My idea for improved North East services

[Spaceflower]

It strikes me that apart from the ECML, connectivity between the north easts major towns and cities is atrocious(discounting private car), especially for rail.

A far more sensible option in my opinion would be to send a semi fast by the way of Teesside, Durham, Newcastle, Carlisle (possibly extending to Glasgow) and running an hourly (eg alternating XC/TPE/EC) service down the Durham coast and do away with the DMU and smaller stops altogether.

Middlesbrough to Hartlepool, Sunderland and Newcastle can be far out competed by bus currently due to the combination of low speed and long indirect route.
In addition, (and as a result) Sunderland and Hartlepool both have very poor connections to the outside world via rail . This route needs long distance services which would cater for both commuting and business markets imo. It would allow a more efficient use of rolling stock, cut down on average journey times and wouldn't cost an awful lot to implement. It would also free up paths on the ECML, which could be made use of more effectively than current. For example, a quick Teesside-Tyneside link via Stillington and Durham could reduce the current connection time between these two major conurbations by half to, at an uneducated guess, 50 minutes?
Lots of possibilities open up, including more capacity at Darlington for Bishop Auckland trains.
I also believe it would lead to a more competitive market, in both terms of operators and routes. One of the main objectives of privatisation right?
Overall, with the exception of a slightly reduced frequency of quick (direct)ECML services originating at Newcastle for the south, overall connectivity and service would be improved in a highly cost effective manner.

Or would it?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is this the day for suggesting changes to the North East and Carlisle?

There is little demand for now, and it certainly is going to require major timetable recasts to achieve anything like you are suggesting. It will have to wait till the next franchises decide what to do post electrification.

 

[Spaceflower]

Just dogs howling at the moon maybe.

 

[Suraggu]

The East Coast franchise specifying that bidders must include new services with the IEP fleet, it is possible that bidders could include new services to Yorkshire, Lincolnshire & Teeside.

Modern railways East Coast focus issue did have some thinking about a post IEP timetable, and they suggested with a Bi mode IEP A xx:08 Kings Cross -Lincoln/Middlesborough splitting the 2x 5 car sets at Newark Northgate.

 

[Jonny]

The other problem would be running a 25kV AC IEP unit under the 1.5kV DC wires for the Metro between just east of Pelaw and through Sunderland (towards South Hylton) - unless they were to use bi-modes on diesel... Even that might be touch and go depending on the ventilation in Sunderland station...

 

[Carlisle]

The other problem would be running a 25kV AC IEP unit under the 1.5kV DC wires for the Metro between just east of Pelaw and through Sunderland (towards South Hylton) - unless they were to use bi-modes on diesel... Even that might be touch and go depending on the ventilation in Sunderland station...

Does anyone know what was planned for the scenario that the mainline used by the metro should become part of a wider 25 kv electrification scheme in the future

 

[142094]

Does anyone know what was planned for the scenario that the mainline used by the metro should become part of a wider 25 kv electrification scheme in the future

Simple answer would be that when the extension was planned, the Durham Coast line would be low priority for any electrification schemes.

The majority of the problems the current routes in the NE have are low linespeeds and low frequency. One train per hour between Newcastle and Middlesbrough is poor, as is no Sunday service to Morpeth with Northern. Not a great advert for the railway when you can drive Newcastle - Carlisle or Newcastle to Middlesbrough in the same time (or quicker) as the train takes.

 

[Carlisle]

Simple answer would be that when the extension was planned, the Durham Coast line would be low priority for any electrification schemes.

The majority of the problems the current routes in the NE have are low linespeeds and low frequency. One train per hour between Newcastle and Middlesbrough is poor, as is no Sunday service to Morpeth with Northern. Not a great advert for the railway when you can drive Newcastle - Carlisle or Newcastle to Middlesbrough in the same time (or quicker) as the train takes.

Cheers for the info ,I did wonder if they had thought of future electrification plans

 

[SeanG]

The other problem would be running a 25kV AC IEP unit under the 1.5kV DC wires for the Metro between just east of Pelaw and through Sunderland (towards South Hylton)

New Metro stock to be bimode?

Even that might be touch and go depending on the ventilation in Sunderland station...

