"Mug punters" getting fleeced

[yorkie]

Traveled first offpeak day return Derby-Sheffield last week (with a railcard it’s only about a fiver more than standard, but full catering including breakfast roll one way and wrap the other was offered by EMR). Train manager, checking tickets, said: “Can I see your other tickets please.” “What other tickets?” I replied. “Oh, I presumed you were splitting. Not many people buy first just for that journey.” So some staff are very familiar with splitting, and almost assume its being done on some flows.

It's similar on XC.

I'm usually on XC (in standard) heading south from Sheffield, the guards typically ask any Derby ticket holders if they have any other tickets. Most do!

 

[sor]

Another angle to split tickets is not necessarily about saving money, but about advance availability. I can't get an advance for my A to C ticket but I can get advances for the same A to B and B to C trains, separately. How does that make any sense?

I trust you will be arguing against supermarket loyalty cards, sites which make it easy to change your electricity provider, etc. Perhaps you are wistful for the day when you had a single phone provider and a 6 month wait for them to deliver a Standard Approved Rotary Phone.

Those examples all have downsides, though

• there *is* pushback against "clubcard deals" and the copycat schemes that all retailers have adopted - the lowest price for food being tied to permission to collect data.
• we're paying for the cost of "competition" in the energy sector, as the costs of the failed suppliers are being recouped through our standing charges, even if we didn't use one of the more reckless firms
• people generally dislike having to negotiate with their phone company to get the cost back down, especially when it's due to some inflation-linked measure that has no connection to the costs of actually delivering the service. They hate it even more when they have to sign up elsewhere and deal with the disruption of getting the new service installed.
  • The wait for a phone was less about the monopoly and more about the technology of the day, and the state owned GPO was already modernising in ways that BT would continue to do. At a technical level one could question whether four (possibly soon to be three) overlapping mobile networks is a good use of limited resources, or whether the same streets need to be dug up over and over again for fibre internet.

Much like rail ticketing, all are needless overcomplications of things that used to be simpler. however, none of those businesses receive anywhere near the sort of subsidy or control that GB franchised rail does. Why shouldn't we expect a system that's easier to use and doesn't require niche knowledge to get the best price?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Journeys are priced like any other market product based on things like capacity, demand etc.

The pricing sometimes looks illogical. Take a journey which is from staion A to station B via transport hub station C. Why should the A to B single fare not be equal to the sum of the A to C fare and the C to B fare, instead of greater than it? There's arbitrage as well with no consistent definition of "super off peak" and "off peak" across franchises.

 

[yorksrob]

But rail travel is not the actual “product”. It is about getting from A to B with rail being but one option. There are also, variously, buses/coaches, cars and planes depending what the journey is.

For a lot of journeys it is the key public transport mode. Think of London to Dorset or the Kent coast as examples.

 

[43096]

For a lot of journeys it is the key public transport mode. Think of London to Dorset or the Kent coast as examples.

The key words there being “public transport”. The car is the obvious competitor.

 

[yorksrob]

The key words there being “public transport”. The car is the obvious competitor.

Not if you don't drive it isn't.

 

[43096]

Not if you don't drive it isn't.

The majority of people do, though.

 

[trainophile]

The majority of people do, though.

That's a rather wild assumption. I don't drive, for one. There are cars in the family but not everyone wants to drive them. Pensioners who let their licence lapse at age 70 and are in any case nervous of the roads these days do rely on public transport.

 

[Haywain]

That's a rather wild assumption.

It's not a wild assumption, it's true. I don't drive either but that doesn't alter that the majority do.

 

[signed]

That's a rather wild assumption.

UK Gov states 88% of all the billions of km done in the country are done by car, vans or taxis

 

[jayah]

Unfortunately, without a political commitment at government level to make rail fares more affordable for passengers, no amount of "simplification" will make fares cheaper.

In Fact, the the latest attempt at "simplification" by LNER has managed to make some fares both more complicated and more expensive.

Outside London & SE fares are artificially inflated by monopoly pricing, because they were not properly regulated post privatisation, while both capacity and demand are also artificially constrained.

Cut long distance peak fares - lose money and cause crowding in the short term.

Cut long distance off peak fares - needs longer trains.

Mandatory reservation - volatile prices and less flexibility.

Fewer Railcards and discount schemes - less segmentation and lower revenue.

