My idea for restrictions to cycles on trains

[fgwrich]

I'd love to know what an excessive road bike is too, as the professional-standard road bikes tend to be significantly narrower than a plodding hybrid.

The problem is not the use of bicycles, it is the fact there's nowhere to put them, and often the cycle area has tip-up seats too. It's a particular problem on the TPE 185s, and possibly other Desiro trains, because it sets up a conflict where there's no need.

Cycles are no more or less cumbersome than many of the big suitcases I see on airport trains.

I'd love to know what an excessive road bike is too, as the professional-standard road bikes tend to be significantly narrower than a plodding hybrid.

The problem is not the use of bicycles, it is the fact there's nowhere to put them, and often the cycle area has tip-up seats too. It's a particular problem on the TPE 185s, and possibly other Desiro trains, because it sets up a conflict where there's no need.

Cycles are no more or less cumbersome than many of the big suitcases I see on airport trains.

Going slightly off topic for a moment, as a cyclist and rail user one thing that does frustrate me are the cycle spaces and provisions - Cross Country has gone from the decent end space to the where the shop previously was area that can now only take 3 bikes because of the poor layout, whilst SWTs 444s which are rather good with their bike spaces (but unfortunately not for large luggage!) don't quite unfortunately work if like me... one of your bikes is a mountain bike - their wider tyres don't fit in the wheel clamping space, so usually mountain bikes tend to end up being leaned against the inside of the bike area, which then takes up more space...

Alot of cyclists use the services in Devon to get around, especially those headed to Exeter. In a rare bit of positive useage, the 143's are excellent bike trains, you can fit about 12 even on the short formed services! You will have to have slow-mo Matrix style kung-fu duals with the prams, though.

Peak time bannage sounds like a plan, though.

Completely agree with you there, that is genuinely one positive feature I've found of all the Pacer Fleets - The large areas in the ex FNW 142s as used by FGW on the Devon Metro were actually perfect to put bikes and other large luggage into, as well as the 143s.

If I left my bike at a train station from 6pm til 8am on a regular basis it wouldn't take long before it was vandalised or stolen.

Good luck trying to persuade the DfT of your excellent intehrated transport solution though.

Very much same here. While I do tend to leave my bike in my local station, that's only because I can leave it in an area covered by CCTV, and behind the ticket barriers. SWT have at least become rather useful in this respect by introducing completely fenced off areas at some of their stations which require you to have a dedicated swipe card sold through them, but unfortunately it's only as good as it's users are and give a thief a chance by innocently letting them in under false pretences and....

 

[jon0844]

I do think that despite increasing populations, we do need to consider that in the future we need to build rolling stock that can cope with;

Bikes
Buggies
Bags
and
Bigger people!

If that is going to mean bigger, more open, areas and tip down seats then so be it.

We may never go back to having a guards van, but we can't just expect people to travel without carrying lots of stuff. With the surge in public transport usage in general, and a desire to get people out of the car, we have to accept that people will want to carry what might have otherwise been carried in a car.

If that means giving up 1/3 of a carriage for storing things other than people, then I can see it having to happen in order to make the rest of the train a more pleasant environment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

its a massive problem all over the network, all because commuters favour 1 bike rather than 2

I use one bike from my house to the station then lock it up, go on the train then at the destination use the second bike to work

It's not as simple as favouring one bike over two.

Even if you're using a knackered old hybrid that cost you £50, chances are that some scrote will either steal it or smash up the wheels if they can't. Using something half decent, which you'll need if you're not commuting a short distance on the flat, just increases these chances.

£50 per replacement soon mounts up. Look at how many bikes are smashed up in the Euston bike shed- one of the better ones, too- if you don't believe me.

If there was somewhere secure for my bike at the "work" end of my journey I'd have no problem leaving it there, even if they charged a fee for it. But there isn't so I don't.

We may never go back to having a guards van

Allowing passengers in the front carriage of high speed trains was the worst thing that happened to the network, in terms of luggage. Discuss.

