My idea for a 24/7 Thameslink Cycle Ban

[Bletchleyite]

I would say its is much much more than that.

In what way? If a train of proper length is provided off-peak, there are enough seats for everyone and enough bicycle spaces. There is then no problem with everyone coexisting happily.

In the peak, cycles are rightly banned because trains are at maximum length and the space is needed for standees. But this should not be happening off-peak, as running 4-car sets off-peak in the SE is simple penny pinching.

 

[Taunton]

Are you serious? yes, reducing costs is part of the reason for shorter formations, but the comparison to your car is ridiculous. Trains can be doing hundreds of miles a day, carrying thousands of people. There are hundreds of components critical to safety on each unit, failure of which will at best mean the train is taken out of service.

What units are used on what services and when will be tightly specified in agreement with the DfT.

Having seen intending passengers unable to even board Thameslink northbound at East Croydon at 1100 on Saturday morning because the minimalist 4 car 319 arriving from Brighton was completely rammed, and then passed Selhurst depot crammed every siding with units sunning the weekend away, not being cleaned, not being maintained, I am indeed serious.

I believe the DfT specification of train length is principally for peak periods, otherwise operators are left to their own devices on formations.

 

[Wolfie]

What an intolerant society we have become when a relatively intelligent poster on here starts a thread effectively saying that anyone who inconveniences him should be banned from trains altogether!

My bold

While the text in bold is more than a little patronising I agree the broad thrust of the post...

Just caught the ( 4 car ) 23:55 N/B ex-West Hampstead and this train was rammed yet some idiots were insisting on their "right" to try and board with a bike. Can Thameslink start to wake up and impose a complete ban on cycles - this is the busiest rail route in Britain and the trains and traffic just can't take cycles, prams, wheelchairs - it just ain't practical in the real world.

My bold

I am amazed that everyone has focussed on cycles (presumably due to the thread title) and ignored this outrageous statement (namely sod the disabled). Suffice to say that I disagree, the Govt disagrees and the Courts would doubtless disagree were the TOC barking enough to try and go down that route....

Anyone else you want to ban ? fat people as they take up more space ? blind people as they insist on taking their dogs as well ? Wheel Chair Users.

The issue is with the TOC not providing enough capacity.

Spot on, at least in the off peak.

 

[hulabaloo]

Why not have cycle racks on the roof like you do on cars?

 

[Wolfie]

Why not have cycle racks on the roof like you do on cars?

Hum, think overhead power supply....

 

[Aictos]

Complete crap.

Couldn't agree further!!!

What a fascinating thought provoking analysis of the situation

But it's a accurate reply to what in my view was complete garbage!

 

[hulabaloo]

Hum, think overhead power supply....

I didn't think a wink was necessary after my post

 

[FordFocus]

I am amazed that everyone has focussed on cycles (presumably due to the thread title) and ignored this outrageous statement (namely sod the disabled). Suffice to say that I disagree, the Govt disagrees and the Courts would doubtless disagree were the TOC barking enough to try and go down that route....

I went through three pages thinking exactly the same thing and no one else mentioned this. Well done Wolfie.

Cycles in London are on the increase and is actively promoted by TfL. I doubt a ban outside of peak times will happen.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Actually I don't think it is the busiest rail route in Britain per see as that honour goes to the WCML

How do they define busy? Whenever I catch a train on the WCML about a large number of seats are reserved but no one ever sits in them. So is based on actual travellers, reserved seats, paid for seats or what?

As regards bikes on trains some of the fold-up bikes are taking the michael these days. They are just normal sized bikes that fold in half. There should be a rule that a fold up bike can only be carried if it fits in the overhead rack or luggage rack. Oh and on the Uckfield Line the luggage rack is only the lower level, as the top level is in reality a seat!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The difference between a wheelchair & bicycle is that a wheelchair is an essential, a bicycle is not.

I sling non folding cycles off the train where time permits it, the [censored] from Surbiton down know that they're not allowed on there, yet Surbiton barrier line does SFA about them and there's no one to stop them on intermediates, we get complaints but SWT does precisely nothing about them.

I've even caught one oink at Guildford hiding his bike in the toilet and when I told him to remove it, I got called a Charlie Uniform November Tango! The result he got slung not only off the train, but off the station as I was threatening to refuse to move a 12 car train with nearly 1000 people on it, until he was.

Personally I'd penalty fare them if they breach the peak time ban, a £20 fine for them a few times would do the trick. But will management ever have the gall or nerve to do it? I doubt it.

 

[Darandio]

They seem to cause rather a lot less trouble, even when inebriated, than people from certain towns in the North.

