...such as driving with his hand on the horn as he undertakes, or not wishing to interact with drivers in lane 3...if you can't comply with basic overtaking techniques, and behave the way he claims, then you aren't a competent driver.

And how can he cause a road block on a two lane road when he can be overtaken by anybody who wishes to do so ?

The horn is not an angry button.

It is there to alert others to your presence.

Rush hour is different as the road is more likely to be running at or near capacity. What is simply unacceptable is having people sat in the middle or third lanes of an empty motorway at 2200 in the evening, which is what I’m increasingly seeing happening round my way. In fact I can guarantee encountering several of these now on my journey home from work. They should be spot-fined as a priority, as it demonstrates a total lack of attention to the task in hand.



Agreed. Loss of employment is essentially tough luck for something that’s entirely within their gift. When their poor driving causes an accident someone else may also lose their employment for completely different reasons, and beyond their control, and that’s what we should be striving to prevent by getting bad drivers off the road.

I agree. If the drivers misdemeanour is such that other innocent victims might be caused similar hardship then it tough on the offender. I might want to be be lenient but not on repeat offenders.

I can see arguments both ways on that - however if it's possible to "undertake" you (i.e. pass on the left) while correctly* leaving stopping distances then you're in the wrong lane.

* BMW practice of doing so without leaving appropriate stopping distances does not count.

I agree. If someone can undertake then the person being undertaken would have had time and space to move over and back out.

I think one of the most dangerous actions taken on a motorway is to change lane; that is not to say never change lane, but be very careful when you do. For example, beware of vehicles in lanes 1 and 3 both trying to move into lane 2 at the same time.

Re 'undertaking', is it alright to be in lane 1 passing vehicles going slower in lanes 3 and 4?

Lastly, something that annoys me is when you pull out to overtake a vehicle going slower than you, who then accelerates so you have to pull back in. Why do vehicles suddenly change speed? Are they just not paying attention, are they looking at their texts, or are they distracted by their on board video displays trying to adust their climate control etc.

Yes changing lanes does involve calculations. I also notice a risk of changing from lane 1 to lane 2 is as someone else is going a lot faster comes from lane 3 to lane 2.

My default is to pass on the inside, and waft along the nearside lane encountering very little stress, and often little traffic. The speed differential between the Honda Jazz in the middle lane (constant 53mph) and the Audi S3 in the outside lane (119mph) means it's got to be safer to pass the Jazz on the inside. Of course, I don't linger in blind spots and prepare myself to dive onto the hard shoulder if the Jazz driver decides to pull-over without checking mirrors - but normally they're rooted to their lane, in their own little world.

I am not a lawyer etc, but on the basis the traffic cops remain passive whilst Grand Theft Auto standards of driving ensue around them, it seems unlikely they'd pull me for undertaking (at 65mph) Ronald in his Yaris, and charge me with a 'not specifically illegal' offence. And if they did, I guess this is the kind of thing that 'Mr Loophole' character would assist with!

I agree. I won't do it if there is no hard shoulder especially if there is a big concrete lump there !. I am ready for the horn if I think I am in their blind spot - not to be angry but to let them know I am there.

Mercs have always been terrible drivers who passivlry hog the road, it seems to be something about the type of people who buy them that the road really was built for them alone. (BMW/Audi drivers by contraat actively hog the road…)

The Japanese brands are bought by very cost conscious types who care little for brand - they also tend to be poor motorway drivers but I think that is more lack of experience and often a foreign background which is basically the same thing.

Generalisations sure but absent data that is what this topic is about.


The other issue with poor motorway driving is the failure to accelerate back to speed quickly in congestion once traffic gets moving. The sheer number of people who let 100-200m gaps open up in front of them as they continue to toddle along is staggering. It is quite litterally them causing the tailback behind them which is enitrely unnesecary if they maintained a usual spacing and accelerated forward to let the line behind do the same.

Or the idiots who on a slip lane come to a complete halt with half the lane remaining as they nose out into and completely stop the lane they are joining. Something about smoothly slipping in with minimal of disturbance just seems beyond them. Although they are going to be holding hands in hell with those who are on the inside lane but who slow/stop/chaotically pull out in front of others in outer lanes as they see people joining ahead of them. As what those people joining really need of course is for the cars they are trying to sequence into, to change what they are doing just as it is very difficult to see/assess that. Just continuing at their speed and letting the joiners do their thing is the best option for all but an excessive and ill advised sense of “politeness” seems to demand some people cause distraction and risk to everyone.

I think one of the problems is that our motorways are too congested. There is still bad or inconsiderate behaviour though. If lane 1 is solid then the only way someone is going to be able to join at a junction is if they accelerate to a matching speed and hope some one lets them in by slowing a little or moving over into lane 2. I try to aim for lane 2 in these situations but it depends how busy lane 2 is. Of course any overreaction to slow down can lead to a halt and then even worse congestion.

I have sometimes elected to speed up to above the legal limit to get out of a lane someone needs.