 

[cjp]

What seems clear is any solution that doesn't involve greater or total restrictions is going to cost money. Perhaps the answer is a charge to convey a bicycle on the train, around the child fare maybe, with the revenue going towards better provision. I don't think additional vehicles for bikes (detachable or permanent) is realistic but how about better secure cycle facilities at stations that would allow those making commuter type journeys to keep a bike at both ends. Alternatively it might pay for more staff to enforce the existing restrictions at the point of boarding, if someone arrives at Kings Cross with a bicycle on a restricted train there is very little that can be done after the event.

Unfortunately dealing with excessive demand with restrictions is a fact of life on our modern railway, that's why the restrictions we have are already there. There are all sorts of ideological arguments against (I'm surprised we haven't had someone suggesting first class is removed to make way for non paying bikes yet) but we are dealing with the reality here.

47513

To your knowledge has any passenger been unable to board or alight because bicycles? I have never seen this happen.

Conversely travelling with a bike I (and my bike) have been left behind as the the doorways were full of standing passengers on more than a score of occasions (even when I could see space or seats even in the body of the carriage). Travelling long distance (with Virgin, Crosss Country and Scotrail and Eastcoast) I have even had to change my day of travel as there have been no spaces to reserve.

As a shining example of busy commuter line that accomodates bicycles I put forward one I travel on - Heathrow Connect. It does have tip up seat areas (disabled have priority) but it also allows cycles (space permitting) in any of their wider entrance vestibules. Each vestibule is signed asking for you to be prepared to move your bike to another partof the train if requested by the on board staff. They also expect you to stay with your bike. It is really no more more than a 20 minute journey but it saves a hour plus cycle ride.
Who knows what it will be like with Crossrail

Suburban trains in Glasgow have dedicated areas for prams and cycles (which are hung vertically).
Certain buses in the Lake District have external racks to carry cycles.

There are other examples but addressing your original point it does seem that the TOC might be using inapproriate carriages/units for the present traffic. Perhaps over time changes can be made rather that adopt your blunt approach of banning cycles?

Oh I would be prepared to pay a flat fare for the carriage of a cycle £1 -£5 depending on the distance.

 

[Tibbs]

To your knowledge has any passenger been unable to board or alight because bicycles? I have never seen this happen.

I have on both LO and LM trains from Euston. The LO is particularly bad as riders often push their bikes across to the opposite door, not thinking that the doors may open that side! I've also seen many peoples' clothes (including mine) soiled because of dirty tyres.

 

[jon0844]

Surely many passengers have been unable to board because of a bike? Sure, many may get on via another set of doors - but I can think of many times there have been bikes blocking the way. Even if you did squeeze on, you'd now be stuck in the vestibule as the bikes would be blocking the aisles, so it would hardly be favourable.

As mentioned, the vestibules on some stock is particularly narrow in comparison to others.

 

[Railblazer]

Cycling is so popular at the moment and it would be a bad idea to ban the bikes. Better use of space would be more appropriate.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Better use of space would be more appropriate.

The problem here is that if a train is fairly empty then there is little or no problem with finding a space for a bike. The problem arises if the train gets crowded, then passengers will stand in every possible space, and that will include any bike space.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm a Cambridge cyclist, and I find 47513 Severn's description of us as offensive- shows his true colours though.

It's almost certain that the cyclists he's complaining about are breaking the existing cycle policy.

The new cycle park at Cambridge station has been getting far too delayed. For those unaware, the plan is to replace the current ~900 racks (there's estimated to be 1200 bikes parked most days!) with 2500-3000 racks in a multistory cycle park. The last time I saw a design it incorporated provision to extend upwards if/when this proves to be too small.

However, it is complicated. I commute to work about 11 miles. My options are to cycle the whole way (40 minutes good exercise), arriving sweaty and having a shower, or to cycle to the station, take a train and and cycle from the other end, much more gently. I get a southbound Greater Anglia train. Unlike the FCC trains, on departure from Cambridge these are quiet at peak hours. There's really no issue with cycles on these trains.

So if you're going to try to enforce the "no bikes" on the FCC trains you really need to try to do so in a way that does't impact those who are travelling with another operator- one way would of course be to annoy the FCC passengers by sending all their trains from platform 7/8!

