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My idea for a direct Heathrow - Gatwick rail service

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I sense this will be inflammatory...
How about, when Southern Rail Access to Heathrow is complete, a SWR or GWR or some TOC similar to Heathrow Express service could run between Heathrow to Gatwick via either Addlestone-Woking-Guildford-Gatwick or Ascot-Bagshot-Wanborough-Guildford-Gatwick. It is cumbersome to travel via London and you pretty much have to go via zone 1.
What is the potential for this project?
 
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Dr Hoo

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Can you flesh things out a bit on the question of how many people actually need to travel between Heathrow and Gatwick specifically?

It is reasonable to assume that trainloads of folks will need to travel between cities; home and work; home and education; to tourist attractions and so forth. But between airports (other than in small numbers for particularly esoteric flight combinations not available at hub airports)?
 

swt_passenger

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Little point if you can always do the journey quicker via Farringdon with one change.
 

coppercapped

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There used to be a helicopter service between the two airports. It closed when the M25 was opened and never carried many people even though the flight time was only 20 minutes or so.

There is no market - at least not of a size which can support a train service even if it keeps a few taxis busy.
 

williamn

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There is a regular National Express coach service between the two, so yes, there is a market.
 

MotCO

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There also used to be a couple of Green Line services - the 727 and 747 - and Speedlink, which showed there was a demand, but since they are no more, the demand cannot be there. However, if they were allowed to use the hard shoulders of the M25, it could be a winner!
 

sjoh

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I guess it could have its uses for intermediate flows to and from each airport. Unlikely much between them though.
 

NSE

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I've done a lot of traveling and only met one person who landed at Heathrow and had to go Gatwick in my whole life haha. That's not to say people don't want too of course, but I doubt the demand is there for a dedicated service.
 

Tim R-T-C

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It would only be of value if supported by the airlines, with baggage transfer and guaranteed connections in the event of any problems.

Might as well make it a full circle route, linking LCY, Stansted and Luton as well, for a much wider range of flights.
 

cav1975

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I travelled Heathrow to Gatwick a few years ago. My flight started from Gatwick but returned to Heathrow. (Sacrilege) I drove so I parked at Heathrow ready for my return.

It was quicker and cheaper to use the Piccadilly line and Southern via Victoria than to get the National Express then. It might still be today.
 

Ianno87

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One of life's greatest mysteries to me is the contingent of people obsessed with linking airports directly to each other with rail/whatever. I literally don't understand peoples' infatuation with it, nor the belief that the number of people involved warrants it.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Little point if you can always do the journey quicker via Farringdon with one change.

Which is fine provided:

1. SN/TL aren't disrupted by something or other.

2. There is no terrorist incident in progress

3. You're fit & healthy.

4. You're a solo traveller, travelling light.

5. The underground is behaving itself.

6. You don't have a full family of 2 or more kids, wife and luggage in tow.

Going across London is a thing that I avoid at all costs, unless I'm obliged to say for example Surrey to East Anglia or Surrey to Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow/York/Edinburgh.

I would most definitely avoid it if I had a family in tow (I don't BTW).

You could say that what's proposed here isn't a good idea and a waste of time because of the amount of through traffic, but then again you could have that attitude to AXC and say about how many people actually do Glasgow or Edinburgh to Cheltenham/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth or Penzance.

Not many I bet. But you'll hundreds if not thousands who do intermediate journeys, some of which are done because it involves an easier but slower journey without changes and lugging cases et al through stairs & subways.

The same could be said for this idea, probably not that many end to end journeys unless there's serious disruption (weather/incident) at one or t'other so a flight gets diverted to whichever and your car is parked at the other, then such a link would really come into its own.

Also it opens up other useful journey opportunities for local people who may want to go from two intermediate points that would normally incur at least one change of trains.

Would I like to see such a thing? Yes, its a use of a line that doesn't see much use other than a useless skip stop local service and a semi fast to Reading, possibly 3 tph when Redhill is finished and that's only on a weekday (off peak).
 

tsr

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Would I like to see such a thing? Yes, its a use of a line that doesn't see much use other than a useless skip stop local service and a semi fast to Reading, possibly 3 tph when Redhill is finished and that's only on a weekday (off peak).

