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Multiple Working, progression or regresion

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edwin_m

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So we shouldn't have introduced autocouplers for the sake of not being backwards compatible? :roll:

That's an example of how standardisation sometimes impedes technical progress.

Perhaps the units in question should have had autocoupler connections paralleled by separate jumpers - but that would have cost money for no short-term benefit.
 
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D365

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Perhaps the units in question should have had autocoupler connections paralleled by separate jumpers - but that would have cost money for no short-term benefit.

Like I said above, the BR Second Generation EMUs of the 80s became a substantial fleet in their own right - Tightlock couplings were the standard.
 

bramling

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The 16 365s were a smaller fleet that went to join the remaining 24 at Great Northern, so no issue with compatibility there. And the 30 350/1s were a whole new design so I doubt they could have been made compatible with the 321s.

Indeed - they're both tenuous examples but are the best I can think of...

As regards 365s, compatibility with 317s/321s might have been useful at times on GN. 365 and 317 could certainly work together but not in passenger service. I presume same applied to 365 and 321, but I never recall seeing this.

Once I remember waiting at King's Cross for an ECS to arrive for an early morning down service, which was going to be front 4 cars only. The ECS duly appeared as a 317, I then looked away for few moments and upon turning back round had to do a double take upon finding a 365 in front of me! Only ever had this happen once, but it was certainly technically possible.

I can think of a few occasions, mainly during disruption, when a short train has had to suffice because the wrong type or types of train have happened to be at King's Cross. There are other factors besides couplings of course.
 
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PeterC

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Funny how in some industries compatibility is considered to "impede technical progress" while in others it is considered essential.
 

D365

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Once I remember waiting at King's Cross for an ECS to arrive for an early morning down service, which was going to be front 4 cars only. The ECS duly appeared as a 317, I then looked away for few moments and upon turning back round had to do a double take upon finding a 365 in front of me! Only ever had this happen once, but it was certainly technically possible.

So they were coupled mechanically just for the ECS movement?
 

bramling

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So they were coupled just for the ECS movement?

Yes, 2x317 coupled to 1x365 all arriving ECS, the 365 being detached upon arrival at KX.

Actually I have been on a 1x365 + 1x317 formation in service, but only with the 365 rescuing a defective 317, with the whole train being taken out of service at the next available station.

I have heard it said that 317 & 322 worked together in service on GN in WAGN days very occasionally, but I never saw this myself.
 

grid56126

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I have heard it said that 317 & 322 worked together in service on GN in WAGN days very occasionally, but I never saw this myself.

There was a booked 317/2 + 322 formation on the 16.22 (or 16.21?) Kings Cross to Peterborough for at least one timetable period. (Monday to Friday).
 

D365

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I believe Anglia (under BR) used to run 317s and 321s in multiple, on occasion.
 

jopsuk

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Why did the EMUs and DMUs of the time get such a different "standard" coupler?
 

61653 HTAFC

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The situation with second generation DMUs seems somewhat bizarre.

Class 150, 153, 155, 156, 158 and 159 can all work in multiple with each other, and also with class 142, 143, 144, 170 and 172. However class 142, 143 and 144 can't work in multiple with class 170 or 172.

In addition, class 170 and 172 (but not 150 to 159) can work in multiple with class 165 and 166.
Class 165 and 166 (but not 170 and 172) can work in multiple with class 168.

I imagine that if required, a 170 could haul a 14x dead-in-train, subject to brake force being adequate. It just hasn't ever been needed. I wasn't aware that 170s could work with 165s/166s though, as aren't the electrical connectors on the former NSE units deliberately set up differently? I think that's why the ex-TPE 170s were converted to 168.
 

coppercapped

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Why did the EMUs and DMUs of the time get such a different "standard" coupler?

Hmm! A lot has got lost in the depths of time, but I'll try my best! (This is all based on publicly published information - I have no inside knowledge).

Firstly, there was no imperative for DMUs and EMUs to run coupled together. There were some diesel islands in electric seas and vice versa but no timetabled interoperation excluding, of course, the Bournemouth - Weymouth trains.

This meant that coupler standardisation was not high on the wish list. Autocouplers were desired, to avoid shunters having to get between the trains to couple or separate units such as the old 'Blue Square' system which involved making or breaking seven (including the screw coupling) connections. The first opportunity after the Modernisation plan units had all been built was the Class 141 Pacers and for these the BSI autocoupler was adopted. It was light and there was at that point no intention to run in multiple with the older stock - the Pacers were intended for lightly trafficed secondary routes. For these lightweight trains avoiding having to cart round 4 heavy buffers was also an advantage. This coupler was found to work and was then carried through to the 15X and 16X series trains.