The dutch, with their uniformly high levels of cycling, charge €6 a day for you to take a bike on the train, and ban them from peak services. But only Cambridge has anywhere near Dutch cycling rates- and that tails off sharply beyond the city.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I have on both LO and LM trains from Euston. The LO is particularly bad as riders often push their bikes across to the opposite door, not thinking that the doors may open that side! I've also seen many peoples' clothes (including mine) soiled because of dirty tyres.

I've seen on ATW Chester to Manchester services. Bike blocking in the vestibules and doors. Blooming ridiculous some times in the Peak.

 

[Rapidash]

Its a fairly common occurrence down here, especially Exmouth to Central, and Central to Newton Abbot. I'm sure the guards have a standard issue wiffle bat for such instances.

 

[Class377]

There's only one thing I've found bikes to be positive for on trains - if a train is fully loaded, and someone's left one in the vestibule, I've just found a seat for my journey!

In all seriousness, whenever I've seen people try to get bikes onto trains, they've barged in front of other passengers and blocked off loads of room in the vestibules. I don't care whether it's because the train's been designed badly, if it doesn't go in there properly, don't try and get it in there! It makes even less sense when they're going for a short hop, since it seems to defeat the point of cycling (if you only like going short distances on your bike instead of the whole way, you could....walk?)

I'd be in favour of charging a child fare for the journey for a bike unless it's stowed away (like they do in a HST) for the journey. Quite simply, if people on here make a big fuss about charging for bags on seats, why shouldn't they charge for bikes that take up room for 4 or 5 people?

 

[radamfi]

In Adelaide ...

in Canberra ...

the USA ...

Britain is far and away the least cycling-friendly developed nation on the planet.

Actually all three countries are among the least cycle-friendly developed nations. Same goes for Canada, Ireland and New Zealand. Basically, anywhere that speaks English as a first language doesn't have a clue.

The fact that few people cycle in those countries means that it is actually more viable for trains to carry them. That is why bikes are banned on trains in peak time in the Netherlands, there would be simply too much demand. Instead, the Dutch have elaborate parking facilities, including paid, secure parking where you can leave your bike overnight safely, to enable you to cycle from the station to your place of work. Alternatively, you can hire a bike instantly at a swipe of a card.

So you don't need to carry your bike on the train.

 

[jopsuk]

Indeed. Buses that carry two bikes per bus are something that can only work where cycle use is tiny.

Most dutch station cycling is not "secure" and is free. For a station of its size/passenger numbers, Cambridge's proposed new cycle park will genuinely be comparable to Dutch scale facilities.

 

[radamfi]

The Dutch use the paid parking, not just because it is secure, but also because you can find a parking space without fuss. I wouldn't leave my bike all day and certainly not overnight at any station in the UK, except at places where there are secure facilities, such as Leeds and Haywards Heath, and at the TfGM Cycle Hubs.

The new underground parking at Rotterdam Centraal has 3,800 free spaces and 1,400 paid ones. That will be dwarfed by the parking currently being built in Utrecht which will be the biggest in the world with 12,500 spaces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynIRAhoqoBc

Most towns in the Netherlands also have free secure parking, but in the town centre rather than at the station. So if the station is close by you can park in the free secure parking and walk to the station.

 

[lookingforit35]

One must also take into account the great unspoken truth. Some cyclists (note, some) stink of sweat before they board due to their bike journey. It can be rather unpleasant being near them.

I know I'll be shot down, but I only speak as I find.

 

[jopsuk]

That will be dwarfed by the parking currently being built in Utrecht which will be the biggest in the world with 12,500 spaces.
.

On a bike spaces per passenger, 3000 at Cambridge is more than Utrecht!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One must also take into account the great unspoken truth. Some cyclists (note, some) stink of sweat before they board due to their bike journey. It can be rather unpleasant being near them.

I know I'll be shot down, but I only speak as I find.

There's rather a lot of non-cycling passengers, even in suits, that have poor personal hygiene. Especially if they're fat...

 

[cjp]

One must also take into account the great unspoken truth. Some cyclists (note, some) stink of sweat before they board due to their bike journey. It can be rather unpleasant being near them.

I know I'll be shot down, but I only speak as I find.

Yes and let us not forget the heavy smokers smelling of ashtrays
and
the curry eaters with an excess of garlic
and
People with loud or leaking earpieces.