Are you talking about the North Downs? What a load of nonsense, the Reading-Gatwick sees a huge amount of local commuting traffic, including several big schools and colleges around Guildford and Reigate, not to mention leisure traffic of all kinds.

Yes, some trains can be quiet, and yes, some stations only serve small villages, but it's mostly well-used, and the stats don't necessarily tally up. Remember how Dorking West was supposedly one of Britain's quietest stations for years? And how it jumped massively when somebody could be bothered to actually count up how many people used Deepdene vs West and vice versa? And remember the occasions that the local users at Gomshall have successfully campaigned for extra stops on the semi-fast services during peak hours? Etc.

Bit of a clue here - I know the area very, very well; sign a good half of the feeder routes into the NDL; have used the local service for about two decades; happen to know people who commute or have commuted on the stretch with the "skip stops" for many years; and more. Didn't you once post on here that you basically don't use it?
 

JonathanH

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There also used to be a couple of Green Line services - the 727 and 747 - and Speedlink, which showed there was a demand, but since they are no more, the demand cannot be there. However, if they were allowed to use the hard shoulders of the M25, it could be a winner!

Eh? 727 and 747 overlap with a number of other National Express services to offer connections between Heathrow and Gatwick.

727 Norwich to Gatwick via Stansted and Heathrow
http://www.travelinesoutheast.org.u...tdLPxx_spTr=1&itdLPxx_operatorCodeForTTB=NXAP

747 Heathrow to Brighton via Gatwick
http://www.travelinesoutheast.org.u...tdLPxx_spTr=1&itdLPxx_operatorCodeForTTB=NXAP

A search on Traveline South East suggests that there are just under 80 coach services from Heathrow to Gatwick on Monday on a number of different routes (200 (Bristol), 201 (South Wales), 210 (West Midlands), 230 (East Midlands), 707 (Northampton), 727 (Norwich), 747 (Brighton)) scheduled between 1 hour 20 and 2 hours.

Obviously no single dedicated route but running coaches to both Heathrow and Gatwick from further afield is probably the most efficient way of offering a service between the two.
 

HarleyDavidson

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I've been forced into abandoning it because :

1. It doesn't start early enough

2. It doesn't finish late enough

3. It doesn't have an hourly or better service at the intermediate stations between Guildford and Redhill.

4. I can't do a trip from one station to the next.

5. It's bloody unreliable.

6. It doesn't tie up with the fast London or fast Portsmouth services.

7. It's easier to drive over the hill to a Cobham line station where I can get a minimum 30' interval service and most of the time a 15' service.

And BTW I used to work across it too in BR days and I live about 600m as the crow flies or a 10 min walk away from it and have done all of my 50+ years, so please don't try and pull rank.
 

dosxuk

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If you read the likes of Flyertalk there is a lot of demand for connecting between flights at Gatwick and Heathrow, but the risks of making such a connection, the minimum connection time allowed (3h I believe for BA at least) and the cost puts the vast majority off. From that forum it seems the main recommendation is a taxi as it's less likely to suffer from disruption than the public transport options.

As someone said further up, if there was a dedicated link, with airline backing, baggage transfers and guaranteed connections the demand could well explode.
 

Ant158

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One good (annoying) reason to connect between the two might me if you live in the UK regions, especially Manchester, and you want to travel BA long haul from Gatwick to the Sun. There used to be a MAN-LGW shuttle now only LHR.
 

Peter Mugridge

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As someone said further up, if there was a dedicated link, with airline backing, baggage transfers and guaranteed connections the demand could well explode.


Something like this, then...?

( From a Word document of 2 or 3 years ago )

How do you solve a problem like Heathrow?


For some time now the question of whether or not HS2 should serve Heathrow and if so how has been somewhat of a thorn in the side of the debate on the exact details of the project.

On the one hand, serving Heathrow brings with it the potential to transfer considerable volumes of currently domestic air travel to rail. This would involve mainly people connecting to and from intercontinental flights. On the other hand, running via Heathrow would add to the journey time to and from London with a consequent negative effect on the attraction of HS2 services for purely domestic journey options.

Solutions that have been floated over the past few years have involved huge nearby interchanges with connections, diverting the line a few miles and permutations of both that include triangular junctions to allow some trains to literally bypass the question altogether. There are also suggestions that involve connections with HS1 to the airport.