Indeed, all of us up here just love to cause trouble, it's a garden of roses, politeness and etiquette down south, isn't it.

 

[Aictos]

The difference between a wheelchair & bicycle is that a wheelchair is an essential, a bicycle is not.

I sling non folding cycles off the train where time permits it, the [censored] from Surbiton down know that they're not allowed on there, yet Surbiton barrier line does SFA about them and there's no one to stop them on intermediates, we get complaints but SWT does precisely nothing about them.

I've even caught one oink at Guildford hiding his bike in the toilet and when I told him to remove it, I got called a Charlie Uniform November Tango! The result he got slung not only off the train, but off the station as I was threatening to refuse to move a 12 car train with nearly 1000 people on it, until he was.

Personally I'd penalty fare them if they breach the peak time ban, a £20 fine for them a few times would do the trick. But will management ever have the gall or nerve to do it? I doubt it.

I concur, it's a issue across other TOCs too Personally speaking all the NSE TOCs need to crack down on this as it's anti social behavior!

 

[cjmillsnun]

The bike storage areas are on the platforms, how do they get the bikes to these areas if they are not allowed through the barriers?

Most will be leaving their bikes in these areas before getting on the train, there will always be some <deleted> who wants to get their non folding bike on the train though.

Most take their bikes on the train in my experience. It's an impossible task for the guards.

 

[RAPC]

Indeed, all of us up here just love to cause trouble, it's a garden of roses, politeness and etiquette down south, isn't it.

I must have missed that in my 10 years of commuting in London. Likewise today with my daughter with me on the tube in a baby carrier, I was sworn at for taking up 'too much effing space' (swear word changed to protect the eyes of the delicate), despite being in a corner and having the baby dangling in the space above somebody's suitcase. He sounded like a Londoner, but no doubt he moved south from the north a few years back...

Travelling across London is indeed generally a less friendly experience to the rest of the country. That is mainly due to the volume and pace of travel rather than Londoners per se. The old north vs south argument is a rather dull and inevitably fruitless distraction in threads like this.

Going back to the original post, as well as wheelchairs, prams also need to be banned too? As a recent parent, I am fortunate enough to be able to avoid public transport with the little one in tow. Some people can't avoid it though, so I cannot see why prams should be banned, especially if folded to minimise size. Otherwise the OP is suggesting banning the disabled, families with small children and cyclists. Presumably passengers with large luggage, animals and Christmas shoppers will be banned as well too?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Having seen intending passengers unable to even board Thameslink northbound at East Croydon at 1100 on Saturday morning because the minimalist 4 car 319 arriving from Brighton was completely rammed, and then passed Selhurst depot crammed every siding with units sunning the weekend away, not being cleaned, not being maintained, I am indeed serious.

I believe the DfT specification of train length is principally for peak periods, otherwise operators are left to their own devices on formations.

Not being maintained? You realise there are only so many that will fit INSIDE the depot at any point, and that there are limited fitters at the weekend.

 

[AM9]

....and that there are limited fitters at the weekend.

Well that's a TOC decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, all of us up here just love to cause trouble, it's a garden of roses, politeness and etiquette down south, isn't it.

No. But I do find that London "drunks" on the Tube etc behave better than those around the large Northern cities do on their railways - having to marshal the late night Tube is unheard of, for example. I did, to be fair, post that as a response to a post that was criticising Londoners.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally I'd penalty fare them if they breach the peak time ban, a £20 fine for them a few times would do the trick. But will management ever have the gall or nerve to do it? I doubt it.

Yes, I'm surprised there isn't scope for some kind of penalty for loading a bicycle onto a train where they are prohibited. Perhaps cause for a new Byelaw?

 

[TEW]

Who would enforce it anyway? I still see non-folding bikes being allowed through the barriers at Waterloo in the middle of the evening peak despite SWT having a rule saying that only folded bikes are permitted, which must be folded before boarding...

If that can't be enforced at a station with dozens of barrier and platform staff around plus guards on the trains, it can't be enforced anywhere can it?

If only that was the policy. The policy allows passengers travelling to destinations outside of the Suburban area to board trains at London Waterloo in the evening peak. It must make enforcement rather difficult at Waterloo. Enforcing the policy is a thankless task anyway, you just get a load of abuse, ignored by the cyclists and no back up.

 

[Via Bank]

How on Earth do you propose a cycle ban on Thameslink would be enforced, when the service is fully DOO and most of the gated stations seem to spend a lot of the time with their gates open?

The problem is capacity. If Thameslink advertise that passengers can take a bike on the train, they should provide adequately sized trains at an adequate frequency to ensure that everyone intending to travel is able to board.