GC and NT use Sunderland as it is on diesel stock

 

[Eagle]

Does anyone know what was planned for the scenario that the mainline used by the metro should become part of a wider 25 kv electrification scheme in the future

Yes: nothing was planned.

 

[Spaceflower]

Simple answer would be that when the extension was planned, the Durham Coast line would be low priority for any electrification schemes.

The majority of the problems the current routes in the NE have are low linespeeds and low frequency. One train per hour between Newcastle and Middlesbrough is poor, as is no Sunday service to Morpeth with Northern. Not a great advert for the railway when you can drive Newcastle - Carlisle or Newcastle to Middlesbrough in the same time (or quicker) as the train takes.

Then what's the point if everyone wants to drive, especially on a Sunday?

 

[pennine]

I do think it is time that Middlesbrough has a direct link to London! Yes on another thread someone did say Eaglescliffe is near by, but for the town of its size, is that really practical or good enough? By no means am I saying this isn't an improvement from pre-GC days, but its still a change of train no matter whether its at York, Eaglescliffe or Darlington!

I was surprised that the fifth GC service wasn't put though to Middlesbrough but then we would have issues with it being an afternoon departure. The other method of reverse maneuver at Middlesbrough (as the Cleveland Executive did), although benefiting Middlesbrough and possibly Thornaby, passengers from Hartlepool and Sunderland wouldn't appreciate the added journey time. I admit, its a difficult issue, but one that a solution is needed!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The majority of the problems the current routes in the NE have are low linespeeds and low frequency.

And low usage.

Arriva used to run Hartlepool to Hexham every half hour, and that was cut back to Sunderland because nobody used it. It was then further cut back to Newcastle when the Metro extended.

 

[Spaceflower]

Yet GC find demand high enough to run 4 London trains per day.

The problem with that line with regards to local traffic is that there aren' any local stops. Just large towns and an inappropriate service imo.

 

[TUC]

Does anyone know what was planned for the scenario that the mainline used by the metro should become part of a wider 25 kv electrification scheme in the future

Simple answer would be that when the extension was planned, the Durham Coast line would be low priority for any electrification schemes.

The majority of the problems the current routes in the NE have are low linespeeds and low frequency. One train per hour between Newcastle and Middlesbrough is poor, as is no Sunday service to Morpeth with Northern. Not a great advert for the railway when you can drive Newcastle - Carlisle or Newcastle to Middlesbrough in the same time (or quicker) as the train takes.

Part of the problem is that Northern Rail doesn't even try to compete on fares with the express bus service. The Teesside-Newcastle rail service takes slightly longer than the bus but is much more expensive so why would anyone use it when Go North East's buses are cheaper, more frequent and have wifi.

The one area above that rail could readily seek to compete on is fares but this is Northern Rail, a company whose approach to the commercial market is even more old-fashioned than their trains s.

 

[Anvil1984]

I see Grand Central mentioned but quite a lot of their revenue will be on the Northallerton / York stretch and off their share of "ANY PERMITTED" tickets from those locations. Probably north of Northallerton you are lucky to have 50 passengers except when Sunderland are at home / in the capital.

Also I cannot accept the notion that Sunderland / Hartlepool are cut off either you mention they have 4 direct London services which is more than most towns and most journeys from the Durham Coast have a 10 minute cross platform connection at Thornaby (no stairs) for passengers travelling to York / Leeds or Manchester"

It is said the journey times can not rival the buses. I find that hard to believe too. With the exception of the National Express coaches the only journey time where bus takes the same amount of time is Middlesborough &Stockton all the way to Newcastle. Sunderland to Hartlepool is double the train time travelling in the bus so is Sunderland and Hartlepool to Middlesborough.

That being said the service isn't perfect. Same with anywhere on Northern network and too many 142s and the Sunday service could be better.

 

[Spaceflower]

I see Grand Central mentioned but quite a lot of their revenue will be on the Northallerton / York stretch and off their share of "ANY PERMITTED" tickets from those locations. Probably north of Northallerton you are lucky to have 50 passengers except when Sunderland are at home / in the capital.