The way to fix this is fewer, longer trains with more total capacity and cheaper, simpler fares.

Even if it worked it would cost a lot in rolling stock investment and see a large short term revenue loss.

Until then you'll just get never ending 'trials' of lower prices and new convoluted ticket structures.

 

[trainophile]

Whatever happened to the campaign to reduce the country's carbon footprint? Oh I remember, I guess electric cars are supposed to be the solution that. It still means a couple of people per vehicle rather than a couple of hundred on a train.

 

[Starmill]

That's a rather wild assumption. I don't drive, for one. There are cars in the family but not everyone wants to drive them. Pensioners who let their licence lapse at age 70 and are in any case nervous of the roads these days do rely on public transport.

81% of people live in a household with car access. It's not a wild assumption, it's reality.

And that's from someone who has chosen never to own a private vehicle.

Whatever happened to the campaign to reduce the country's carbon footprint?

The tory voters did. But unfortunately that's well off topic here.

 

[infobleep]

UK Gov states 88% of all the billions of km done in the country are done by car, vans or taxis

I wonder what percentage of that is by taxi and/or van.

Personally I do whatever I find is cheapest because I enjoy the fun of trying to find the cheapest fare.

Sometimes I even start and finish short or I combine that kind of ticket with another one for a longer journey.

I see it as a game of cat and mouse. I'm the mouse and the TOCs are the cats.

I do it because a, I can save money and b, I'm fascinated by the fact one can save money.

 

[Starmill]

The rational consumer has a reservation price and will pay any price at or below that level, but they will not pay any old price just because it is below their reservation price. Not if they're aware they can obtain a similar or identical product or service at a cheaper price.

Exactly. It's naive to think otherwise. Consumers do this all the time, because not to do so is counter to their own interests.

A good example of this is the sandwich chain Pret. I used to buy a sandwich from there every now and again, say perhaps two or three per month on average. Then Pret created a "walled garden" by adding discounts in two steps to subscription holders currently £30 a month and 20% lower price on all food and packaged drink, with the lower price touted on the labels in the shop. I went down from buying a sandwich there every now and again to never buying one, except for during the trial half price subscription phase when I bought several per week.

Could I afford the sandwiches? Well they were always amongst the highest priced lunch options around by some way, so not really, but they worked great as an occasional treat. But now I know the "real" price is reserved for a walled garden of customers with a subscription, I won't bother. Pret actually reduced the headline prices of some of the baguettes recently, which I guess is partly in response to this phenomenon of occasional customers being given a strong message that they're being overcharged.

 

[yorksrob]

81% of people live in a household with car access. It's not a wild assumption, it's reality.

That doesn't mean to say that everyone in that household has access to the car all of the time.

The majority of people do, though.

If it is a majority, I wouldn't assume that it's a large one.

 

[alistairlees]

That doesn't mean to say that everyone in that household has access to the car all of the time.



If it is a majority, I wouldn't assume that it's a large one.

According to the DfT, in 2022:
- 75% of adults aged 17 or over had a driving licence
- that's 34.6million people

 

[redreni]

Exactly. It's naive to think otherwise. Consumers do this all the time, because not to do so is counter to their own interests.

A good example of this is the sandwich chain Pret. I used to buy a sandwich from there every now and again, say perhaps two or three per month on average. Then Pret created a "walled garden" by adding discounts in two steps to subscription holders currently £30 a month and 20% lower price on all food and packaged drink, with the lower price touted on the labels in the shop. I went down from buying a sandwich there every now and again to never buying one, except for during the trial half price subscription phase when I bought several per week.

Could I afford the sandwiches? Well they were always amongst the highest priced lunch options around by some way, so not really, but they worked great as an occasional treat. But now I know the "real" price is reserved for a walled garden of customers with a subscription, I won't bother. Pret actually reduced the headline prices of some of the baguettes recently, which I guess is partly in response to this phenomenon of occasional customers being given a strong message that they're being overcharged.

Yeah, this is the weakness of the physical shop where the prices are on display to everyone.

The whole game with online sales is profiling each person, working out what they might be willing to pay and offering them a price accordingly. One doesn't see the cheaper prices - seeing the cheaper price makes it more difficult to be happy with the price one has paid.

It's not so easy to hide the cheaper rail fares by profiling individuals, but we have ended up with a system where, whether by accident or design, the cheapest fares can be quite difficult to find.