None of this so far seems very elegant and each of the proposed solutions seems to bring with it a new set of problems. So let us stop and think about a number of factors for a moment:

• To stand any chance of picking up connecting intercontinental passengers, HS2 must serve Heathrow directly – the time taken for a connecting transfer to be made would mean that for these passengers a domestic flight connection would still be an attractive proposition.


• To maximise the attraction of HS2 for purely domestic travel ( that is travel which starts or finishes in or goes via London itself ) services need to take the shortest route in or out of London with the fewest stops.


• A connection with HS1 is essential in order to maximise network benefits – a quick connection between services on the two lines as well as the ability to run at least some through services is very important.

There was already a suggestion, before it was shelved, that the proposed direct link between HS1 and HS2 should be twin track instead of the originally planned single track link; this is good and it deals with the third point, as does the proposal for a single large interchange at Euston and King’s Cross / St Pancras. The question of the airport does, however, remain largely – please excuse the pun – in the air.

Looking at this logically, the suggestions of a large triangular junction do seem to be the most sensible as this would allow services to and from London and through direct services between HS2 and HS1 to make their way without being delayed by going via Heathrow or a nearby interchange by using the north side of the triangle – which would be similar to the complex south of Lille in France.

Through services between Heathrow and HS1 would use the eastern side of the triangle. Such services would most logically consist mainly of an expansion with additional services of the current Southeastern High Speed domestic services to the airport. In addition some international services could potentially be run as connections between Heathrow and the near continent.

The west side of the triangle would allow for HS2 services starting and terminating at Heathrow itself; this would effectively turn Heathrow into a second southern terminus for HS2 and would allow the airport services to be operated distinctly from the central London services and provides the vital direct link at the heart of the airport that is needed to make the airport option viable.

With an HS2 station directly under Heathrow the potential would then exist to do something very exciting as an “add on” project – an extension of HS2 to Gatwick. The distance between the two airports is not huge – 43 miles by road and 24 miles as the crow flies. A high speed rail link could therefore be expected to be approximately 30 miles, similar to the distance between Ebbsfleet and Ashford which implies that if this section was engineered for 140mph then a 15 minute transit time between the two would be a reasonable expectation.

This relatively short distance means that there is little point in engineering for higher speeds as it is reasonable to expect that all services would call at both airports. As a result, the line need not be quite as arrow straight as HS2 which means it would be easier to find a route for it through what is an area with a relatively dense population – an approximate route running along the course of the M25 to roughly half way between junctions 9 and 10 then passing in a long tunnel ( on the face of it this would be yet another NIMBY tunnel but it does also allow the most direct route to be taken so in this case it would be required anyway! ) from north of Effingham Common and running underneath Mickleham and Box Hill; this would emerge roughly half way between Dorking and Reigate leaving the line a fairly straight run direct to Gatwick through a largely open area.

The tricky bit, really, is going to be the section between the northern portal of this Box Hill tunnel and Heathrow as this is the area of extremely dense population and there are also numerous important parks and heritage sites that need to be avoided. For this sector, the line would probably need to literally “hug” the M25!

To extend the line like this would effectively turn Heathrow and Gatwick into a single airport over two sites. You would not be running all the HS2 services through the Gatwick – rather you would have a high frequency shuttle service using an additional build of class 395s between the airports running every 10 minutes or so with perhaps two HS2 through services every hour running below Heathrow to Gatwick. Most of the HS2 services would not run below Heathrow.

This carries other benefits as well – if half of these Heathrow – Gatwick class 395 shuttles were then extended to central London ( the Euston / St Pancras interchange ) using the eastern side of the previously described triangle, you would have a 20 minute interval service between London and Gatwick via Heathrow taking roughly 35 minutes end to end; this could allow the present Gatwick Express to be removed from the northern part of the Brighton Line which would considerably ease the pathing on that route and allow a re-cast of that line’s services without losing any direct services to or through Gatwick from anywhere else.

The suggested HS2 Gatwick station would be separate from the present railway infrastructure, but it may be worth considering a link to the present tracks south of the airport in order to allow some of these class 395 workings to run through, at conventional speeds, below Gatwick to Brighton in order to allow easier connections to Heathrow and HS2 from the south coast. There is little point in building a high speed alignment below Gatwick – the distances are not great so the speed would be far less beneficial than the connections gained. There would also be serious cost implications plus we are again in an area of quite dense population meaning routing such a line would be very difficult.