Many, if not most, EMUs had, by the early 1970 Buckeyes at the ends, but with manual connection of the air lines and electrical jumpers. The Tightlock is, essentially, a Buckeye with gathering horns (please excuse the simplification!) so the electrical and air lines can be connected semi-automatically but without a shunter having to get between the sets.

The Tightlock's disadvantages are that it is heavy and needs, like the Buckeye, to be banged together to couple. The Scharfenberg/Dellner system uses small actuators to make the mechanical connection so the impact is reduced, but it does have limitations as to the traction and braking force it can transmit. The advantages for multiple units were such that practically all post-privatisation stock has been fitted, or retro-fitted, with it, including the new CAF sleepers. The one pity is that there has been no standardisation of the placement and pin allocation in the electrical connections. It may be that now fly-by-wire has become commonplace the various approaches taken by the different manufacturers might lead to at least some of the pins being common among the manufacturers even if the protocols used by other pins may vary. One could now imagine a situation whereby trains from different manufacturers 'negotiate' the non-safety-critical pin allocations and protocols just as Plug-and-Play does for computers now.

As older stock gets retired the mechanical incompatibilities will reduce, even if not all the systems talk to each other. In any event as rolling stock becomes more reliable - see the Golden Spanners - the need to join incompatible trains will also reduce.
 

43096

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Hmm! A lot has got lost in the depths of time, but I'll try my best! (This is all based on publicly published information - I have no inside knowledge).

Firstly, there was no imperative for DMUs and EMUs to run coupled together. There were some diesel islands in electric seas and vice versa but no timetabled interoperation excluding, of course, the Bournemouth - Weymouth trains.

This meant that coupler standardisation was not high on the wish list. Autocouplers were desired, to avoid shunters having to get between the trains to couple or separate units such as the old 'Blue Square' system which involved making or breaking seven (including the screw coupling) connections. The first opportunity after the Modernisation plan units had all been built was the Class 141 Pacers and for these the BSI autocoupler was adopted. It was light and there was at that point no intention to run in multiple with the older stock - the Pacers were intended for lightly trafficed secondary routes. For these lightweight trains avoiding having to cart round 4 heavy buffers was also an advantage. This coupler was found to work and was then carried through to the 15X and 16X series trains.

The 141s did not have BSI couplers when built, they were modified later to make them compatible with the production Pacers. As built they had separate jumpers and hoses and a different form of coupler (not exactly sure what type - it looks a bit like some form of Tightlock).
 

D7666

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deleted while I edit and clarify some of it

--
Nick
 
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randyrippley

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If the DfT were to mandate a multiple working system it would significantly drive up the price of rolling stock.......

How do you work that out?
Establishing a single technology with economy of scale would SAVE money. Even more would be saved in reduction of spares needed, and rationalisation of repairs
 

randyrippley

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Where units have been specified to work in multiple they work together.
1st gen DMUs had five different multiple working standards (hydraulic, mechanical, derby lightweight x2, class 126).

I'd be almost certain that it would be possible to (with a heck of a lot of cost) get the 375, 377 and 387 fleets to all play nice together, and even have the DV ones be able to work with the 379s.

It just isn't worth it.

but the non-standard fleets were scrapped very quickly, leaving just one type
 

Crossover

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The thing about 142's and 170's, was it this class or another whereby they couldn't work together mainly because the buzzer circuit on one was different to the other, meaning the buzzer sounded permanently?
 

dubscottie

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The class 210 could haul 317s as a trailer set.

Virgin made the 220/221/390 compatible for rescue purposes and that is why 220/1 & 222 can't work together.

If Virgin/Alstolm/Bombardier could do it then, why not now?
 

dubscottie

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What do you mean? What types of unit do you want to be able to 'rescue' each other?

In theory, with the apparent standardisation on Dellner type couplings, someone should make sure they are at the same height and air connections, basic brake functions are the same.

For example, I believe a 171 can haul a 377 and vice versa.

Could a IEP push a failed Thameslink unit into a loop? Same couplers but are the basics compatible?

Sure Strawberry Hill got a old 501 to multiple with a Networker so its just lazy not doing it.
 