 

[trainophile]

According to the DfT, in 2022:
- 75% of adults aged 17 or over had a driving licence
- that's 34.6million people

I've got a driving licence, it's useful for ID instead of taking my passport. Doesn't mean I drive though these days, and also having a driving licence doesn't equate to owning or having access to a car.

 

[Starmill]

Yeah, this is the weakness of the physical shop where the prices are on display to everyone.

The whole game with online sales is profiling each person, working out what they might be willing to pay and offering them a price accordingly. One doesn't see the cheaper prices - seeing the cheaper price makes it more difficult to be happy with the price one has paid.

It's not so easy to hide the cheaper rail fares by profiling individuals, but we have ended up with a system where, whether by accident or design, the cheapest fares can be quite difficult to find.

Exactly. The consumer suspects widely that a cheaper deal is out there, somewhere. Whether there actually is or not becomes a bit moot once you get such a low level of trust.

I've got a driving licence, it's useful for ID instead of taking my passport. Doesn't mean I drive though these days, and also having a driving licence doesn't equate to owning or having access to a car.

And yet you used to drive? Something I chose not to do. What might have driven your decision there?

 

[yorksrob]

According to the DfT, in 2022:
- 75% of adults aged 17 or over had a driving licence
- that's 34.6million people

They won't all have a car or access to a car all of the time though.

 

[Krokodil]

Do people who are not rail nuts think splitting is a bit dodgy? Or could cause them inconvenience or embarrasement?

Quite a few do end up with the latter when they didn't read the small print and the split is not valid for their return journey - return train doesn't call at the split point, or the "Open Return" Trainline sold them is actually a combination of a Day Return and a Period Return. I had a passenger insist that I sell her tickets at the price Trainline quoted, even though she wouldn't be returning on the same day and I pointed out that the split involved a Day Return. At least in her case the combination of the split and a new single for the expired section would be little more than the through Period Return anyway, so she wouldn't actually be out of pocket.

Journeys are priced like any other market product based on things like capacity, demand etc.

I can't say that I credit the commercial team with that much sense to be honest. Not when they persist in flogging dirt-cheap advances for "full, standing, and pax left behind" trains.

I've got a driving licence, it's useful for ID instead of taking my passport. Doesn't mean I drive though these days, and also having a driving licence doesn't equate to owning or having access to a car.

But you do have the choice to switch to a car, if you wanted to. Which means that the railway risks losing you as a customer if it pushes you too hard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Exactly. It's naive to think otherwise. Consumers do this all the time, because not to do so is counter to their own interests.

A good example of this is the sandwich chain Pret. I used to buy a sandwich from there every now and again, say perhaps two or three per month on average. Then Pret created a "walled garden" by adding discounts in two steps to subscription holders currently £30 a month and 20% lower price on all food and packaged drink, with the lower price touted on the labels in the shop. I went down from buying a sandwich there every now and again to never buying one, except for during the trial half price subscription phase when I bought several per week.

Could I afford the sandwiches? Well they were always amongst the highest priced lunch options around by some way, so not really, but they worked great as an occasional treat. But now I know the "real" price is reserved for a walled garden of customers with a subscription, I won't bother. Pret actually reduced the headline prices of some of the baguettes recently, which I guess is partly in response to this phenomenon of occasional customers being given a strong message that they're being overcharged.

Great explanation.

Passengers really do want simpler and easier to understand fares - it's been a long held view of mine that true simplicity and fairness should trump the defence of an arcane, Byzantine system where some power users benefit to the detriment of everyone else.

A view from many customers that the "real" price the railway will tolerate selling a product for is hidden or concealed serves only to make the system seem unfair, and lowers consumer appetite.

 

[akm]

Exactly. It's naive to think otherwise. Consumers do this all the time, because not to do so is counter to their own interests.

A good example of this is the sandwich chain Pret. I used to buy a sandwich from there every now and again, say perhaps two or three per month on average. Then Pret created a "walled garden" by adding discounts in two steps to subscription holders currently £30 a month and 20% lower price on all food and packaged drink, with the lower price touted on the labels in the shop. I went down from buying a sandwich there every now and again to never buying one, except for during the trial half price subscription phase when I bought several per week.