Of course this will improve next year when the 700s start arriving, but let us not beat about the bush in the meantime. The problem is a capacity shortage. Not the fact that potential patrons would like to take their luggage with them (as they've been told they can do.)

 

[Taunton]

The problem is a capacity shortage.

There is no shortage of capacity. The problem is more than half the capacity is parked off-peak in sidings by management decision.

 

[Clip]

There is no shortage of capacity. The problem is more than half the capacity is parked off-peak in sidings by management decision.

We know, you keep telling us.

However there is another factor here which you are missing in that you don't know how many are having their mileage restricted so that they can last longer before the programmed exams which eeks out more availability in the fleet for peaks.


Unless you want 10 -15+ trains all in at the same time for exams?

 

[jon0844]

New trains put aside a lot more room for bikes/buggies/wheelchairs/luggage and I think existing trains should get the same treatment when refreshed. By all means enforce restrictions in the peaks, but outside I think you just make sure rolling stock is more capable of being used by everyone.

Trains aren't going to get quieter anytime soon, and we all pretty much accept a higher chance of needing to stand. In Sweden over the weekend I travelled on a metro-like train in Malmo that had 2+2 seating with table, but in many places two of the facing seats had tip up seats, presumably to allow for luggage to be stored there instead of people at some times (for convenience). Never seen that before!



Common courtesy should mean that parents fold buggies and cyclists consider other passengers before just barging on and blocking vestibules or seats - but we're living in a society where they're considered the victims if you dare say anything.

 

[AM9]

New trains put aside a lot more room for bikes/buggies/wheelchairs/luggage and I think existing trains should get the same treatment when refreshed. By all means enforce restrictions in the peaks, but outside I think you just make sure rolling stock is more capable of being used by everyone.

Trains aren't going to get quieter anytime soon, and we all pretty much accept a higher chance of needing to stand. In Sweden over the weekend I travelled on a metro-like train in Malmo that had 2+2 seating with table, but in many places two of the facing seats had tip up seats, presumably to allow for luggage to be stored there instead of people at some times (for convenience). Never seen that before!

View attachment 22819

Common courtesy should mean that parents fold buggies and cyclists consider other passengers before just barging on and blocking vestibules or seats - but we're living in a society where they're considered the victims if you dare say anything.

Having just spent a week in Cornwall using public transport, I was impressed with the signage in the buses. Wheelchair spaces are clearly marked with warnings that tip-up seats must be vacated if a wheelchair person needs then at any part of the journey. There is also a warning that this is a legal requirement. When a wheelchaired passenger did get on halfway through the journey, pushchair owners quickly folded them up and put them in the luggage 'bin' and sat in seats for 'normally fit' passengers. There were no moans or 'looks' from them.
That contrasts with the 'advisory' words on buses in the south-east which is usually ignored by passengers whose attitude is 'we were sitting there first'.
Such obedience could equally apply to designated cycle spaces on trains if the byelaws made it so.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

New trains put aside a lot more room for bikes/buggies/wheelchairs/luggage and I think existing trains should get the same treatment when refreshed. By all means enforce restrictions in the peaks, but outside I think you just make sure rolling stock is more capable of being used by everyone.

Trains aren't going to get quieter anytime soon, and we all pretty much accept a higher chance of needing to stand. In Sweden over the weekend I travelled on a metro-like train in Malmo that had 2+2 seating with table, but in many places two of the facing seats had tip up seats, presumably to allow for luggage to be stored there instead of people at some times (for convenience). Never seen that before!

View attachment 22819

Common courtesy should mean that parents fold buggies and cyclists consider other passengers before just barging on and blocking vestibules or seats - but we're living in a society where they're considered the victims if you dare say anything.

OK, you want the space for cycles, fine. You start paying ¼ or ½ fare for your bike + your own fare, because IT takes the space of at least 3 fare paying passengers, then there's you, so that makes it one person is now occupying the space of 4. So you should make a serious contribution to lost space/seating for your bicycle.

If you wanted to take your bicycle in a taxi you'd be charged for it, on a plane you'd be charged for it, a coach probably charged for it, so why not on the trains? Maybe today's management haven't got the nerve to do it, as it would be seen to upset the green & environmentalists.

Just like bike racks you should have to pay to store them there too, a token £1-2 per day to help cover the costs of the storage racks & increased security wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

If you wanted to take your bicycle in a taxi you'd be charged for it

Nope. Whenever I've taken a bike in a black cab there's been no extra charge.

on a plane you'd be charged for it

Nope. It's just luggage like anything else. Some airlines, e.g. Virgin Atlantic, actually give you an extra luggage allowance for your bike - i.e. you can take a bike and a suitcase.

a coach probably charged for it

Nope. Took the X5 to Milton Keynes and back last week, no charge for the bike.

