My idea for Cross Country services expansion

[MidnightFlyer]

Has anyone got the final timings immediately before they ceased to hand?

Is hindsight making these former XC services seem more regular and more important than they really were?

ISTM that NR and DfT would prefer to see a reliable clock face Brighton to London service through Gatwick, rather than stick a few random XC's into the mix over the course of a day.

Not the final timetable but a good indication, I can't imagine much changed much before their fate was sealed:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060411...-Birmingham-Northern England and Scotland.pdf

M-S
0515 Gatwick-Manchester via Guildford
0921 Brighton-Manchester via Croydon
1422 Brighton-Manchester via Croydon

Su
0940 Brighton-Manchester via Guildford

M-S
0754 Manchester-Brighton via Croydon
1454 Manchester-Brighton via Croydon
1754 SX Manchester-Gatwick via Guildford

Su
1555 Manchester-Brighton via Croydon
1655 Manchester-Gatwick via Guildford

 

[swt_passenger]

Not the final timetable but a good indication, I can't imagine much changed much before their fate was sealed:

Thanks for digging that info out.

 

[RobShipway]

Surely though, the extra capacity at Redhill is already clearly earmarked for the enhanced FGW service? IIRC XC's service to Gatwick/Brighton was a bit of a token gesture, and by no means a regular all day option.

Has anyone got the final timings immediately before they ceased to hand?

Is hindsight making these former XC services seem more regular and more important than they really were?

ISTM that NR and DfT would prefer to see a reliable clock face Brighton to London service through Gatwick, rather than stick a few random XC's into the mix over the course of a day.

But there are random trains all over the place on the network and a good example to that is the FGW Brighton to Bristol Parkway which occurs at 8:59am and 4:59pm each weekday.

 

[MCR247]

But there are random trains all over the place on the network and a good example to that is the FGW Brighton to Bristol Parkway which occurs at 8:59am and 4:59pm each weekday.

A very good example, the West Coastway and the Brighton Mainline are so similar in terms of capacity

 

[GatwickDepress]

Honestly, a regular and direct Brighton to Reading or - somehow - a Basingstoke service operated by SN or SWT would be a much better use of paths and stock than a token XC service.

On a side note, in the late 2000s I remember XC's service being relatively empty until Gatwick Airport, where it was then used as yet another fast service to Brighton. I'm sure they were very well-loaded pre-internet journey planners and improved WCML frequencies, but was what I remembered accurate?

I have friends at the University of Sussex, and when they travel home, they all go via Clapham Junction for West Country destinations or use VTWC for West Coast destinations (on dirt cheap advance tickets as well). I know students don't account for the majority of passenger types and journeys, but y'know... anecdotal evidence weighs heavily in the mind and all that.

With passengers having so much variety to choose from out of Brighton - and of course you can totally avoid London for the majority of journeys - it seems that XC wouldn't gain much from serving Brighton.

 

[RobShipway]

Honestly, a regular and direct Brighton to Reading or - somehow - a Basingstoke service operated by SN or SWT would be a much better use of paths and stock than a token XC service.

On a side note, in the late 2000s I remember XC's service being relatively empty until Gatwick Airport, where it was then used as yet another fast service to Brighton. I'm sure they were very well-loaded pre-internet journey planners and improved WCML frequencies, but was what I remembered accurate?

I have friends at the University of Sussex, and when they travel home, they all go via Clapham Junction for West Country destinations or use VTWC for West Coast destinations (on dirt cheap advance tickets as well). I know students don't account for the majority of passenger types and journeys, but y'know... anecdotal evidence weighs heavily in the mind and all that.

With passengers having so much variety to choose from out of Brighton - and of course you can totally avoid London for the majority of journeys - it seems that XC wouldn't gain much from serving Brighton.

The service would have to be via Gatwick/Guildford as I don't think any customer would want to spend an extra hour getting to Reading via Basingstoke. But as has previously been stated there is not the paths. However, this is where I think that BML2 could help resolve some of those path issues.

A very good example, the West Coastway and the Brighton Mainline are so similar in terms of capacity

I believe there also used to be at least two direct Brighton to Cardiff central trains which where operated by Arriva Trains Wales in the past as well as the FGW trains to Bristol. The Cardiff trains have now moved to start from Portsmouth due to the capacity needs on the West Coastway route. In making these changes the people planning the timetables, paths etc for the TOCs have lost sight on the needs of the passengers to the fact that lets just run a railway system that makes us money. I know each TOC has more and more demands for their services, but with the paths available there must be a way to keep the services and still provide the trains that the customers want and need.