Could I afford the sandwiches? Well they were always amongst the highest priced lunch options around by some way, so not really, but they worked great as an occasional treat. But now I know the "real" price is reserved for a walled garden of customers with a subscription, I won't bother. Pret actually reduced the headline prices of some of the baguettes recently, which I guess is partly in response to this phenomenon of occasional customers being given a strong message that they're being overcharged.

But presumably you're ok with, say, the Network Railcard, where a 'subscription holder' who pays £30 a year gets a 33% lower price on offpeak rail travel in the south east? Just as long as you aren't shown that 'real' price at the same time??

 

[Starmill]

But presumably you're ok with, say, the Network Railcard, where a 'subscription holder' who pays £30 a year gets a 33% lower price on offpeak rail travel in the south east? Just as long as you aren't shown that 'real' price at the same time??

No. I'd be getting the same or better deal than a Network Railcard holder would be.

I wasn't saying nobody pays the higher price for a sandwich or I'm "not OK with" that though. All I was saying was it's very common for the end consumer to think that way. Plenty of people contrastingly do also prioritise convenience and speed first and foremost, and price little.

 

[redreni]

But presumably you're ok with, say, the Network Railcard, where a 'subscription holder' who pays £30 a year gets a 33% lower price on offpeak rail travel in the south east? Just as long as you aren't shown that 'real' price at the same time??

No. I'd be getting the same or better deal than a Network Railcard holder would be.

I wasn't saying nobody pays the higher price for a sandwich or I'm "not OK with" that though. All I was saying was it's very common for the end consumer to think that way. Plenty of people contrastingly do also prioritise convenience and speed first and foremost, and price little.

The case of the Pret loyalty card and the Network Railcard are similar in that you pay to get a discount, and whether it's worth it depends how much of the product or service you will buy.

In the case of loyalty cards you pay with your personal data, whereas with Railcards you pay with money. I prefer the latter, to be honest.

I'm a bit torn on whether making people pay to get a discount on the train is a good or a bad thing. I know Gareth Dennis, for example, will tell you it's bad because you have to be able to afford the railcard, so the people who need the discount the most may not be able to afford to get it. But on the other hand, once you've bought a railcard you will then be motivated to at least check train times and fares and to consider public transport before making a journey - I think it can have value in changing people's habits and preventing them just defaulting to driving everywhere. I would certainly be opposed to any move to increase railcard prices, even if only by inflation.

 

[yorksrob]

The case of the Pret loyalty card and the Network Railcard are similar in that you pay to get a discount, and whether it's worth it depends how much of the product or service you will buy.

In the case of loyalty cards you pay with your personal data, whereas with Railcards you pay with money. I prefer the latter, to be honest.

I'm a bit torn on whether making people pay to get a discount on the train is a good or a bad thing. I know Gareth Dennis, for example, will tell you it's bad because you have to be able to afford the railcard, so the people who need the discount the most may not be able to afford to get it. But on the other hand, once you've bought a railcard you will then be motivated to at least check train times and fares and to consider public transport before making a journey - I think it can have value in changing people's habits and preventing them just defaulting to driving everywhere. I would certainly be opposed to any move to increase railcard prices, even if only by inflation.

Of course, anyone can obtain a pret loyalty card, whereas rail customers are discriminated against by age.

 

[dosbod stuey]

Do people who are not rail nuts think splitting is a bit dodgy? Or could cause them inconvenience or embarrasement?
Cant say I have discussed it outside the rail community.

You might be surprised what you overhear when you start talking about industries that aren't always the most popular.

Take the energy industry and people submitting low meter reads at the end of a high-price period, then letting their meter read "catch up" during a lower-price period.

I don't know what it's short-hand name is called, but I have heard "normies" refer to booking a short extension to a rail journey which they may not intend to use, where the short extension is just within the regulated change time at a station but an irregular train. Making an original two minutes delay on a long expensive journey a 1-hour or more delay for full Delay Repay.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It happens in most retail enviroments If I'd bought our last car from Audi instead of via Drive the Deal it would have cost around £5k more. Not an excuse but rail isn't unique here.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I think a lot of people claim to want simpler prices but the reality is different. Even Lidl is doing app only discounts these days.

When I am paying I often do split tickets. But when I’m travelling for work I’m not bothering with that, I don’t get the savings and might get some raised eyebrows when I submit my expenses. Plus on a long trip I want the same reserved seat all the way.