My idea for restrictions to cycles on trains

[47513 Severn]

Further to the recent thread about the health and safety aspects of overcrowded trains...Following a recent change of job I have now started commuting from King's Cross to Letchworth in the mornings and back in the evenings and I have been amazed by the number of bikes being taken on trains on the route. On the Stevenage - Hitchin - Letchworth section in particular it is common to find two or three full sized bikes crammed into every doorway of a four coach train. I'm pretty sure luggage stowed in the same way would constitute an obstruction of the emergency escape routes.

It's going to be controversial but is it time for a ban on all non folding bikes on trains? The current system of selective bans for certain periods or routes doesn't seem to work. Carrying these cumbersome objects on trains is either practical or it isn't regardless of the time of day, and I believe it isn't. Nobody would consider taking a bike on a bus but it is somehow acceptable on trains with little more space.

Some will point out that modern trains don't have anywhere to stow the bikes but the old slam door suburban units would never have coped with the number I'm seeing in their limited van area. I suspect the real difference was the presence of a guard on the older trains who would prevent more bikes being loaded than there was space for. Perhaps the TOC's claims of 'welcoming cyclists' are little more than an admission that they are unable to enforce a common sense approach.

Thoughts?

47513

 

[SeanG]

As a cyclist, I perhaps think that a ban should be implemented on Peak hour trains only.

What of the many cyclists who use trains a vital part of their journey, over rural routes that are quietly used if there is an outright ban?

 

[yorkie]

Further to the recent thread about the health and safety aspects of overcrowded trains...Following a recent change of job I have now started commuting from King's Cross to Letchworth in the mornings and back in the evenings and I have been amazed by the number of bikes being taken on trains on the route. On the Stevenage - Hitchin - Letchworth section in particular it is common to find two or three full sized bikes crammed into every doorway of a four coach train. I'm pretty sure luggage stowed in the same way would constitute an obstruction of the emergency escape routes.

It's going to be controversial but is it time for a ban on all non folding bikes on trains? The current system of selective bans for certain periods or routes doesn't seem to work. Carrying these cumbersome objects on trains is either practical or it isn't regardless of the time of day, and I believe it isn't. Nobody would consider taking a bike on a bus but it is somehow acceptable on trains with little more space.

Disagree.

Yes people do take bikes on buses, for an example see http://www.iwight.com/news/Bike-buses-to-come-into-service-under-new

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Where a train is an EMU or DMU, for services where there's always lots of people with bikes or lots of luggage, would it be feasible to have a "luggage car" which could be attached at one end of the route and uncoupled from the train at the other end, returning on another service with high numbers of bikes and luggage.

Would it make much difference for safety from a guard and/or dispatchers point of view?

 

[najaB]

Would it make much difference for safety from a guard and/or dispatchers point of view?

You'd have problems retrieving bikes and/or luggage at intermediate stations where the platforms aren't long enough for +1 carriages.

 

[dcsprior]

So the suggestion is that trains which have a dedicated cycle-storage area, or a whopping great luggage area such as the Mk4 DVTs, will not accept cycles - because they cause problems on some other trains?

Surely if change is needed (I've never seen cycles causing problems on trains, but I can believe they do in some places) then making reservations compulsory for cycles would be a better way forward.

 

[Bill Stanier]

The combination of bicycle and train is an eco-friendly and healthy way to get about. That modern trains don't cater well for bikes is unfortunate. Yes, the tocs want to maximise seating but I think there is a debate to be had here to consider allowing more cycle space as cycling is becoming ever more popular.

 

[Dr_Paul]

South-West Trains have bike bans in the morning rush-hour for up trains to Waterloo and in the evening rush-hour for down trains from Waterloo. This does not apply to foldaway bikes, which don't take up any more room than a moderately-sized bag. This makes sense as trains can get very crowded, and a bike not only takes up a lot of space, it also is hugely obstructive when a train is crowded.

SWT stock does have a row in one carriage per four-car set of fold-up seats which is to be used for bikes. However, if people are already sitting on them, then this can cause a problem if someone boards with a bike, as the bike will then have to be kept in the vestibule by the doors. If more than a couple of people have bikes, then other vestibules have to be used.