So, we should perhaps not be asking whether or not HS2 should serve Heathrow directly but instead whether or not we can use HS2 to create a true interface between domestic rail and intercontinental air travel without the need for additional runways or short stubs of high speed line or diverting high speed services out of London itself. This article suggests we can and at the same time ease pressure on the Brighton line and improve connectivity for a large chunk of the south coast.

In a sense, then, the answer is that HS2 should not run to Heathrow. It should run to Gatwick via Heathrow.
 

thenorthern

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I did see something mentioned a couple of years ago that there should be a direct train between the two for transit passengers and have it so that they don't have to pass through UK immigration to board the train.

For example if someone was going from Moscow to Bermuda on a Russian Passport they could arrive at Heathrow and then board a train for transit passengers then arrive at Gatwick departures airside thus avoiding needing to get a British visa.
 

radamfi

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There also used to be a couple of Green Line services - the 727 and 747 - and Speedlink, which showed there was a demand, but since they are no more, the demand cannot be there. However, if they were allowed to use the hard shoulders of the M25, it could be a winner!

Jetlink and Speedlink were simply rebranded as National Express about 15 years ago, meaning that passengers would simply get the next coach, regardless where it came from to went to.

And what an over priced rip-off it is. So definitely a market.

Cambridge Coach Services used to offer a cheaper but less frequent option. Megabus have recently started operating between the west and Gatwick via Heathrow so you can save money if you aren't in a rush and can wait for the next Megabus.
 

coppercapped

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I did see something mentioned a couple of years ago that there should be a direct train between the two for transit passengers and have it so that they don't have to pass through UK immigration to board the train.

For example if someone was going from Moscow to Bermuda on a Russian Passport they could arrive at Heathrow and then board a train for transit passengers then arrive at Gatwick departures airside thus avoiding needing to get a British visa.

A lot of them are there?

A dedicated train will need somewhere between 50 and 100 passengers to be economic and as no airline passenger will wait for an hour for a train - in that time one could have travelled 500 miles - the frequency will have to be higher, say every 15 minutes. Now you are talking between 200 and 400 passengers per hour.

Anyway, why would anyone in their right mind change airports 30 miles apart when, for example, a Moscow passenger for Bermuda could change at Paris Charles-de-Gaulle and not leave the airport? Other combinations of airports and journeys are available.
 

Rational Plan

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There is no point in having a line linking the two airports on their own. But if at some point there is more money for various HS lines, then a circular line around London from the North to Brighton connnecting Heathrow and Gatwick would provide enough passengers for regaular services from various Norther cities, while Heathrow on it's own does not cut it.

I'd imagine Brighton would have to see a second station/major expansion to fit in all the extra cross country services from the Great Western / Hs2 /West Coast and East Coast Mainline etc. Plus a new line to Brighton could be used by new expresses to London etc.

It's only if you build big will you get lots of traffic and you can combine lots of different routes as well helps.

But this sort of scheme is so far down the list at the current rate of funding it would be the 2060's before people though about it.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Little point if you can always do the journey quicker via Farringdon with one change.

This says it all. Yes, it's difficult at the moment to travel between Heathrow and Gatwick by train, but that difficulty will largely evaporate as soon as Crossrail and the Thameslink improvements are fully operational.
 

Bald Rick

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I'd be interested to know how many contributors to this forum have ever had to travel from Heathrow to Gatwick or vice versa, how often, and for what purpose.
 

HarleyDavidson

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And I'd like to know the rationale of always going via London, which is generally more expensive, more awkward, congested and much harder to do compared to what would be a easier albeit slower method without any congestion, no stairs, interchanges on a through service?
 

johnnychips

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How many people fly into Heathrow and then fly out of Gatwick and vv?

Another poster agreed with this, and me too. You can look up flights on sites like Opodo that give this option, but that just suggests to me 'avoid'!

Now you may argue that this indicates suppressed demand, but then scrolling down you find flights that involve no change of airport for a bit more money then you think - hey I don't have to unload, carry and reload my bags AND I don't have to look up and buy tickets between LHR and LGW - these suggested transfers only mention in the small print that the cost of however you make that journey is not included.
 
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