Also I cannot accept the notion that Sunderland / Hartlepool are cut off either you mention they have 4 direct London services which is more than most towns and most journeys from the Durham Coast have a 10 minute cross platform connection at Thornaby (no stairs) for passengers travelling to York / Leeds or Manchester"

It is said the journey times can not rival the buses. I find that hard to believe too. With the exception of the National Express coaches the only journey time where bus takes the same amount of time is Middlesborough &Stockton all the way to Newcastle. Sunderland to Hartlepool is double the train time travelling in the bus so is Sunderland and Hartlepool to Middlesborough.

That being said the service isn't perfect. Same with anywhere on Northern network and too many 142s and the Sunday service could be better.

All valid points. However, with regards to the current level of service provided by GC this further validates my point. This long distance service could be ran more effectively by removing the local trains and introducing hourly long distance trains imo.
My point about bus competition was centred on Middlesbrough-Hartlepool/Sunderland/Newcastle journeys only as under my suggestion, it is these journeys that would no longer be served by rail. Buses (such as the x9/10) would prove more effective on this route. Also journey time between Newcastle and Middlesbrough could be significantly reduced by going via Durham.
As for the point you make about accessibility of Sunderland and Hartlepool, believe me, the journey time required to get from Sunderland or Hartlepool to any destination beyond Middlesbrough is a big problem in my opinion. Ignoring GC trains for a moment, journey time to Thornaby is slow and the frequency and connections times at Thornaby long and uncomfortable. Then, another change will be required for destinations other than York, Leeds or Manchester. Back to GC services, these are a proven success, you can't argue with that as frequency has increased to a maximum possible under current capacity constraints. The demand is there. But even with these services, flexibility and destination choice is limited beyond York.

Anyway, the current services aren't well used outside the peaks. This needs to be improved. Besides car use dominates these local trips, it is long distance services were the potential demand is imo.

 

[mildertduck]

Ok, I live in Durham, and used to use public transport frequently. I now own a car.

One journey I do regularly is Durham - Hartlepool. This can't be done nicely by any public transport - by train it's via Newcastle or Darlington and is quite pricey, by bus - yes, there are direct buses, but it takes nearly 3 times as long as driving. So for me, a car is a no-brainer for this journey.

If light rail were introduced on a new Durham - Sunderland route, I'd probably use that and then the coast line to get to HPL. But as it is now, I'll drive.

R.

 

[pennine]

All valid points. However, with regards to the current level of service provided by GC this further validates my point. This long distance service could be ran more effectively by removing the local trains and introducing hourly long distance trains imo.
My point about bus competition was centred on Middlesbrough-Hartlepool/Sunderland/Newcastle journeys only as under my suggestion, it is these journeys that would no longer be served by rail. Buses (such as the x9/10) would prove more effective on this route. Also journey time between Newcastle and Middlesbrough could be significantly reduced by going via Durham.
As for the point you make about accessibility of Sunderland and Hartlepool, believe me, the journey time required to get from Sunderland or Hartlepool to any destination beyond Middlesbrough is a big problem in my opinion. Ignoring GC trains for a moment, journey time to Thornaby is slow and the frequency and connections times at Thornaby long and uncomfortable. Then, another change will be required for destinations other than York, Leeds or Manchester. Back to GC services, these are a proven success, you can't argue with that as frequency has increased to a maximum possible under current capacity constraints. The demand is there. But even with these services, flexibility and destination choice is limited beyond York.

Anyway, the current services aren't well used outside the peaks. This needs to be improved. Besides car use dominates these local trips, it is long distance services were the potential demand is imo.

All of the above I agree with. The X9/10 are excellent services offering good value for money, they also offer free wifi and plus sockets and time wise are almost identical to the direct train counterpart (via the Durham coast).

Another point, as someone who is born and bred in Saltburn and now living in Redcar, a journey to Newcastle most people will always change at Darlington and continue up the East Coast Main Line as it is a quicker journey without any extra charge.

Back onto GC, a further improvement could be made (pathing permits of course) to make an additional call at Doncaster, as this would provide further connection to East Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire, although not appealing to businesses, it does provide more choice and better connections for leisure travelers.

I know what ever happens, you can't please everyone, but I think it is high time now that Middlesbrough has it direct London service.

 

[Anvil1984]

As for the point you make about accessibility of Sunderland and Hartlepool, believe me, the journey time required to get from Sunderland or Hartlepool to any destination beyond Middlesbrough is a big problem in my opinion. Ignoring GC trains for a moment, journey time to Thornaby is slow and the frequency and connections times at Thornaby long and uncomfortable..

I find the above majorly flawed in my opinion

The connection time northbound from a TPE to Northern service at Thornaby is 16 minutes (TPE arrive at xx 21,Northern at xx37) , the southbound connection time is about the same (Northern due in at xx39 and out at xx55), You don't really want it much tighter in case something happens up the line.

If your travelling from Sunderland to York you have a choice of 5 trains an hour changing at Newcastle or at least one an hour going southbound both taking roughly the same time again Sunderland is not isolated, and an hour and half from Hartlepool to York isn't that bad. The car from town centre is 1 hour 15. Ok the time with the connection is slightly longer but not a big issue and as again for connecting at Thornaby uncomfortable a 10 metre walk across a Zebra crossing and a manned waiting room....... I cant see it being a chore at all

Without Northern getting some more faster stock they won't be allowed more than a token service via Durham due to having 75 mph stock which would waste paths and hold up expresses (not much room Newcastle to Darlington with 2 x XC, 2 x EC and soon 2 x TPE an hour)

The linespeed on Durham Coast I reckon with the infrastructure is never going to get past 75 mph so the maximum saving on journey time would be a whopping 5 minutes.

Even if you ran an hourly express down the coast I don't think you would get more passengers than a local stopping service because the ain passenger flows are from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough, and if you say that the express can stop at Middlesbrough on the way that build in time (in fact the same amount of time a change at Thornaby does at the moment)


As for bus journeys the X9 and X10 take exactly 1hr20 Middlesbrough to Newcastle
(http://www.simplygo.com/download/publication/54114.06), and the trains 1hr 18 (xx32 from Boro arriving Newcastle at xx50, the trains also continue to Metrocentre whereas the buses don't and there are often a lot of passengers going to the Metrocentre especially on a weekend // Christmas time.

Good luck telling someone from Hartlepool they'll have to take a bus taking an extra 20 mins to work in Boro because you'd prefer more trains to London
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All of the above I agree with. The X9/10 are excellent services offering good value for money, they also offer free wifi and plus sockets and time wise are almost identical to the direct train counterpart (via the Durham coast).

Another point, as someone who is born and bred in Saltburn and now living in Redcar, a journey to Newcastle most people will always change at Darlington and continue up the East Coast Main Line as it is a quicker journey without any extra charge.

Back onto GC, a further improvement could be made (pathing permits of course) to make an additional call at Doncaster, as this would provide further connection to East Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire, although not appealing to businesses, it does provide more choice and better connections for leisure travelers.

I know what ever happens, you can't please everyone, but I think it is high time now that Middlesbrough has it direct London service.

Its not just pathing that'd stop GC stopping at Doncaster, I can't see the other TOCs permitting it due to revenue abstraction

Good point about passengers at Saltburn changing at Darlington because its faster, you can often get a good connection too. People at Boro of course have that choice but since the change in fares its about a quid more expensive to travel via Darlington.

The X9 and X10 are indeed good service no doubt and shows what can be done if a company was allowed to put some of its profits back into new vehicles, however they are also allowed to cut early morning and loss making routes willy nilly too which the railway cant, (grumbles about getting a taxi to work)

 

[Spaceflower]

Believe me, the combined effect of frequency, connection time, and slow journeys mount up. This is especially important if you consider the wider hinterland of Hartlepool and Sunderland and door to door journey times.
In addition, the service is worse on a Sunday and non existant late evening.
And its not the length of walk involved in connecting that make it uncomfortable. Its the 'soft' factors. A cold, dank station and cold, dank trains. And a lack of basic facilities.

An express bus utilising the trunk routes of the A689 and A19 would offer a competitive time to the current train service to Middlesbrough, even if such a service doesn't currently exist. GoAhead have already identified the market case for Middlesbrough-Newcastle by bus, remarkable when you think about it. It is half hourly and always well loaded. These FACTS of success provide good indicators of the required direction we need to go.
The re-routing of long distance services down the coast would actually free up paths on the ECML.

More importantly, non of this would involve significant capital investment in my opinion and would offer significant benefits overall.