Just who are approved to travel in your carriage?
Shot down enough yet?

 

[Class377]

Yes and let us not forget the heavy smokers smelling of ashtrays
and
the curry eaters with an excess of garlic
and
People with loud or leaking earpieces.

Just who are approved to travel in your carriage?
Shot down enough yet?

How many of them actually bring with them a mode of transport that would mean they don't need to take the train? Also, none of them take up space for 4 or 5 other people!

 

[Emyr]

On a 185, you can fit 1 bike and 8 people standing in the space that would be taken by 4 passengers sitting on the flip-down seats.

I'd remove the flip seats to resolve the ambiguity.

 

[cjp]

How many of them actually bring with them a mode of transport that would mean they don't need to take the train?

I think you are letting your prejudices overcome your reasoning.
How many passengers to your mind need to take the train ie have no alternative way of making the journey rather than taking the train just because it suits them?
Would you seriously expect me to,cycle all the way to say Bicester or Colchester and beyond every day I go there? A local journey can be the begining of a much longer trip.

 

[jopsuk]

if we had plenty of good parking reliably at both ends of most common commuter journies, and more companies were involved in the scheme, the "Cycle To Work" tax relief bike purchase scheme actually allows you to buy two bikes in one go.

 

[lookingforit35]

Yes and let us not forget the heavy smokers smelling of ashtrays
and
the curry eaters with an excess of garlic
and
People with loud or leaking earpieces.

Just who are approved to travel in your carriage?
Shot down enough yet?

Of course no-one needs my approval to use public transport, just a valid ticket, and I've never said otherwise. I've purely pointed out that some folk smell after physical exercise. Perhaps I may have hit a nerve..............?

 

[DownSouth]

Of course no-one needs my approval to use public transport, just a valid ticket, and I've never said otherwise. I've purely pointed out that some folk smell after physical exercise. Perhaps I may have hit a nerve..............?

Let's be fair though, many passengers stink despite the obvious evidence of doing no physical exercise spilling out above their belt.

 

[The Ham]

There are three reasons that people take their bike on a train:
1 - lack of cycle parking
2 - poor bus services, meaning that there is no alternitive other than a long walk
3 - need it both ends due to 2 and due to 1 and/or poor security can't use 2 cycles

Yes the TOC's are unable to do much about 2, but they should do a LOT more to provide enough cycle parking at stations. There are many stations where there is a lack of provision which leads to more cycles being carried on the trains. i.e. if you can not lock your bike at the station but need it to get there, then you might as well take it on the train. Yes such provission will not remove all the cycles from the trains, but even if it only removes a few cycles from the busiest services then it would make a noticable differance.

Until at least 90% the stations have emough cycle storage at or within a 400m walk distance so that there is at least 10% spare spaces or space for 4 biikes at 10 am on a term time weekday, which ever is greater, then TOC's should not be able to expand or bring in more cycle restrictions. They should also have to demonstrate that they have plans to provide more cycle parking at most stations should the restrictions cause a lack of cycle spaces at those stations.

When SWT's brought in their cycle restrictions there was already a lack of cycle storage at many of their stations, the ban then made it worse and it has taken a long time for there to be much of an improvement in the avaibal enumber of cycle spaces (even though the number of cycle spaces at some stations has rocketed the demand has kept pace). However, even now they would fail the above requirement. I doubt that they are the only TOC that has not enough cycle storage at a number of their stations, I just highlight them as an example.

Charging for cycles can cause bigger problems. In that if a cyclist has to pay for their cycle they could be more inclinded to kick up a fuss if they have a problem doing so or there isn't space on the train. Especially if the problem was caused by a buggy (carried for free) whose ocupent is also carried for free.

I agree that cycle hire is also a good option, as although a manned system would not be viable I can see that the cycle locker system (like that at some of the SWT's stations, where a folding bike is hirable from £2.50 for up to 24 hours depending on your membership) could be rolled out to a lot of the stations on a network. As although it would not be viable to be at every station as long as it was at key stations then chances are most people would be able to hire one at one of the stations that they use for their journey (i.e. at the start or finish station or at the station where they change trains). It would really come into its own if season tickets allowed people to hire the bikes without having to pay the yearly membership price whilst their season ticket was valid (i.e. standard class season tickets holders would pay the £5 per day rate or £2.50 a day rate if they paid a small top up, whilst fist class season ticket holders would pay £2.50 per day rate).