 

[acg5324]

Not the final timetable but a good indication, I can't imagine much changed much before their fate was sealed:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060411...-Birmingham-Northern England and Scotland.pdf

M-S
0515 Gatwick-Manchester via Guildford
0921 Brighton-Manchester via Croydon
1422 Brighton-Manchester via Croydon

Su
0940 Brighton-Manchester via Guildford

M-S
0754 Manchester-Brighton via Croydon
1454 Manchester-Brighton via Croydon
1754 SX Manchester-Gatwick via Guildford

Su
1555 Manchester-Brighton via Croydon
1655 Manchester-Gatwick via Guildford

http://www.1S76.com for all the info you may ever need on the Brighton XC services.

 

[ushawk]

XC back to Brighton simply wont happen.

It would be far more better for the Southern WLL services to be extended down to Gatwick and Brighton again which would certainly give more options than a XC service and would probably be quicker too.

The main issues though would be stock to run the service, paths South of Croydon and the service currently stops at all stations between Croydon and Clapham. If it could be fast between Clapham and Croydon (maybe just calling at Balham for LUL) it could reduce the journey tim, unless an extra service is added completely to give a half-hourly service between Croydon and MKC - but would the paths allow for it ?

Either way, that service, along with a possible extension of the FGW Reading-Gatwick service to Brighton, would be more likely and also more used than a XC service, which would be extremely slow and well off its current route if it ran via the WCML. A service via the North Downs would also be far too slow.

 

[RobShipway]

XC back to Brighton simply wont happen.

It would be far more better for the Southern WLL services to be extended down to Gatwick and Brighton again which would certainly give more options than a XC service and would probably be quicker too.

The main issues though would be stock to run the service, paths South of Croydon and the service currently stops at all stations between Croydon and Clapham. If it could be fast between Clapham and Croydon (maybe just calling at Balham for LUL) it could reduce the journey tim, unless an extra service is added completely to give a half-hourly service between Croydon and MKC - but would the paths allow for it ?

Either way, that service, along with a possible extension of the FGW Reading-Gatwick service to Brighton, would be more likely and also more used than a XC service, which would be extremely slow and well off its current route if it ran via the WCML. A service via the North Downs would also be far too slow.

I totally agree with the points that you made above, however I somehow think that a) The suggestions are too sensible and b) Unless approval for BML2 happens, the paths to extend either the Southern WLL service or/and the FGW Gatwick service will not exist.

 

[PHILIPE]

The service would have to be via Gatwick/Guildford as I don't think any customer would want to spend an extra hour getting to Reading via Basingstoke. But as has previously been stated there is not the paths. However, this is where I think that BML2 could help resolve some of those path issues.



I believe there also used to be at least two direct Brighton to Cardiff central trains which where operated by Arriva Trains Wales in the past as well as the FGW trains to Bristol. The Cardiff trains have now moved to start from Portsmouth due to the capacity needs on the West Coastway route. In making these changes the people planning the timetables, paths etc for the TOCs have lost sight on the needs of the passengers to the fact that lets just run a railway system that makes us money. I know each TOC has more and more demands for their services, but with the paths available there must be a way to keep the services and still provide the trains that the customers want and need.

ATW have never ran trains between Cardiff and Brighton or Portsmouth.
I don't think that anybody has come up with the idea yet that XC should run between Wick and Penzance as everywhere else seems to have been suggested in several threads over a period of time. Frankly some of these suggestions are becoming a bit of a bore now.
See Post #5

 

[swt_passenger]

ATW have never ran trains between Cardiff and Brighton or Portsmouth.

I reckon there might have been a train crew sharing arrangement at one stage, in the early stages of the transition from Wessex to FGW, but I'd agree ATW were never the operating TOC.

 

[PHILIPE]

I reckon there might have been a train crew sharing arrangement at one stage, in the early stages of the transition from Wessex to FGW, but I'd agree ATW were never the operating TOC.

ATW do shunts at Cardiff even now and, I think, still work 3 jobs to Bristol on behalf of FGW but have never operated them. The poster could have been confused when Wales and West was in existence.

 

[Class 170101]

My understanding is that there is very little if any paths that both the 2 tph can take between Leamington - Birmingham New Street and the local council in Solihull have also complained I believe that they should have a quick service going to New Street, being one of the most major places after Warwick on the route.. However, there is the Chiltern services that stop at Solihull that are also fast services into Birmingham.