61653 HTAFC

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How do you work that out?
Establishing a single technology with economy of scale would SAVE money. Even more would be saved in reduction of spares needed, and rationalisation of repairs

I think it's time to post this again...

standards.png


Source of image: XKCD.com.
TITLE: How Standards Proliferate.
Frame 1: Situation- There are 14 competing standards.
Frame 2: Person one says "14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases." Person two agrees.
Frame 3: Soon... Situation- There are 15 competing standards.
 
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D365

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In theory, with the apparent standardisation on Dellner type couplings, someone should make sure they are at the same height and air connections, basic brake functions are the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the air connections are standardised.
 

edwin_m

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The class 210 could haul 317s as a trailer set.

The 210 could work in multiple with a 317 on electrified lines. As could the classic Southern EMUs, DEMUs, electro-diesels and a sub-class of class 33. Modern technology actually makes this more difficult, with systems proliferating that have to talk between units and the replacement of fairly simple pneumatic or analogue electric signals by digital data streams.
 

Roast Veg

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But it simply wouldn't be possible to control SDO on analogue or pneumatic transmission, nor would it be possible to control the PIS or transmit CCTV picture.
 

BestWestern

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Hmm! A lot has got lost in the depths of time, but I'll try my best! (This is all based on publicly published information - I have no inside knowledge).

Firstly, there was no imperative for DMUs and EMUs to run coupled together. There were some diesel islands in electric seas and vice versa but no timetabled interoperation excluding, of course, the Bournemouth - Weymouth trains.

This meant that coupler standardisation was not high on the wish list. Autocouplers were desired, to avoid shunters having to get between the trains to couple or separate units such as the old 'Blue Square' system which involved making or breaking seven (including the screw coupling) connections. The first opportunity after the Modernisation plan units had all been built was the Class 141 Pacers and for these the BSI autocoupler was adopted. It was light and there was at that point no intention to run in multiple with the older stock - the Pacers were intended for lightly trafficed secondary routes. For these lightweight trains avoiding having to cart round 4 heavy buffers was also an advantage. This coupler was found to work and was then carried through to the 15X and 16X series trains.

Many, if not most, EMUs had, by the early 1970 Buckeyes at the ends, but with manual connection of the air lines and electrical jumpers. The Tightlock is, essentially, a Buckeye with gathering horns (please excuse the simplification!) so the electrical and air lines can be connected semi-automatically but without a shunter having to get between the sets.

The Tightlock's disadvantages are that it is heavy and needs, like the Buckeye, to be banged together to couple. The Scharfenberg/Dellner system uses small actuators to make the mechanical connection so the impact is reduced, but it does have limitations as to the traction and braking force it can transmit. The advantages for multiple units were such that practically all post-privatisation stock has been fitted, or retro-fitted, with it, including the new CAF sleepers. The one pity is that there has been no standardisation of the placement and pin allocation in the electrical connections. It may be that now fly-by-wire has become commonplace the various approaches taken by the different manufacturers might lead to at least some of the pins being common among the manufacturers even if the protocols used by other pins may vary. One could now imagine a situation whereby trains from different manufacturers 'negotiate' the non-safety-critical pin allocations and protocols just as Plug-and-Play does for computers now.

As older stock gets retired the mechanical incompatibilities will reduce, even if not all the systems talk to each other. In any event as rolling stock becomes more reliable - see the Golden Spanners - the need to join incompatible trains will also reduce.

Fascinating info, copper, as always! One thing you don't mention though is the dreaded TMS. Regardless of physical coupler compatibility, is it not realistically the case that manfacturers appear to scupper any hope of common sense by using different software every time they build something?! A driver friend tells me that even different subclasses of Electrostar in the same fleet can't play together because their computers aren't friends. That seems utterly ludicrous, the Electrostar factory has surely been churning out essentially the same train for the past 15 years. And yet a Turbostar will talk to a Sprinter! Presumably the various manufacturers' TMS software creation is outsourced to a (the same?) third party provider? Or do the factories maintain their own software departments?
 
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edwin_m

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But it simply wouldn't be possible to control SDO on analogue or pneumatic transmission, nor would it be possible to control the PIS or transmit CCTV picture.

Exactly. More sophisticated trains need more complex interfaces, which makes it more difficult for trains from different suppliers to work together. Think of how many things have to be passed from unit to unit today, compared with something like a first-generation DMU.
 
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