 

[Anvil1984]

Believe me, the combined effect of frequency, connection time, and slow journeys mount up. This is especially important if you consider the wider hinterland of Hartlepool and Sunderland and door to door journey times.
In addition, the service is worse on a Sunday and non existant late evening.
And its not the length of walk involved in connecting that make it uncomfortable. Its the 'soft' factors. A cold, dank station and cold, dank trains. And a lack of basic facilities.

An express bus utilising the trunk routes of the A689 and A19 would offer a competitive time to the current train service to Middlesbrough, even if such a service doesn't currently exist. GoAhead have already identified the market case for Middlesbrough-Newcastle by bus, remarkable when you think about it. It is half hourly and always well loaded. These FACTS of success provide good indicators of the required direction we need to go.
The re-routing of long distance services down the coast would actually free up paths on the ECML.

I hate it when people unnecessarily capitalise "FACT"S because they think their opinion is more important then somebody elses

I hope when you use your "FACT"s you take away the amount of passengers travelling free on ENCTS passes which there are probably a few, and you feel the passengers should be put on buses from Middlesbrough to Sunderland if this is the case why is that service (X7) not doing so well and having journeys being withdrawn. For journey usage I reckon in passenger numbers the train and bus are equal.

I cant also see a lot of passengers being peeved that their Scotland / Newcastle - York and Beyond taking at least 30 minutes longer as it needs to pick up passengers at Sunderland and Hartlepool and post 2016 its only likely to be the XCs that can be sent that way as both EC* and TPE services will be ran by electrics and unable to run via the coast (* with the exception of the Inverness and Aberdeen services)

 

[Spaceflower]

I hate it when people unnecessarily capitalise "FACT"S because they think their opinion is more important then somebody elses

I hope when you use your "FACT"s you take away the amount of passengers travelling free on ENCTS passes which there are probably a few, and you feel the passengers should be put on buses from Middlesbrough to Sunderland if this is the case why is that service (X7) not doing so well and having journeys being withdrawn. For journey usage I reckon in passenger numbers the train and bus are equal.

I cant also see a lot of passengers being peeved that their Scotland / Newcastle - York and Beyond taking at least 30 minutes longer as it needs to pick up passengers at Sunderland and Hartlepool and post 2016 its only likely to be the XCs that can be sent that way as both EC* and TPE services will be ran by electrics and unable to run via the coast (* with the exception of the Inverness and Aberdeen services)

Yeah, well facts are important because decisions need to be made on existing evidence.
The route of the X7 means journeys are long and its not on a key flow imo(Sunderland-Middlesbrough).

There will be losers in this proposal, as in all schemes, I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think I'd envisage Newcastle terminators ideal for re-routing to minimise the impact of longer journeys in this regard. Overall, I think this would have alot more benefits.

I agree with you on the electrification of the E-W route, but with regards to HS2, if it goes ahead, I believe this becomes alot more important to ensure entire communities in the North East is not left behind. And its a cost-effective solution imo.

Don't hate me by the way, I find this an interesting topic as I'm sure you do, and I am taking your points seriously.

 

[pennine]

I find the above majorly flawed in my opinion

The connection time northbound from a TPE to Northern service at Thornaby is 16 minutes (TPE arrive at xx 21,Northern at xx37) , the southbound connection time is about the same (Northern due in at xx39 and out at xx55), You don't really want it much tighter in case something happens up the line.

If your travelling from Sunderland to York you have a choice of 5 trains an hour changing at Newcastle or at least one an hour going southbound both taking roughly the same time again Sunderland is not isolated, and an hour and half from Hartlepool to York isn't that bad. The car from town centre is 1 hour 15. Ok the time with the connection is slightly longer but not a big issue and as again for connecting at Thornaby uncomfortable a 10 metre walk across a Zebra crossing and a manned waiting room....... I cant see it being a chore at all

Without Northern getting some more faster stock they won't be allowed more than a token service via Durham due to having 75 mph stock which would waste paths and hold up expresses (not much room Newcastle to Darlington with 2 x XC, 2 x EC and soon 2 x TPE an hour)

The linespeed on Durham Coast I reckon with the infrastructure is never going to get past 75 mph so the maximum saving on journey time would be a whopping 5 minutes.

Even if you ran an hourly express down the coast I don't think you would get more passengers than a local stopping service because the ain passenger flows are from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough, and if you say that the express can stop at Middlesbrough on the way that build in time (in fact the same amount of time a change at Thornaby does at the moment)


As for bus journeys the X9 and X10 take exactly 1hr20 Middlesbrough to Newcastle
(http://www.simplygo.com/download/publication/54114.06), and the trains 1hr 18 (xx32 from Boro arriving Newcastle at xx50, the trains also continue to Metrocentre whereas the buses don't and there are often a lot of passengers going to the Metrocentre especially on a weekend // Christmas time.

Good luck telling someone from Hartlepool they'll have to take a bus taking an extra 20 mins to work in Boro because you'd prefer more trains to London
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Its not just pathing that'd stop GC stopping at Doncaster, I can't see the other TOCs permitting it due to revenue abstraction

Good point about passengers at Saltburn changing at Darlington because its faster, you can often get a good connection too. People at Boro of course have that choice but since the change in fares its about a quid more expensive to travel via Darlington.

The X9 and X10 are indeed good service no doubt and shows what can be done if a company was allowed to put some of its profits back into new vehicles, however they are also allowed to cut early morning and loss making routes willy nilly too which the railway cant, (grumbles about getting a taxi to work)

I never knew about the 'Route Hartlepool ticket from Boro to Newcastle, learn something new all the time!!! But if i were to get the train from boro to Newcastle with my Y-P, the 30p saving isn't enough to make me want to go up the coast way lol. This is one case where sometimes changing is quicker. I'm surprised there isn't a 'HPL route' from Saltburn and Redcar to Newcastle, as there is to Berwick (again only saving like 10p).

Without meaning to go off topic, I looked at the Duo's from Boro to Newcastle and as the rules state, the return journey can't be made after 1530 departure to 1830, but pay the extra £3 from Saltburn, there is no time restriction coming back (I'm a boring ..... lol)

 

[Anvil1984]

Yeah, well facts are important because decisions need to be made on existing evidence.
The route of the X7 means journeys are long and its not on a key flow imo(Sunderland-Middlesbrough).

There will be losers in this proposal, as in all schemes, I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think I'd envisage Newcastle terminators ideal for re-routing to minimise the impact of longer journeys in this regard. Overall, I think this would have alot more benefits.

I agree with you on the electrification of the E-W route, but with regards to HS2, if it goes ahead, I believe this becomes alot more important to ensure entire communities in the North East is not left behind. And its a cost-effective solution imo.

Don't hate me by the way, I find this an interesting topic as I'm sure you do, and I am taking your points seriously.

I do find people opinions seriously especially on these routes because I work on the trains we are talking about, but I hate it when people overstate their hand not the person themselves

Their will be problems with putting additional long distance services through Sunderland and that's slotting between Metro services and another reason services between Newcastle and Middlesbrough take longer than they need to as you usually crawl behind one from Stadium of Light (if you are lucky) then wait for a signal at Sunderland, if a long distance service loses its path in this stretch it can knock on and effect services further down thee line. With GC they are lucky as the services start at Sunderland. Initially after the Metro was extended to Sunderland Northern used to have a half hourly service between Newcastle and Sunderland (with extensions) but Nexus had this reduced to hourly as it was impacting on the punctuality of there services (don't know what the current excuse for their currents issues are though)

Also you have the odd freight coming up the line to Tyne Yard / using Durham Coast instead of ECML which is a capacity constraint / keeps speeds down and again if a XC gets behind one of those a 5 min delay at Hartlepool could translate in 20 at Birmingham easily (lose your slot, get behind a stopper Doncaster - Sheffield and again Derby to Birmingham).

I too don't want to see the North East "left behind" but closing the local stations down the line won't help a thing. If you think it will I implore you to go on the 1230 from Middlesbrough when Sunderland are at home with a 1500 kick off.

The best the line can hope for really is a better Sunday service and when the NW gets wired that some of the 156s get sent across to give Heaton a uniform fleet so we get more seats and a better train atmosphere
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I never knew about the 'Route Hartlepool ticket from Boro to Newcastle, learn something new all the time!!! But if i were to get the train from boro to Newcastle with my Y-P, the 30p saving isn't enough to make me want to go up the coast way lol. This is one case where sometimes changing is quicker. I'm surprised there isn't a 'HPL route' from Saltburn and Redcar to Newcastle, as there is to Berwick (again only saving like 10p).

Without meaning to go off topic, I looked at the Duo's from Boro to Newcastle and as the rules state, the return journey can't be made after 1530 departure to 1830, but pay the extra £3 from Saltburn, there is no time restriction coming back (I'm a boring ..... lol)

just been on BRFares.com Saltburn to Newcastle has a restriction code of NS so the restriction still applies, Not to be confused with the Saltburn to Darlo / Bishop ones which don't have an afternoon restriction. A load of anomalies on Durham Coast route, where you can ge Anytime Returns from etc

 

[Jonny]

GC and NT use Sunderland as it is on diesel stock

I seem to remember reading somewhere on this forum that the GC HST only uses one power car departing from Sunderland and then turns the other (usually back) one on after clearing the station. With the low linespeeds (about 20mph IIRC for the first part, based on the public-download sectional appendix), there isn't much call for traction with only five or so coaches.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

People would be surprised how busy the Northern services can get along the Coast, i've been on plenty where it's full and standing - even during midday services.

The fact it links to the MetroCentre is a big must - and people use it primarily for this reason, it's fast enough, and you don't have the problem of traffic.

However, a half hourly service from the MetroCentre to Middlesbrough/Nunthorpe would work wonders (where pathing permits), giving people a choice of when to travel, and opening up new opportunities.

For this to work though, I'd probably suggest a new station at Teesside Park to be installed as with the Tees Metro proposal, to further increase possible passenger numbers - and obviously linking James Cook would be a great proposal.

The one where Northern often falls over on is late-night services. When there's something big on in Newcastle, whether that be at the MetroRadio Arena or elsewhere, there's just no way of getting back - which is a shame. The last train is before ten I believe, but many acts don't actually finish until around this time... so it's leave early or don't go! One extra, later train would also work wonders and would probably increase people's thoughts on the railway as a service option rather than inconvenience at this time of night.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Northern trains cannot go via the ECML due to pathing restrictions. There used to be a two-hourly Newcastle-Darlington-Saltburn service, but this was withdrawn following XC's Operation Princess. That was why some XC services began calling at Chester le Street, to replace the missing Northern trains. All that remains of this service is a couple of down trains in the morning and one up train in the late evening.

GrandCentral do well on the service because they are carrying passengers for London. They don't carry huge numbers of local passengers.

There are some trains on the Durham Coast that are busy, especially the 1630 and 1730 out of Middlesbrough, but the daytime trains are certainly not full and standing. Saturday trains are usually busier, with the shopping and the football at Newcastle, Sunderland or Middlesbrough (at least one of them will be at home each weekend).

I certainly do not see the point of sending intercity trains down the Durham Coast, even before considering the capacity issues- Grand Central faces a lot of initial opposition from Nexus due to capacity constraints at Sunderland. It is a slow line, sending trains down the Coast typically adds at least 45-60 minutes to the journey time, and without major infrastructure improvements that line speed isn't going to change. I don't see how anyone can justify the cost of the infrastructure upgrades needed.

Hartlepool is a decent sized town and should theoretically sustain a better train service, but when Arriva tried it the service was withdrawn due to lack of use.

 

[tbtc]

All valid points. However, with regards to the current level of service provided by GC this further validates my point. This long distance service could be ran more effectively by removing the local trains and introducing hourly long distance trains imo

Which local trains would you "remove"?

Already we see Chester le Street served by 100/125mph stock on hundred mile (plus) journeys because there's no local service through Durham.

Alnmouth similarly has no "local" service during the daytime, so passengers from London/ Birmingham to Edinburgh are inconvenienced by the need to slow down the 125mph trains.

GC find demand high enough to run 4 London trains per day

GC tap in to the lucrative London - York market by doing so. Would they run so many trains to/from Sunderland if they didn't get the York money?

 

[thenorthern]

A think I would like to see in the north east is a new mainline station serving Gatshead and a station serving Washington. Both of those I think would benefit from having a station.