I can see the appeal if there aren't any direct services betwen Solihull and New Street. Whilst Moor Street and New Street are a short walk apart the interchange is perhaps not the best if infirm or the weather is poor. Clearly also teher aremore destinations accessible at New Street than Moor Street.

 

[RobShipway]

I can see the appeal if there aren't any direct services betwen Solihull and New Street. Whilst Moor Street and New Street are a short walk apart the interchange is perhaps not the best if infirm or the weather is poor. Clearly also teher aremore destinations accessible at New Street than Moor Street.

In the not too distant future, I believe that the Midland Metro will be in the area between New Street and Moor Street, plus I believe there was talk of an escalated walkway being built between the two stations? If that is the case, hopefully it will have some cover to it.

You also have Curzon Street Sattion that will be used again within the next 10 years for HS2 in the local area.

 

[Andyjs247]

XC back to Brighton simply wont happen.

It would be far more better for the Southern WLL services to be extended down to Gatwick and Brighton again which would certainly give more options than a XC service and would probably be quicker too.

The main issues though would be stock to run the service, paths South of Croydon and the service currently stops at all stations between Croydon and Clapham. If it could be fast between Clapham and Croydon (maybe just calling at Balham for LUL) it could reduce the journey tim, unless an extra service is added completely to give a half-hourly service between Croydon and MKC - but would the paths allow for it ?

Either way, that service, along with a possible extension of the FGW Reading-Gatwick service to Brighton, would be more likely and also more used than a XC service, which would be extremely slow and well off its current route if it ran via the WCML. A service via the North Downs would also be far too slow.

I seem to remember there was a also a Reading-Brighton service which ran via Basingstoke, Eastleigh, Fareham and the West Coastway. Would have been mid 90s and I believe it was operated by SWT.

TBH I'm not sure what the end to end demand between Reading and Brighton ever was or how well used it was but probably in this case the diesel units were better used elsewhere. With electrification between Reading and Basingstoke in theory you could reintroduce the service which went to Brighton using dual voltage EMU stock.

There is not an obvious single best route between Reading and Brighton but, as seen elsewhere with XC, if there was a regular service hourly or even two hourly I'm sure it would be fairly well used, whichever way it went. Indeed when XC did run Manchester-Gatwick/Brighton the route varied - sometimes via Reading/GWML, sometimes via Croydon, sometimes via Guildford/Redhill, sometimes via WCML... it never seemed to be settled and nor was it frequent enough. But the issue I think boils down to capacity - what spare capacity there is can probably be better used elsewhere than XC running infrequently to Brighton.

 

[30907]

I believe there also used to be at least two direct Brighton to Cardiff central trains which where operated by Arriva Trains Wales in the past as well as the FGW trains to Bristol. The Cardiff trains have now moved to start from Portsmouth due to the capacity needs on the West Coastway route.

Leaving aside who the operator is, the Brighton-Bristol service is much the same as it was at Sprinterisation. As is the Cardiff-Pompey. It's just that the current requirement is for a regular Cardiff-Taunton, so the Brightons now go elsewhere.

And any new XC route would have to follow the regular interval all day trend - which BTW is the same pretty much everywhere in W Europe.

 

[Bevan Price]

Do you think that it will be possible for Cross Country services to be expanded to bring back services from Brighton and Portsmouth to Reading and the North, plus services from Dover, Eastbourne and Folkstone at all in a few years time once all the major OHLE works have been completed?

Not until the railways are deprivatised, or, at least only when John Major's crazy fragmented franchise system is reversed and we have a single national passenger network.

 

[swt_passenger]

I seem to remember there was a also a Reading-Brighton service which ran via Basingstoke, Eastleigh, Fareham and the West Coastway. Would have been mid 90s and I believe it was operated by SWT.

It ran until Dec 2007 and was replaced by the hourly Southern Brighton - Southampton service. Its reinstatement is also proposed every few weeks, and is equally unlikely. Importantly it only ran off peak and only 3 hourly to Reading, because the paths were used for Portsmouth trains in the peak periods.

I explained it in a bit more detail just over a month ago here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2151937&postcount=16

 

[RobShipway]

It ran until Dec 2007 and was replaced by the hourly Southern Brighton - Southampton service. Its reinstatement is also proposed every few weeks, and is equally unlikely. Importantly it only ran off peak and only 3 hourly to Reading, because the paths were used for Portsmouth trains in the peak periods.

