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My idea for a new class system for trains

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Class377/5

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Already available whenever a 319/4 strays onto the Wimbledon Loop.

But you missed the most important: "free-staff-travel-first class" - a first class compartment purely for staff use where we, sorry I mean they, can talk about sensitive industry matters in private / last night's footy without interruption from standard class ticket holders chancing their luck with the RPIs. Or am I missing the point.

The loop will get used to it with the 700's anyway! I'm get on the north half of the loop and it's quite common for one unit to have first class. What happens when you barely have enough units.

Because First Class fares subsidise Standard fares massively. Remove them and you'll find Standard fares will rocket. That's my understanding anyway.


I haven't got the figures to show either way (unless you do) but my point is Chiltern have done it (tho they just brought 1st class back in the back door) and a South East TOC asked to have all first class removed. Now if your point is true, I doubt that would have done that.
 
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Wolfie

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With many trains due to be replaced or refurbished over the coming years due to DDA, it would seem an ideal time to review seating patterns and classes on trains.

How about the following idea:

Intercity and Regional Express trains to have 1st class and regional class. (The reason for that name will follow.) 1st class needs to have 2+1 seating while 2nd class needs to have 2+2 seating. There should also be requirements on tables, leg room and amount of seat padding used.

Local and commuter trains to have standard class and regional class. Both classes would have 2+2 seating but regional class would be the same standard as on Intercity and Regional Express but standard class can have less comfy seats, doesn't need to have tables and can have slightly less leg room than regional class.

Now with tickets:

Journeys over 50 miles get up to two options: Regional class and First class (if FC is available.) Regional class would be the same cost as standard currently.

Journeys under 50 miles also get up to three options: Standard class, Regional class and First Class (where available). Standard class and first class would be the same cost as currently, regional class would incur a cost in between the two.

I think regional class would have the following advantages:

1. If you make a journey like Southport to Buxton or Southport to Chester then you're not spending an extended amount of time on commuter style seating and consequently make taking the train on such journeys a more attractive option.

2. It would mean operators like Southern can't just offer an inferior first class service and brand it as first class, but have an intermediate classification to use opposed to different standards of standard class.

3. It allows an upgrade for commuters in all areas which guarantees them tables and better seating. With Northern currently you pay the same price whether it's 142 style seating that would be impossible to work at or 158 style seating which provides a good working environment if not too crowded.

Hum, lets simplify and call them something else, I know 1st, 2nd and 3rd class....sure that rings bells.....

You may think I am joking but it would take the media about three seconds flat to spin your plan as the return of 3rd class - doubtless at current standard class prices.....
 

asylumxl

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I think we should scrap First Class entirely...

  • More seats available for everyone
  • A consistent quality of accommodation
  • More even loading over the length of the train
  • Free Wi-Fi and other niceties for all

I can dream.
 

ex-railwayman

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Well, I've had a good laugh reading this thread, thanks for starting it.

I always thought that purchasing a rail ticket was to pay for the journey undertaken, being able to sit down anywhere whilst you do it, was a bonus.

I thought we already had a scrote class anyway, it was always known as 2nd Class, in my day.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
 
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HH

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Because First Class fares subsidise Standard fares massively. Remove them and you'll find Standard fares will rocket. That's my understanding anyway.

Massively is a massive overstatement on these services. And TBH most services these days. First Class usage has dropped considerably - most firms now won't pay First Class for business travel. In any case, except for Intercity, First is around 1.5 to 1.6 times Standard. Given the % of passengers that travel first class (Southern is 2% for example), any subsidy would be minor.

What is true is that much of the First Class travel is full price, and that it's quite full when the trains are at their busiest. When they're empty there are generally plenty of seats on the train. So there's generally more revenue to be earnt from keeping a first class offer.

Some trains could do with a reduction in their first class capacity, but that is expensive and would generally only be done as part of a general refresh.
 

ainsworth74

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Given the % of passengers that travel first class (Southern is 2% for example), any subsidy would be minor.

But it's still a subsidy so any removal/drastic reduction would still mean that someone has to pick up the loss of revenue...
 

LE Greys

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Massively is a massive overstatement on these services. And TBH most services these days. First Class usage has dropped considerably - most firms now won't pay First Class for business travel. In any case, except for Intercity, First is around 1.5 to 1.6 times Standard. Given the % of passengers that travel first class (Southern is 2% for example), any subsidy would be minor.

What is true is that much of the First Class travel is full price, and that it's quite full when the trains are at their busiest. When they're empty there are generally plenty of seats on the train. So there's generally more revenue to be earnt from keeping a first class offer.

Some trains could do with a reduction in their first class capacity, but that is expensive and would generally only be done as part of a general refresh.

It actually increased under GNER, which I was quite grateful for, because I sometimes got to travel on a First Advance which was cheaper than an SSR with a railcard. Weekend First has also been quite useful in unlocking capacity for a small suppliment.

In terms of class and standard, look at what is labelled as what. Basically, consider all the former Intercity routes, plus Waterloo-Weymouth/Exeter, Kent Coast (Javelin), Paddington-Worcester-Hereford, Trans-Pennine, XC Turbostar-worked, Liverpool-Norwich, Scotrail Express and former Alphaline, those would be Intercity. Intercity means guaranteed first available (proportion decided by route), guaranteed catering (restaurant/buffet/trolley depending on route), low-density seating, Off-peak and Super-off-peak tickets available and big luggage facilities - basically all the comforts of an express passenger train, being precisely what it is. Commuter expresses around London (Kent Cost non-Javelin, Brighton Main Line, Portsmouth Direct, airport expresses, Cambridge Cruiser, Oxford Flyer, etc) might not need the catering or luggage space, and might require a higher seating density, but on the whole they are basically the same - I'd apply this to any non-Intercity Class 1 train. Class 2 trains can be divided roughly into outer suburban, inner suburban/metro, rural medium-distance and rural stoppers. Depending on route and service pattern, seating density can be mid to high, first might or might not be available, same for catering and luggage space. Inner suburban trains would be designed to optimise the number of people on-board, the others more of a compromise, since people might spend more time on them (several hours on some medium-distance trains).

Sound familiar? It's basically what BR did before sectorisation. Apart from modifying the position of some non-Intercity Class 1 trains (downgrading by NSE and RR IMO), it's what they did after sectorisation as well.
 
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