 

[LowLevel]

Unfortunately we have a railway system that is now required to generate profit. Spending money on business you aren't actually interested in is pointless, it's easier, cheaper and causes better feedback from most passengers to have enforced restrictions.

I know of flows that have maybe 20-30 cyclists over a day. This is of the few thousand using that journey every day. Unfortunately the heavy majority of said cyclists turn up for the same 3 trains and travel just over 10 miles, generally wedging the bike space and vestibules and being abusive if they are refused.

It would be better customer service overall and operationally to ban them from the problem trains entirely because having been asked, the answer is 'why should we have two bikes and use storage' - so you'll never economically cater for them with their comparatively cheap tickets.

Just the other day I was working a train and an idiot couldn't see what the problem was with putting his bike straight across the disabled toilet door. Along with mumsnet types with giant unfolding pushchairs they are the most self interested passengers I've come across.

 

[mchunt]

Why don't we just have 1 carriage on trains that is the same as the overground trains?

At peak times more room for standing, off peak more conveNient for cyclists and people with buggies.

I'm a cyclist who uses the train with my bike mainly in one direction for leisure purposes - returning from long rides or emergency escape (bad weather, mechanicals or just stayed out to late without lights). I am not a cyclist who jus.t goes hitchin letchworth - I bike that everyday and can't understand why anyone would put the bike on the train for that journey but they do (the hill isn't that bad!)

I also now have a 1year old and taking the buggy on the train can be challenging particular as hitchin/letchworth don't have lifts. We are effectively banned from peak trains and off peak it can be tricky not to be a nuisance. It would be nice to have a train which could cope. We do pay for the little one as we have a family railcard and cheaper to use that and buy him a ticket than just buy our tickets.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What drivel is this? :-

How many of them actually bring with them a mode of transport that would mean they don't need to take the train? Also, none of them take up space for 4 or 5 other people!

I do.

But my journey from Newcastle to London and back wouldn't be achievable if I didn't used the train for the big bit in the middle (the 300 miles in the middle. Each way.).

And passengers are not permitted in the DVT where I secure my bike.

So your complaint has no bearing on my bringing the bike on the train, as I do most days that I travel by rail.
I'm glad I clearly don't share space on East Coast trains with you.

 

[Ironside]

Why don't we just have 1 carriage on trains that is the same as the overground trains?

At peak times more room for standing, off peak more conveNient for cyclists and people with buggies.

I'm a cyclist who uses the train with my bike mainly in one direction for leisure purposes - returning from long rides or emergency escape (bad weather, mechanicals or just stayed out to late without lights). I am not a cyclist who jus.t goes hitchin letchworth - I bike that everyday and can't understand why anyone would put the bike on the train for that journey but they do (the hill isn't that bad!)

I also now have a 1year old and taking the buggy on the train can be challenging particular as hitchin/letchworth don't have lifts. We are effectively banned from peak trains and off peak it can be tricky not to be a nuisance. It would be nice to have a train which could cope. We do pay for the little one as we have a family railcard and cheaper to use that and buy him a ticket than just buy our tickets.

When cycling in Germany the double deck trains had flip up seats on the lower floor so plenty of room for bikes. I know that double deckers arent practical in the uk but having a multi use carriage would make sense especially if more sophisticated movable seating could be invented.

 

[Qwerty133]

Unfortunately we have a railway system that is now required to generate profit. Spending money on business you aren't actually interested in is pointless, it's easier, cheaper and causes better feedback from most passengers to have enforced restrictions.

I know of flows that have maybe 20-30 cyclists over a day. This is of the few thousand using that journey every day. Unfortunately the heavy majority of said cyclists turn up for the same 3 trains and travel just over 10 miles, generally wedging the bike space and vestibules and being abusive if they are refused.
.

*cough* 07:52 Leicester to Loughborough *cough*. This post sums up that service up perfectly... but of course whenever I've mentioned it to EMT there is no problem with bikes on said service. :roll: