My idea for a Scotland-Wales Sleeper ?

[Liam_Hendry]

Does anyone think a sleeper to Wales might be popular ?? Edinburgh to Swansea/Aberystwyth

This is just my amateur idea

Depart - Edinburgh at 22:55
Dunbar 22:20
Berwick 22:45
Alnmouth 23:07
Morpeth 23:22
Newcastle 23:40
Durham 23:57
Darlington 00:16
Loco Change at York to Diesel, Departing an hour later at 01:35
Doncaster 01:55
Sheffield 02:24
Arrive at Birmingham at 3:30. Train Splits into 2 portions, Crew Break
Departing Birmingham New Street at 04:40

Swansea Portion----------------------------------Aberystwyth Portion

Arrive - Cheltenham 05:10-------------Arrive at Wolverhampton 04:56
Gloucester 05:23----------------------- Telford Central 05:18
Chepstow 05:51------------------------ Wellington 05:26
Newport 06:15---------------------------Shrewsbury 05:41
Cardiff Central 06:34-------------------Welshpool 06:12
Bridgend 06:53--------------------------Newton 06:29
Port Talbot 07:12------------------------Machynlleth 07:13
Neath 07:22------------------------------Dovey Junction 07:23
SWANSEA 07:45-------------------------ABERYSTWYTH 07:54

In my opinion it would be good service, but i dont know what other services it would disturb.

 

[The Planner]

ERTMS fitted class 37 on a Cambrian sleeper? my shares in Kleenex have just rocketed in price.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Does anyone think a sleeper to Wales might be popular ?? Edinburgh to Swansea/Aberystwyth

This is just my amateur idea

Depart - Edinburgh at 22:55
Dunbar 22:20
Berwick 22:45
Alnmouth 23:07
Morpeth 23:22
Newcastle 23:40
Durham 23:57
Darlington 00:16
Loco Change at York to Diesel, Departing an hour later at 01:35
Doncaster 01:55
Sheffield 02:24
Arrive at Birmingham at 3:30. Train Splits into 2 portions, Crew Break
Departing Birmingham New Street at 04:40

Swansea Portion----------------------------------Aberystwyth Portion

Arrive - Cheltenham 05:10-------------Arrive at Wolverhampton 04:56
Gloucester 05:23----------------------- Telford Central 05:18
Chepstow 05:51------------------------ Wellington 05:26
Newport 06:15---------------------------Shrewsbury 05:41
Cardiff Central 06:34-------------------Welshpool 06:12
Bridgend 06:53--------------------------Newton 06:29
Port Talbot 07:12------------------------Machynlleth 07:13
Neath 07:22------------------------------Dovey Junction 07:23
SWANSEA 07:45-------------------------ABERYSTWYTH 07:54

In my opinion it would be good service, but i dont know what other services it would disturb.

Unfortunately you'd recreate the Abermule crash of 1922 with those times as the 0513 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL leaves Newtown and enter the single track section to Fron at 0625......
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ERTMS fitted class 37 on a Cambrian sleeper? my shares in Kleenex have just rocketed in price.

The Cambrian never had a sleeper even back in the day, though the York Mail that left Aberystwyth just after 1800 carried a through Brake Second until the mid 1970's. Deposited you in York at an ungodly hour.

 

[Liam_Hendry]

Apart from the times, if it were to happen, how many coaches would you use? I would use maybe 13 coaches from Edinburgh (2 lounge, 2 sitting, 2 first class coaches and 7 standard coaches. At Birmingham the Swansea portion consists of 3 Standard Coaches, 1 First Class Coach, 1 Lounge Car and 1 Sitting Car. Aberystwyth portion would be 2 (3 if needed) Standard Class Coaches, 1 First Class Coach, 1 Lounge Car and 1 Sitting Coach.

 

[Greenback]

I would imagine that 1 sleeping car and 1 lounge car would be more than enough to cater for the demand.

 

[bluenoxid]

A later Southbound departure from Edinburgh would be nice but I cannot see it being justified to Brum.

There is an 08:30 arrival into Cardiff Airport and Birmingham Airport from Edinburgh for that kind of traveller.

 

[Class 92]

They could always run the sleeper along the West Coast Mainline to Crewe then through to Shrewsbury and split it there or at Crewe?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A Holyhead - Cardiff - Fishguard sleeper was put up for one of the franchise bids in the early 2000's - I coulden't work out if it was a serious option or an April 1st prank.

Never mind planning - always look for a market first - then plan.

Put it this way - I would not put my money into it.

 

[anthony263]

I am not sure if there wil be demand for a Swansea - Scotland sleeper train. Megabus are running a coach sleeper from Cardiff to Edinburgh departing Cardiff at 2300 and arriving into Edinburgh at 07:30 the return service arrivies into Cardiff at 05:45.

Of course there would be demand for a Penzance/Plymouth - Scotland sleeper train

 

[Condor7]

A Holyhead - Cardiff - Fishguard sleeper was put up for one of the franchise bids in the early 2000's - I coulden't work out if it was a serious option or an April 1st prank.

Never mind planning - always look for a market first - then plan.

Put it this way - I would not put my money into it.

Well let's be honest, there are a lot of things in the railways that we would not put our money in, but they still operate, because it is not always down to just the money.

 

[Liam_Hendry]

Of course there would be demand for a Penzance/Plymouth - Scotland sleeper train

Of course you would need a couple of seated cars since the journey takes a while.

Ill try work that one out actually, seems interesting.