I explained it in a bit more detail just over a month ago here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2151937&postcount=16

I am not saying that there should be that regular a service through the day to be honest. I think the 3 trains a day departing Brighton and two trains a day arriving Brighton would be sufficient if there is the paths. It also does not matter who the TOC running the service is, whether it is Southern, FGW or SWT,

As stated above, once Basingstoke is electrified a Brighton via Basingstoke service to Reading could be feasible if paths are available.

 

[swt_passenger]

As stated above, once Basingstoke is electrified a Brighton via Basingstoke service to Reading could be feasible if paths are available.

But they aren't available. The coastway paths are used by Southern for the Brighton - Southampton service, and the mix of fast and stopping services (and lack of passing facilities) means there are no paths for further services.

 

[DasLunatic]

Could XC run their Turbostars to Colchester instead of Stansted?

Colchester has a connection to Stansted Airport via the 133 Stansted Express... but have AGA got complete control of the line and will they block services to Brum?

 

[Steve14]

Provided that XC snap up some of the HSTs are released from FGW and if XC somehow get a hold of them, Here's what i recommend in terms of introducing some routes back in:

- Liverpool Lime Street to Reading (extension to Southampton or Guildford using HST)
- Ramsgate to Manchester Piccadilly (using Voyagers)
- Glasgow Central - Cardiff Central (using HSTs)
- Reading to Peterborough (using the East-West link operating Voyagers)
- Cardiff Central to Norwich (using doubled up Voyagers)

Improving their routes on the following:
- Cardiff Central to Nottingham (using Voyagers instead of Turbostars)
- Plymouth to Edinburgh/Glasgow (strictly using HSTs for their comfort given it's quite a distance!)

 

[RobShipway]

Could XC run their Turbostars to Colchester instead of Stansted?

Colchester has a connection to Stansted Airport via the 133 Stansted Express... but have AGA got complete control of the line and will they block services to Brum?

I think that you will find that is a non starter, in the same way as it is a non starter as people say about any routes from Brighton to Reading being served due to the fact that I believe that there is not the paths to Colchester as AGA does have the monopoly on the route.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I also suspect the demand and incentives to be had from Bury St Edmunds, Ipswich and Colchester wouldn't hold a candle to those of Cambridge and Stansted Airport.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'd like to see all the XC from Bournemouth extended to Poole all year round and in the summer every other one extended to Weymouth with all of them extended to Weymouth during the main summer holidays

 

[DarloRich]

what is it with the obsession with XC and Brighton on this board. I also love the "lets connect up two towns by XC random location generator" approach to service creation.

I suggest Bishop Auckland and Barrow via Skegness :roll:

 

[Steve14]

what is it with the obsession with XC and Brighton on this board. I also love the "lets connect up two towns by XC random location generator" approach to service creation.

I suggest Bishop Auckland and Barrow via Skegness :roll:

Lol tell me about it!! I reckon Middlesborough or Sunderland too

 

[Minstral25]

I am not saying that there should be that regular a service through the day to be honest. I think the 3 trains a day departing Brighton and two trains a day arriving Brighton would be sufficient if there is the paths. It also does not matter who the TOC running the service is, whether it is Southern, FGW or SWT,

As stated above, once Basingstoke is electrified a Brighton via Basingstoke service to Reading could be feasible if paths are available.

A 3x daily service anywhere is the packed South East is unlikely to be a goer.

More sense would be to extend XC's Reading terminators along the North Downs replacing the FGW semi-fasts to Gatwick all day - but that's only one train per hour and Gatwick needs two. Easy connection to Brighton from there though.

 

[Anvil1984]

A 3x daily service anywhere is the packed South East is unlikely to be a goer.

More sense would be to extend XC's Reading terminators along the North Downs replacing the FGW semi-fasts to Gatwick all day - but that's only one train per hour and Gatwick needs two. Easy connection to Brighton from there though.

Only one train every two hours terminates at Reading, the other goes to Southampton

 

[swt_passenger]

Only one train every two hours terminates at Reading, the other goes to Southampton

...and as I keep explaining in the various repeats of this thread, the former GW RUS and the latest Western Route Study both recommend that that second train is also extended to Southampton. That is the same Southampton that they already serve 1.5 tph, the one where the known passenger flows go, i.e. NOT towards Guildford, Gatwick, or Brighton