I presume you're in favour of charging for suitcases, too?

0/3, poor trolling, must try harder.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

OK, you want the space for cycles, fine. You start paying ¼ or ½ fare for your bike + your own fare, because IT takes the space of at least 3 fare paying passengers, then there's you, so that makes it one person is now occupying the space of 4. So you should make a serious contribution to lost space/seating for your bicycle.

If you wanted to take your bicycle in a taxi you'd be charged for it, on a plane you'd be charged for it, a coach probably charged for it, so why not on the trains? Maybe today's management haven't got the nerve to do it, as it would be seen to upset the green & environmentalists.

Just like bike racks you should have to pay to store them there too, a token £1-2 per day to help cover the costs of the storage racks & increased security wouldn't be a bad thing either.

Utter rubbish and hardly conducive to the idea of eco-friendly travel that governments are so keen to promote. If a bike takes up the space of 3 fare paying passengers then that's the fault of a badly designed train interior, not the cyclist. The most elegant solution is for bikes to be stored vertically on trains, like on Virgin Voyagers or Northern Rail's 333s, where the space taken up is minimal.

And, as others have said, where do you draw the line? People who take prams, wheelchairs or excessive amounts of luggage are also taking up space that could be used by fare paying passengers (as indeed are rail staff with priv passes but that's another argument! ). You seem to have a bit of an agenda against cyclists - did your wife leave you for one or something?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Worth noting, too, that on (say) a 180, the bike space is in the crumple zone. So it "takes the space of at most 0 fare paying passengers".

 

[Taunton]

However there is another factor here which you are missing in that you don't know how many are having their mileage restricted so that they can last longer before the programmed exams which eeks out more availability in the fleet for peaks.

Unless you want 10 -15+ trains all in at the same time for exams?

I really hope you haven't embarrassed the Chief Fleet Engineer here, by saying they are unable to devise a maintenance schedule which avoids half the expensive fleet only being available for 40 hours a week out of the 168 (2 hours am peak and 2 hours pm peak), and their only other option would be to have 15 units booked for the same exam at the same time. Because such a Chief Fleet Engineer would surely be headed for their pension pretty soon if they had such an approach.

Now being given ludicrously tight budgets for vehicle miles from above is another matter ....

Common courtesy should mean that parents fold buggies

I generally conclude that people peddling this line have never been parents or given any thought to how you do this. You are presumably expecting poor old mum to take her baby out (that's a minimum two-handed job), then release the catch (third hand) and push hard to close the buggy (at least another hand). Hold on, human beings normally come only with two hands. Then again, you can't fold it if the underneath contains nappies, baby food, and the other 101 supplies that become necessary. Mum apparently has to take all those out as well. Where do those get stowed? Why don't you instead tell the wheelchair user's companion, if they have one, to pull the wheelchair user out, put them in a seat, then operate all the knobs to fold it up, and stow it vertical. Reverse operation when you arrive. It's exactly the same as the buggy - one human being unable to help themselves, and one pushing.

taking up space that could be used by fare paying passengers (as indeed are rail staff with priv passes

Ah, now there's an idea, all those management with priv passes don't sit in first class any more, but have to stand by the buggy/wheelchair space to assist as necessary due to the crush.

That should get full length trains back into circulation pronto!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Utter rubbish and hardly conducive to the idea of eco-friendly travel that governments are so keen to promote. If a bike takes up the space of 3 fare paying passengers then that's the fault of a badly designed train interior, not the cyclist. The most elegant solution is for bikes to be stored vertically on trains, like on Virgin Voyagers or Northern Rail's 333s, where the space taken up is minimal.

And, as others have said, where do you draw the line? People who take prams, wheelchairs or excessive amounts of luggage are also taking up space that could be used by fare paying passengers (as indeed are rail staff with priv passes but that's another argument! ). You seem to have a bit of an agenda against cyclists - did your wife leave you for one or something?

Oh I love a lycra lout... Not! [Edited]

Cyclists the only road user who's so stupid as to undertake a large coach/lorry/van and then complain bitterly that they nearly got killed when it turned left without warning. :roll:

BTW I'm not married, because most of them around here are bikes.

 

[Hadders]

I agree that this is an issue about only running 4 carriage trains. The growth of London is such that this is insufficient at many times that were considered until recently as very quiet times to travel.

My view is that it should be straightforward to run longer trains on Saturday evenings.