 

[DarloRich]

Does anyone think a sleeper to Wales might be popular ?? Edinburgh to Swansea/Aberystwyth

This is just my amateur idea

Depart - Edinburgh at 22:55
Dunbar 22:20
Berwick 22:45
Alnmouth 23:07
Morpeth 23:22
Newcastle 23:40
Durham 23:57
Darlington 00:16
Loco Change at York to Diesel, Departing an hour later at 01:35
Doncaster 01:55
Sheffield 02:24
Arrive at Birmingham at 3:30. Train Splits into 2 portions, Crew Break
Departing Birmingham New Street at 04:40

Swansea Portion----------------------------------Aberystwyth Portion

Arrive - Cheltenham 05:10-------------Arrive at Wolverhampton 04:56
Gloucester 05:23----------------------- Telford Central 05:18
Chepstow 05:51------------------------ Wellington 05:26
Newport 06:15---------------------------Shrewsbury 05:41
Cardiff Central 06:34-------------------Welshpool 06:12
Bridgend 06:53--------------------------Newton 06:29
Port Talbot 07:12------------------------Machynlleth 07:13
Neath 07:22------------------------------Dovey Junction 07:23
SWANSEA 07:45-------------------------ABERYSTWYTH 07:54

In my opinion it would be good service, but i dont know what other services it would disturb.

(i must be nice - here goes)

You are going to need an ERTMS fitted loco for some of that journey. That will be interesting shifting a 97 from Coleham to York everyday. Consider that there are only three 97's. You will need some other locos fitting. Further consider only DBS men may drive them. You will need to train more drivers. There goes any chance of a profit in that section of the journey, even if you can attract more than 4 people annually.

In fact why on earth would you run a sleeper to half horse towns with 16 people living in them in the back end of no where in Wales? Who needs to go there so urgently that they must arrive at 8am?

If you did run such a service why wouldn't you run it to Birmingham via the WCML and then to south wales via Bristol, that being where the biggest Welsh population centres are. Surely you would also run two portions to/from Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than one via the ECML and a vast stagger about the country.

However is there even a market for such a thing? I doubt it.
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Of course there would be demand for a Penzance/Plymouth - Scotland sleeper train

would there? Says who?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would imagine that 1 sleeping car and 1 lounge car would be more than enough to cater for the demand.

That was my first impression, too. I even wondered if just 1 specially designed coach with half its capacity allocated to berths and the other half to seating might be enough for any actual passenger demand for overnight travel from Edinburgh to Cardiff or Swansea.

They may be capital cities, but . . . . .

 

[overthewater]

The demand would have been around years ago because of the Dockyards and navel bases.

 

[DarloRich]

That was my first impression, too. I even wondered if just 1 specially designed coach with half its capacity allocated to berths and the other half to seating might be enough for any actual passenger demand for overnight travel from Edinburgh to Cardiff or Swansea.

They may be capital cities, but . . . . .

would it not be cheaper and easier just to hire all potential passengers a chauffeur driven car direct to their destination?

 

[Proud Salopian]

I would imagine that 1 sleeping car and 1 lounge car would be more than enough to cater for the demand.

If ATW ran the service, it would be a 153.

 

[anthony263]

If ATW ran the service, it would be a 153.

Don't go giving the WG any idea's

 

[Proud Salopian]

I know, I know... and they'd probably reduce the HOWL service to provide for it!

 

[nathanclass323]

Well let's be honest, there are a lot of things in the railways that we would not put our money in, but they still operate, because it is not always down to just the money.

Voyagers and Pacers would be a good example for many enthusiasts but I'm not gonna turn this into a Voyager/Pacer bashing thread.


In response to the OP, it seems like a nice idea but I'm not sure how many customers you will attract with that service. You would need to provide something extra special to really bribe people to use it.

 

[Tobbes]

In response to the OP, I think the demand for Aber / Pwhelli sections would be completely hopeless.

But Swansea/Cardiff - Edinburgh if combined with SW / Scotland sleeper service at Bristol Parkway could add enough demand to be viable. An SW / Scotland sleeper would need to be heavily subsidised anyway, so if the Welsh Government wanted to chip in for South Wales / Scotland then it could be worth doing. I can't imagine it would need more than a Fort William-sized four coach set (if that!), though.

Tobbes

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The demand would have been around years ago because of the Dockyards and navel bases.

Indeed - which is why the Barrow sleeper (1 car I think) survived for so long ..ditto the Pembroke Dock car.

The thing with sleepers (obvious comment) is that they are highly specialised, do one run per 24 hours and have low capacity and earning power. Also need special facilities and so on for servicing.

Not many left in Europe bar on the high volume - longer distance routes - and even the cheap and cheerful couchette offer (of blessed and sleepless memory is fast disapearing)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There used to be a Glasgow -Bristol Sleeper. So Edinburgh/Glasgow combine at Carstairs or even go Central-Waverly etc - then to Bristol and Cardiff/Swansea. It used to require the assistance of the Lickey banker IIRC.

 

[Quakers Yard]

Been on the Glasgow to Bristol sleeper once. To be fair the wait for a Cardiff train was omly twenty minutes and there must have been just ten people on it but that was a long time ago!

 

[merlodlliw]

If ATW ran the service, it would be a 153.

only if someone paid ATW to run it. I take it North Wales was left out due to Scot Rail serving Crewe, as we are on the infrastructure page. I noticed today NR have replaced the track to/from Bersham to Shropshire, a better ride yes, that's about it, any couple of minutes speed up will now be lost at Wrexham it would seem.