The biggest problem I've found when taking my bike up to London is that afternoon services can get pretty crowded, and bikes <i>are</i> inconvenient for other passengers, far worse than baby-buggies and luggage. Late-night trains can sometimes be short (one four-car set rather than two), and also can be quite crowded. I find the best thing is to be as considerate as possible to other passengers when taking a bike on a train, and some sort of compromise is normally worked out.

One useful thing about SWT is that they have reduced the number of seats on the 455 and some of the 450 class sets, and this makes it easier to travel with a bike. Of course, back in the days of Mark 1 stock, the guards would allow me to put my bike in the luggage compartment; those days have gone, and it is also true that for most of the time the luggage compartment stood empty, parcels traffic being a thing of the past, and thus reduced the number of seats per train.

Altogether, although I find taking my bike up to London on the train is convenient for me -- I live too far out to cycle into Central London -- bikes and trains don't mix easily when the latter get crowded. Even if official bike space is made available on all stock, it would in any case soon get filled by standing passengers in a crowded train. There are no easy answers; I find that it's best to try and sort out things on an informal manner, most people are reasonable enough.

 

[Jonny]

With the proliferation of bicycle bags, cycle restrictions will be harder to enforce (assuming the bicycles are "bagged up"). Although they would (in theory at least) fall foul of the National Rail conditions of carriage, this would make it much harder to enforce. After all, how many platform staff routinely carry tape measures?

 

[TheEdge]

With the proliferation of bicycle bags, cycle restrictions will be harder to enforce (assuming the bicycles are "bagged up"). Although they would (in theory at least) fall foul of the National Rail conditions of carriage, this would make it much harder to enforce. After all, how many platform staff routinely carry tape measures?

I find more problems are caused by pannier bags, baskets and various hipster additions to bikes than anything else. Also people who buy excessive road bikes for their mile and a half cycle...

"Normal" bikes, no bags and normal handles, I can easily get 6-8 on a 156 or 153, chuck in the panniers and things, half that.

 

[Smudger105e]

What, pray, is an excessive road bike?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd love to know what an excessive road bike is too, as the professional-standard road bikes tend to be significantly narrower than a plodding hybrid.

The problem is not the use of bicycles, it is the fact there's nowhere to put them, and often the cycle area has tip-up seats too. It's a particular problem on the TPE 185s, and possibly other Desiro trains, because it sets up a conflict where there's no need.

Cycles are no more or less cumbersome than many of the big suitcases I see on airport trains.

 

[krus_aragon]

SWT stock does have a row in one carriage per four-car set of fold-up seats which is to be used for bikes. However, if people are already sitting on them, then this can cause a problem if someone boards with a bike, as the bike will then have to be kept in the vestibule by the doors. If more than a couple of people have bikes, then other vestibules have to be used.

Arriva's 175s have a similar designated area for two bicycles (in coach C), but the pair of tip-up seats aren't the problem. The area tends to have luggage placed there instead. Normally one or two suitcases aren't too much of an obstacle, as one can either lean a bike against them or draw the luggage forward and lift the bike over to lash it against the wall. But as we go into the summer months, the 1718 departure from Bangor tends to be crammed full of ferry passengers' suitcases, leaving the commuting cyclists standing with their steeds in the gangway. In light of this, I opt to leave my bike the station if at all possible now, and walk the far end of my commute.

What, pray, is an excessive road bike?

I can think of excessively priced road bikes, but they tend to be thin, scrawny, carbon fibre things, so take up less space than your average mountain bike.

 

[TheEdge]

The bike is narrow, the handles however seem to be both much wider than normal and the folded down ends mean they can't be cleverly stacked end to end.

 

[LowLevel]

With the proliferation of bicycle bags, cycle restrictions will be harder to enforce (assuming the bicycles are "bagged up"). Although they would (in theory at least) fall foul of the National Rail conditions of carriage, this would make it much harder to enforce. After all, how many platform staff routinely carry tape measures?

Byelaw 14 makes it very easy - if you put your bike anywhere on the train (or indeed the Railway) except in the labelled cycle space, it may be removed and stored, or clamped by an authorised person - therefore if you leave your bike in a train doorway the guard or the driver on a DOO train is perfectly entitled to take it off (into safe storage, they still have to take reasonable care of it) if in their opinion it may cause a hindrance to any person or Operator on the railway.

Just because it's in a bag does not mean it is not a bike.

Basically, if it's in the way, it can be got rid of unless it's in the bike space in which case it has every right to be there and the byelaw allows for that.

 

[alexjames]

I've long had a problem with bikes on short or shortish distance trains. I am in no way critical of cyclists who wish to go from, for example, Euston to Fort William for a biking holiday.

As others have said, they should be banned from peak hours trains (and often are on routes into London). Difficult to argue against that.

My problem is with those who go just a few miles on trains. Why? I fail to see why they do not use their bikes in the usual way ie by cycling along the roads. Cheaper than the train as well.

 

[lj9090]

My problem is with those who go just a few miles on trains. Why? I fail to see why they do not use their bikes in the usual way ie by cycling along the roads. Cheaper than the train as well.

Because they're not going to anywhere near that station and cycling much more than a few miles once they get off? Those few miles on the train could reduce a journey too far for them to cycle into something quite possible.

I once got asked by the guard why I was after a ticket Brockenhurst to Beaulieu Road, when I could just save a couple of quid and cycle it in 30-40 minutes. I could indeed, but heading to Hythe it meant 30 minutes cycling instead of over an hour. Popping to see a friend for the afternoon I really didn't fancy an hour each way.

I also frequently travel from Bournemouth to Branksome with my bike, although that is covered by my season ticket so cycling being cheaper doesn't really come into it. I cycle to Poole from there, it avoids a couple of hills. If I was to cycle all the way then half the time I'd opt to drive instead.

 

[jon0844]

On the Stevenage - Hitchin - Letchworth section in particular it is common to find two or three full sized bikes crammed into every doorway of a four coach train.

Go north of Cambridge on a Sunday and see what happens when a local cycling club decides to use the train to just go one or two stops then!!

4 car train and goodness knows how many bikes. Some on seats, some in the bays, some in the aisles and goodness knows how many in the doorways.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It's common to criticise the industry for making decisions which are out of touch with demand. On the other hand, I would tend to welcome proposals to change service levels where they are informed by actual passenger demand. So, when I read observations such as this one, I can only assume that it is evidence in support of increasing the provision:

. . . . . . I have been amazed by the number of bikes being taken on trains on the route.

Quite how we get from evidence of a high demand to the conclusion that the solution is to reduce capacity leaves me speechless.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Well, why not, instead of the bike being took on the train in the first place, have a provision similar to the Boris Bikes at each station where you have to, as an example, you'd have to pay a security of £2 and you'd get to use it, and any other stations for a period of 24 hours (with a incremental increase of £1/ 24 hours for a maximum of 72 hours). Then there would be no need in the first place to take cycles on a train!

 

[47513 Severn]

What seems clear is any solution that doesn't involve greater or total restrictions is going to cost money. Perhaps the answer is a charge to convey a bicycle on the train, around the child fare maybe, with the revenue going towards better provision. I don't think additional vehicles for bikes (detachable or permanent) is realistic but how about better secure cycle facilities at stations that would allow those making commuter type journeys to keep a bike at both ends. Alternatively it might pay for more staff to enforce the existing restrictions at the point of boarding, if someone arrives at Kings Cross with a bicycle on a restricted train there is very little that can be done after the event.

Unfortunately dealing with excessive demand with restrictions is a fact of life on our modern railway, that's why the restrictions we have are already there. There are all sorts of ideological arguments against (I'm surprised we haven't had someone suggesting first class is removed to make way for non paying bikes yet) but we are dealing with the reality here.

The Cambridge example doesn't count. Cambridge cyclists are a different species, one which considers itself superior to humans and entitled to all of the space in the world whether on the roads, trains or anywhere else.

I have also seen bikes on buses but that was in Fort Worth, Texas where the buses have racks fitted on the front below the windscreen for passengers to hang their bikes.

47513

 

[jon0844]

I saw buses in Las Vegas with bikes held outside (and racks inside too) and was quite surprised. Surprised that people actually used bicycles in the US!

 

[DownSouth]

What seems clear is any solution that doesn't involve greater or total restrictions is going to cost money. Perhaps the answer is a charge to convey a bicycle on the train, around the child fare maybe, with the revenue going towards better provision.

In Adelaide a bike being carried on peak trains (before 9am, then 3pm-6pm) is charged an extra Concession fare (as enjoyed by pensioners and full-time tertiary students).

Charging for bikes has a chilling effect though, and is only effective as a rather primitive form of capacity management on peak services where there is no will to invest in getting the right amount of rolling stock for the demand. There certainly won't be any meaningful amount of revenue raised from it, a net decrease is more likely as cyclists paying a fare for themselves will vote with their feet and leave the system with no fare rather than one.

As a result of these anti-bike policies, only one of the four main lines sees any more than a handful of bikes across both daily peaks. Most of those are on just one line which weaves around at a constant gradient of 2.8% for 13km while the direct road route is 3.5km with an average gradient of 8% and maximum of 22%. On my road bike I can beat a passenger train up that climb (but not a freight train which charges up the hill non-stop with over 10,000kW of modern EMD power) but it's impossible on a heavily laden commuter bike.

I have also seen bikes on buses but that was in Fort Worth, Texas where the buses have racks fitted on the front below the windscreen for passengers to hang their bikes.

They have them in Canberra (the capital of Australia) as well, and this has been cited as one of the reasons Canberra has the highest proportion of sustainable transport (public transport + bike + walk) use for a major city in Australia despite having only buses for public transport.
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I saw buses in Las Vegas with bikes held outside (and racks inside too) and was quite surprised. Surprised that people actually used bicycles in the US!

The xenophobic view of the USA as a primitive society held by the general population of Britain is definitely not appropriate when it comes to the issue of cycling. Britain is far and away the least cycling-friendly developed nation on the planet.

 

[PeterY]

Yesterday (Sat 17th May) I took my bike on a class 317 and realised just how narrow the door way area is. I normally travel on 321's, 350's, 378's and S-Stock with my bike. With wide doorways it's much easier manoeuvre my bike around when trains are busy.

 

[yorkie]

Well, why not, instead of the bike being took on the train in the first place, have a provision similar to the Boris Bikes at each station where you have to, as an example, you'd have to pay a security of £2 and you'd get to use it, and any other stations for a period of 24 hours (with a incremental increase of £1/ 24 hours for a maximum of 72 hours). Then there would be no need in the first place to take cycles on a train!

Even at stations like Ulleskelf?

Also how would your idea cope with people wanting to cycle Matlock-Buxton, or Bishop Auckland to Durham?

Basically your suggestion only really works for commuting purposes from busy stations, and this is already the case in central London (and should be rolled out more widely, but the entire country is likely to be unviable!)

 

[Emyr]

About twice a week, I start my morning in Bolton, ride 2 miles to the station, take a train to Manchester and change for a Crewe stopper to leafy Cheshire where I ride another 3.5 miles.

Since the timetable change, I now have to ride from Salford Central to Manchester Piccadilly, 1.5 miles, as the 0635 TPEx Airport (via Piccadilly) has beeen replaced by NT's 6:40 to Victoria.

Without the rail network's provision for bicycles, this journey would take such a long time I'd be better off cycling the 30 mile direct route.

 

[Rapidash]

Alot of cyclists use the services in Devon to get around, especially those headed to Exeter. In a rare bit of positive useage, the 143's are excellent bike trains, you can fit about 12 even on the short formed services! You will have to have slow-mo Matrix style kung-fu duals with the prams, though.

Peak time bannage sounds like a plan, though.

 

[higthomas]

Well, why not, instead of the bike being took on the train in the first place, have a provision similar to the Boris Bikes at each station where you have to, as an example, you'd have to pay a security of £2 and you'd get to use it, and any other stations for a period of 24 hours (with a incremental increase of £1/ 24 hours for a maximum of 72 hours). Then there would be no need in the first place to take cycles on a train!

This sort of thing does exist at some stations, e.g. most in London plus some others with things like this: http://www.bromptondock.co.uk/

I think this will only be genuinly be usefull though if we have other docks as with boris bikes or http://www.scratchbikes.co.uk/

 

[CockneySparrow]

There should be a peak time charge of £10 a day to take a bike on the train during peak times, its a massive problem all over the network, all because commuters favour 1 bike rather than 2

I use one bike from my house to the station then lock it up, go on the train then at the destination use the second bike to work

 

[Emyr]

If I left my bike at a train station from 6pm til 8am on a regular basis it wouldn't take long before it was vandalised or stolen.

Good luck trying to persuade the DfT of your excellent intehrated transport solution though.